Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk Philosophy and Religion Forums

Now that eh has expanded his count of terrorist converts from the UK to now include the US, it allows us to look at the phenomenon of Christian terrorism in the US.

First, this is what an Atheist site lists as Biblical commandments for Christians to kill non-Christians:

http://www.atheistrev.com/2005/03/bible-commands-christians-to-kill.html

And here is an entry from February this year about a Christian terrorist:

Christian Terrorist Strikes in Colorado

Given that their bible commands Christians to kill non-believers, I suppose we atheists should consider ourselves quite lucky that this sort of thing does not happen more often. Sadly, there is nothing unusual about religiously-motivated murder. What makes this case out of Colorado noteworthy is that the gunman was quoted by witnesses as saying, "If you're not a Christian, you're going to die" as he opened fire.

Eldora manager Brian Mahon, fatally wounded by the gunman, identified himself as Catholic. Evidently, the shooter did not consider this sufficiently Christian.

Gunman Derik Bonestroo may have been many things. He may have been emotionally disturbed. But it seems that one thing is clear: he was a Christian terrorist.

http://www.atheistrev.com/2009/02/christian-terrorist-strikes-in-colorado.html

Now, of course I wouldn't be troll-like and argue that the above are representative of what good Christians believe, or what Jesus taught - but it does demonstrate that naive empiricism is a trap easily fallen into (whether you are an atheist or an Islamophobe living in the Orientalist past!)

That said, given that eh-oh refuses to condemn Goldstein the Jewish Terrorist, perhaps he does believe in the Biblical injunctions to kill non-believers???

Cheers,
Shafique

I think that the religion must be for the people. When the religion is against the life of the people same that religion is?

I'm really glad shafique has created this thread so that now Christian militancy around the world can be monitored.

Iraq hit by triple car bombing
Deleted for space.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middl ... 76480.html

You're quite welcome.

It is certainly interesting to contrast the media coverage of the non-Muslim terror groups - not least the Christian ones.

As we have a thread contrasting the statistics of terrorist acts vs the Fox News type hype, there doesn't seem much sense in repeating the facts here as well.


Cheers,
Shafique

You started this thread on Christian terrorists - Christian fundies who are motivated (according to their own words) to carry out violent attacks for the purpose of establishing a religious theocracy.

I agree with your definition of a Christian fundie and I am documenting violent attacks carried out by Christian extremists just as you have done in the OP.

Hopefully Christians will begin to question the texts and teachings of their religion after reading this thread. After all, it should come as no surprise that a religious text which commands Christians to wage warfare against infidels, dehumanizes unbelievers, and guarantees immediate paradise for its holy warriors who kill and are killed fighting unbelievers would inspire so much violence.

Again, thank you for this thread. It sheds light on the fruits of the New Testament, with its violent commands, and the Sunnah of Jesus and the early apostles, who waged offensive warfare, engaged in slavery, banditry and massacres.

Thanks again for this thread.

Excellent - I'm glad you took notice of the thread's title.

I totally agree - Christian fundamentalist terrorist groups should indeed be condemned.

I also extend this to Jewish terrorists such as Goldstein - but that is another thread and another unanswered question.

I see you are reverting to form and re-hashing your beliefs of a violent early Islam - fair enough, but that is for another thread and not really relevant to current day Christian terrorism.


Cheers,
Shafique

It's worth just reviewing what I wrote in the initial thread:

shafique wrote:Now, of course I wouldn't be troll-like and argue that the above are representative of what good Christians believe, or what Jesus taught - but it does demonstrate that naive empiricism is a trap easily fallen into (whether you are an atheist or an Islamophobe living in the Orientalist past!)

That said, given that eh-oh refuses to condemn Goldstein the Jewish Terrorist, perhaps he does believe in the Biblical injunctions to kill non-believers???

I presume that the last question is still to be answered?

Cheers,
Shafique

What is remarkable is that you feel the need to bump this thread to remind people that Christian terrorists also exist, despite the fact that so much killings of Muslims is taking place now-a-days. Thanks for this.

I guess that you wanted to make the point that if misguided Islamophobes say that Muslims committing acts of violence are using the Quran to justify their actions, then the same argument can be used for the violence carried out by Christian terrorists - for they carry out acts of violence because of their religious beliefs.

You would also be making the same point about Jewish Terrorists such as Baruch Goldstein - who used the Bible as a justification for killing unarmed worshippers.

Thanks for highlighting these facts for us - that it is not only Muslims killing (and dying) in the name of religion.

Cheers,
Shafique

I take Christian terrorists at their own word that the texts and teachings of Christianity is what drives them to carry out terror attacks.

It also helps when they supply their manifestos, communiques, and fatwas with numerous New Testament passages of Jesus waging offensive wars or the commands in the New Testament of Jesus calling for perpetual warfare against unbelievers (in addition to the passages which say holy warriors will gain immediate entry into paradise if they die whilst killing unbelievers).

Cool - the examples I gave in the opening thread are indeed Christians who use their beliefs to justify killing others.

