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event horizon · Oct 06, 2009

The apostles that did not follow Pauline Christian doctrines but rather remained true to Jesus' teachings (as believed by the Jewish Christians) were the ones that were wary of Paul's changing of Jesus' mission.

Unfortunately, there is no apostolic succession between the Ebionites and the earthly followers of Jesus.

Do you want to try again (or will you claim that because the Ebionites venerated James this meant there was a direct connection?)

Oh, and care to show the differences in belief between the Jewish-Christians, as documented by Justin Martyr and Epiphanius, with those of Paul?

I'll go ahead and ignore that this has nothing to do with your original claim and my question asking for you to substantiate it.

event horizon · Oct 06, 2009

For anyone reading along:

shafique wrote:The other disciples were not comfortable with the change in message after this point - that the message should be taken to Gentiles

So far, shafique seems unable or unwilling to simply answer a question to his own post.

What source says the *disciples* did not want the message of Jesus to be taken to the Gentiles?

Does a historian make this claim, if so, why doesn't shafique simply post this historian who explicitly says this, as opposed to citing one sentence that is unrelated to the issue at hand?

shafique · Oct 06, 2009

What historian makes the claim that Jewish Christians did not agree with Pauline Christian theological innovations? Pretty much every historian who has written on the subject of the differences between the two!

The Jewish Christians believed (as do Muslims) that Jesus taught his disciples that he wasn't God and that his message was only meant for followers of the laws of Judaism - as Jesus clearly stated in the Bible that he did not come to change Mosaic law.

Next I guess you'll be asking me to prove water is wet!

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 06, 2009

The Jewish Christians believed (as do Muslims) that Jesus taught his disciples that he wasn't God and that his message was only meant for followers of the laws of Judaism

You really do seem to be making a point on how obtuse you are. What don't you understand that there were different sects within Jewish Christianity - with some siding with the decision of the Jerusalem council and others, later Pharisaic Jews according to your own author, who maintained that Gentiles should follow Jewish dietary laws?

Are you having a difficult time reading plain English?

What historian makes the claim that Jewish Christians did not agree with Pauline Christian theological innovations? Pretty much every historian who has written on the subject of the differences between the two!

You must not have read very many historians. I would re-explain this to you, but I would simply waste my time. Please refer to my post and the quotes from church fathers on the Nazarenes by Justin Martyr and Epiphanius.

shafique · Oct 07, 2009

Your faith in official church history is touching.

I refer you to the quote I gave from Father Murphy-O'Conner in the 'Contradictions in NT' thread - which shows that your views are at odds with historical fact.

I agree that the official church history downplays the differences between Pauline and Jewish Christianity - it has to. The problem for you is that the Bible and official church history is now commonly known to be unreliable as it contains fabrications written by Pauline Christians.

It is a matter of choice/opinion which of the various schools of thought is correct - whether the Jewish Christians' view of Jesus' message (the ones who disagreed fundamentally with Pauline Christianity) or those of the Pauline Christians (or even those Pauline Christian history says 'half' agreed with Paul).

The point is that official church history is highly suspect. The Bible itself contains forged verses/letters , as you now have had to concede.

Biblical scholars acknowledge that there are contradictions because of these fabrications (you say there are no contradictions).

I'm not asking you to take my word, just the scholars you have quoted and eminent experts such as Father O'Conner - quoted again below.

shafique wrote:eh requested I produce references from (more) theologians to back up what Kung is quoted as saying about the insertion of mysogynistic verses into the NT.

Let me therefore add one more reference (more can be added if required - but eh, can work on this one for now).

Father Jerome Murphy-O'Connor, O.P.:

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 are not a Corinthian slogan, as some have argued…, but a post-Pauline interpolation…. Not only is the appeal to the law (possibly Genesis 3:16) un-Pauline, but the verses contradict 1 Corinthians 11:5. The injunctions reflect the misogyny of 1 Timothy 2:11-14 and probably stem from the same circle.

New Jerome Biblical Commentary, edited by Raymond E. Brown, S.S., Joseph A. Fitzmyer, S.J, and Roland E. Murphy, O.Carm., Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice Hall, 1990, pages 811-812)

So not only does this theologian say the verses are contradictory (obviously they are), but that they are forgeries.

I trust this is an adequate reference for you eh - if not, let me know, I have others - but the Good Father is a leading authority on Paul:

Jerome Murphy-O'Connor is Professor of New Testament at the Ecole Biblique et Archeologique Francaise in Jerusalem and a leading authority on the historical Jesus and Saint Paul. His other publications include Paul: A Critical Life and Paul, His Story .

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 07, 2009

Where's the beef? You quote from some Biblical scholars who say there were fabrications and I can quote from many scholars on the Koran who say the Koran contains contradictions and the Koran abrogates its own passages.

The point is that official church history is highly suspect.

Cool. Thanks for the history lesson.