I specifically chose those who unambiguously are killing people because of their belief of the Bible.

It is good that eh takes them at their own words. However, I didn't read a condemnation of these Christian Terrorists - although I think it was implied. Bravo - at least this is a bit better than the refusal to condemn Baruch Goldstein, the Jewish Terrorist who is venerated by some.

Cheers,
Shafique

No problems shafique. I was only adding to your one example of a mentally depressed man who killed another man in a shooting spree by all of these examples of Christians who have carried out suicide bombings - or in New Testament speak, martyrdom operations.

You're welcome too.

I'll gloss over the fact you seem to be condoning/excusing the Christian terrorist's who do justify their killings with their faith. There are those who, like you, refuse to condemn Baruch Goldstein as a Jewish Terrorist and venerate his actions - just like there are those who celebrate the killings of doctors who carry out abortions.

However, I don't generalise and condemn Judaism or Christianity because of the actions of Jewish and Christian terrorists who use the Bible to justify their acts of terrorism.

It is interesting that in this thread we haven't seen a condemnation of the terrorism committed in the name of the Bible from you.

Cheers,
Shafique

I thought I've condemned Christian suicide bombings in this thread left and right.

Once again, I condemn Christian suicide bombers who use the texts and doctrines of Christianity to wage holy war against unbelievers and condemn the passages in the New Testament which say to attack unbelievers, demonize and dehumanize infidels and call for martyrdom for those Christian holy warriors who, after being whipped into a frenzy by the militant, intolerant and violent passages in the New Testament, are told they will enter Paradise if they are killed whilst killing unbelievers.

Undoubtedly, these passages are directly responsible for contemporary Christian terrorism that is displayed on a daily basis, including the daily suicide bombings that seems to strike a new country every week.

Apologies - I must have confused your continuing non-condemnation of Jewish Terrorists with this thread.

I'm glad you join me in condemning the contemporary Christian terrorism taking place in the name of Christianity. I also join you in condemning terrorist acts being committed by Muslims in the name of Islam (or just terrorism in general, whatever the justification).

It's good to agree.

Shame you can't join me in condemning Baruch Goldstein as a Jewish Terrorist - but hey, why focus on the negatives?

Cheers,
Shafique

I have to say, I am impressed the way in which you keep bumping this thread about Christian terrorism every time that Muslims carry out terrorist attacks - it is a good thing you remind us that despite the media coverage, Christian and Jewish terrorist groups also use the Bible to justify killing of innocents.

Very enlightening of you.

It is a shame that you continue to refuse to condemn Jewish Terrorists though - but hey, the world isn't perfect.

Cheers,
Shafique

This list was brought to my attention - a whole bunch of terror cells in the USA:

http://www.commonplacebook.com/current_events/politics/christian_terro.shtm

And this of another Christian terrorist from 2007 (again in the US - there seems to be a rich seam of Bible-basing-bombers there!):

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-blumenthal/diary-of-a-christian-terr_b_49167.html

And here's a story of 8 Christian Terrorists arrested for murder - link has pictures of the eight 'hill billies'/rednecks:

http://muslimmatters.org/2008/11/12/8-c ... or-murder/

Staying with the Americas, the Bolivian priest who hijacked a plane after receiving a revelation this year (on 9/9/09) - another Christian terrorist:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/centralamericaandthecaribbean/mexico/6165084/Mexico-plane-hijacking-Bolivian-priest-behind-midair-9-9-9-attack.html


And finally, a longish rant about Christian terrorism - some good points for eh to address (although I can predict he'll just blame the Muslims - that seems to be his standard response! ) :
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/christian_terrorist_organizations.htm

Cheers,
Shafique

Thanks shafique - it's always interesting to read more on Christian terror attacks, including attacks where there have been no arrests or suspects (just go ahead and assume Christian 'fundamentalists' carried them out I spose) and a 'hijacking' of a flight by a priest who wanted to warn the Mexican president of an earthquake.

Here are some more attacks by Christian terrorists too. [deleted as just listing attacks in Iraq]

event horizon wrote:Thanks shafique - it's always interesting to read more on Christian terror attacks, including attacks where there have been no arrests or suspects (just go ahead and assume Christian 'fundamentalists' carried them out I spose) and a 'hijacking' of a flight by a priest who wanted to warn the Mexican president of an earthquake.

You're quite welcome.

The story about the 8 who were convicted of murder and whose photos were published I thought was particularly apt.

They are the type of people who, like you, would not condemn Baruch Goldstein either. (By contrast I condemn all terrorists and therefore can't be said to agree with methods or motivation of any Muslim terrorist). They would probably admit to believing in Rapture also, I'd imagine (perhaps I'm stereotyping ... ?? )

But, as I predicted, your response is not one of condemning the Bible-bashing-terrorists - but to play the Fox News Headline game and blame the Muslims!

Cheers,
Shafique

What was that - did you say something about posting something not relevant to this thread about Christians who kill people because of their views from the Bible?

Surely not.

(And you didn't explain your obsession either - but then again, you didn't explain why you refuse to condemn Goldstein and whether it is because he is white and a Jew, nor whether you do believe in Rapture - which would explain a lot of your other 'special' views)


Cheers,
Shafique

You argue that when Christian Convert terrorists kill and say they are just fighting to be independent - this is ok, but when a Muslim targets an occupying soldiers, this is terrorism.

I personally would condemn the killing of innocents as terrorism - but Islamophobes tend to not agree to this definition when Nato, US and Israeli troops claim 'collateral damage' excuse when they kill civilians. Do you now agree with me and call Israeli actions acts of Terrorism!!?

Hmmm.

But then again, given that the stats show that Christian converts caused more terrorist deaths than Muslim Converts (not to say that you only have come up with 6 so far, compared to the hundreds of Christian convert terrorists) - I understand your embarrassment.

It does also show that Christians using the Bible to justify their killings is a continuing problem - so again I thank you for keeping this thread alive (even if your selective quoting makes you look foolish again by giving examples of non-terrorist acts)

Cheers,
Shafique

I repeat my earlier observation that you continue to refuse to condemn white Jewish religous terrorists who kill Muslims and excuse Christian Converts when they commit terrorist acts in the name of liberation of their state - and yet open yourself up to accusations of hypocrisy by implying that Muslims fighting against occupying forces are terrorists.

I happen to agree that all the guys blowing up civilians are criminals and terrorists - from Israelis to Afghans, but you first check the religion and race before you condemn.

Jesus' words about the plank in your own eye are, still, applicable.'

(And all because you are reminded that your quaint views on the Bible and Quran are laughable)

Cheers,
Shafique

Please quote where I have excused the terror attacks carried out by secular Christian and non-Christian members of the nationalist/leftist NLFT?

I see that you are going on the defensive again - all I did was ask you whether your count had reached 7 actual terrorists yet and reminded everyone that you refuse to condemn a white Jewish terrorist who killed Muslims and justified this using the Bible (and therefore you are like those who venerate his actions - for they too refuse to condemn his actions).

If you do join me and condemn all the terrorist acts of the Christian Converts of the NLFT etc, then that is good - we agree that they committed terrorist acts.

Therefore you will agree that my count of 232 is an underestimate of the number of actual Christian Convert terrorists who killed/attacked people whilst serving in the 'National Holy Army' - and let us not forget that there are many instances in the list where people were killed for refusing to convert to Christianity (you can count these instances when you verify that my count of 232 is too low).

I await your updated count (perhaps you have reached 8 by now??) - and your confirmation that Christian Converts have produced more terrorists and killed more people in the same period.

I hope you won't be avoiding the statistics and reverting to your 'quaint' belief that aren't supported by hard facts.

Cheers,
Shafique

I thought you were going to add the millions of victims of the LRA who you now are saying are Christian Terrorists!

If you are right (I don't think you are) - the crimes of the LRA swamp all those listed above.

So - are you really arguing that the genocidal LRA are Christian Terrorists?


Cheers,
Shafique

Interesting - the LRA are now 'genocidal'. I wonder what that makes Iraqi and Algerian Islamist insurgents who have killed far more people in much less time?

event horizon wrote:Interesting - the LRA are now 'genocidal'. I wonder what that makes Iraqi and Algerian Islamist insurgents who have killed far more people in much less time?

Meets my definition of 'genocidal'.

But interesting to hear that you aren't denying they are Christian Terrorists - so do you agree that the millions of victims of the LRA swamp the examples you've given?

I'll leave it to you to count the LRA victims (Edit up: to 2 million IIRC) and compare it with the totals from your list (hey, even throw in Algeria and Iraq if you want - even though you're violating your own definitions of 'terrorists' and actually agreeing with me that we should count civilian victims regardless of 'intentions'. You do realise that opens the door for me to count the victims of born-again Christian George W Bush!)

Cheers,
Shafique

Can you please provide a link that says the LRA killed 2 million people? The wikipedia article puts the death toll around 12.000.

event horizon wrote:Can you please provide a link that says the LRA killed 2 million people? The wikipedia article puts the death toll around 12.000.

The up to 2 million is the total figure of victims - including those who were displaced by the LRA. I'm having trouble getting the figures of injuries/mutilations caused by the LRA.

I haven't got a total death toll yet - hence why in the other thread I've only counted two documented massacres - the Christmas 2008 ones which killed 900 and the 400 or so killed in 2005 in the one incident I've picked out.

There are estimates of children kidnapped which run into the tens of thousands - but there are wide estimates out there of these numbers as well.

Are you still maintaining that the LRA are a Christian Terrorist organisation?

Cheers,
Shafique

Please provide a death toll from the LRA so we can compare deaths caused by LRA terrorists with those caused by Islamist terrorists in Iraq and Algeria (and Thailand and Somalia and the Philippines and Afghanistan and Pakistan and Chechnya and India and Nigeria....)

I didn't see the answer to this question:

shafique wrote:Are you still maintaining that the LRA are a Christian Terrorist organisation?

Cheers,
Shafique