I agree that the official church history downplays the differences between Pauline and Jewish Christianity

I wouldn't know. I tend to read secular historians and scholars. Your argument is really with modern historians who have re-appraised Church history and the New Testament. It is their conclusions, for the most part, that I am reporting. But hey, I'd love for you to give me your opinion of New Testament scholars such as Dunn and the new perspective?

I'm sure you've read his books just like you've read the NT.

I'm not asking you to take my word, just the scholars you have quoted and eminent experts such as Father O'Conner

The funny thing is, is that you're presenting this information as if it was 'news' to me. I can only assume you came across it just recently as a result of your googling and felt the need to share it like a three year old who must tell others how old he is or of the doggy he rubbed.

shafique · Oct 07, 2009

Well, I'm glad the information that I'm presenting isn't news to you.

Given that I've quoted Father O'Conner stating that the Bible contains forged verses which contradict other parts of the Bible - then I take it you knew I was right all along when I stated the Bible contains contradictory verses which were inserted by Pauline Christians (as O'Conner et al state).

Glad we clarified that.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 07, 2009

Where's the beef? You quote from some Biblical scholars who say there were fabrications and I can quote from many scholars on the Koran who say the Koran contains contradictions and the Koran abrogates its own passages.

shafique · Oct 07, 2009

Why did you ask me to produce a reference from a NT scholar then?

Anyway - glad you don't disagree that Father O'Conner is a reputable Biblical scholar/theologian who has written books about Paul.

It is interesting that he outright contradicts your view of this passage - that it is not only a contradiction, but a fabrication.

I'm also happy to compare and contrast the internal consistency of the Quran with that of the Bible - no Muslim scholar, to my knowledge, says that the Quran had verses/chapters added to it by later authors.

Anyway - you asked for the reference from a NT scholar, I provided you with another one. I presume you're satisfied now that your view is not shared by O'Conner?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 07, 2009

+It is interesting that he outright contradicts your view of this passage - that it is not only a contradiction, but a fabrication.

It's also interesting that the views of orthodox Islam disagree with your opinion that the Koran does not contain contradictory passages. One must choose who to believe - Arabic speaking scholars on the Koran, or someone whose knowledge of religion seems to derive from an Ahmadiyya website.

Why did you ask me to produce a reference from a NT scholar then?

If I did ask you to produce a quote from a NT scholar, it might have been in relation to your claim that the apostles were distrustful of Paul's missionary work amongst Gentiles.

For some reason, however, I guess you found out through your googling that the authorship of the second letter attributed to Peter is in dispute and decided to post this strawman.

Still not sure why you continue to bring up what is widely known, but good for you that learned something new.

Anyway - you asked for the reference from a NT scholar, I provided you with another one.

Yes, that's partially correct. What is more accurate is what I'm asking for.

shafique · Oct 08, 2009

event horizon wrote:
+It is interesting that he outright contradicts your view of this passage - that it is not only a contradiction, but a fabrication.

It's also interesting that the views of orthodox Islam disagree with your opinion that the Koran

Cool, we don't disagree that O'Conner flatly contradicts your view on this verse. The Bible contains contradictory verses inserted by Pauline Christians according to this eminent Biblical scholar and Dominican Monk - and the quote comes from a recent book talking about the compilation of the Bible and its canonisation.

Therefore, your claims do seem to be a bit hollow - but I admire your chutzpah to argue that there aren't contradictions in the Bible despite the verdict of the likes of O'Conner.

event horizon wrote:Still not sure why you continue to bring up what is widely known, but good for you that learned something new.

If you look at the thread NT contradictions, you will see that there the verse discussed there is what O'Conner states is a contradictory fabricated insertion, you say is not a contradiction.

You now say it was widely known that the Bible contains contradictions and contains fabricated verses. I TOTALLY agree - and I've been saying this all along. Yet you have repeatedly asked for references from scholars. QED.

Anyway, glad we agree that O'Conner agrees with me that this first contradiction is a contradiction and that this is a widely known fact that is at odds with your assertion that the Bible 'contains no contradictions'.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Oct 08, 2009

You now say it was widely known that the Bible contains contradictions and contains fabricated verses.

Please try and read. I don't recall saying that the New Testament contains either contradictions or interpolations.

What I said, is that the belief that the New Testament contains interpolations is widely known.

Really, your inability to comprehend the English language / twist the written word is remarkable. Is English your first language (if it isn't, I won't be so critical)?

Yet you have repeatedly asked for references from scholars. QED.

Once again, another remarkable failure to comprehend what I was asking for.

I was asking for which sources (and I extended this to the views of scholars since +you+ were unable to state which NT passage or primary sources make the claim) state that the apostles of Jesus were distrustful of Paul's missionary work amongst Gentiles.

Did you make your claim up while pontificating (as I suspect) or did you actually, at the time, read this from a historian/theologian?

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