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I agree that if Muhammad had destroyed orchards etc as described by your orientalist friends, then this would indeed be as contemptible as the Israeli destruction of orchards today.

I ask again, do you join me in condemning the crimes against humanity that are carried out by the Israelis? (or are you a fanboi?)

So - make up your mind, either the Israelis have committed acts of crimes against humanity, or they haven't. If they have, do you condemn them - or do you support them?

You refuse to condemn Goldstein for what he is - a religiously motivated terrorist - so perhaps you also agree with Israeli crimes against humanity?

So - make up your mind, either the Israelis have committed acts of crimes against humanity, or they haven't. If they have, do you condemn them - or do you support them?

You refuse to condemn Goldstein for what he is - a religiously motivated terrorist - so perhaps you also agree with Israeli crimes against humanity?

event horizon wrote:But I agree - the actions of Muhammad as recorded by Muslim historians should be condemned and which meet the definition of collective punishment.

event horizon wrote:I'm glad we agree that Muhammad was a war criminal and the passages in the Koran which say for Muslims to emulate him should be ignored.

event horizon wrote:What part of the destruction of vineyards to force a civilian population to surrender is imagined???

Naïve empiricism:

..I call this overload of examples naïve empiricism – selections of anecdotes selected to fit a story do not constitute evidence. Anyone looking for confirmation will find enough of it to deceive himself - and no doubt his peers.

It is also naïve empiricism to provide, in support of some argument, series of eloquent confirmatory quotes by dead authorities. By searching, you can always find someone who made a well-sounding statement that confirms your point of view – and, on every topic, it is possible to find a dead thinker that said the exact opposite.

Umm, the part that isn't true and explained in the fuller explanations of the historical events (which you don't want to read, understandably).

Destruction of al Ta'if's Orchards

What was left for them to do? Muhammad pondered this question for a long while. Suddenly, the thought occurred to him that he had achieved victory over Banu al Nadir and forced their evacuation simply by destroying their orchards. The vineyards of Ta'if were far more important than the orchards of Banu al Nadir and were known throughout Arabia for their produce. It was due to them that the city of al Ta'if acquired the reputation of being a little paradise in the desert. Without further ado, Muhammad gave the order, and the Muslims began systematically to cut down and burn the orchards. Upon discovering this destruction and realizing that Muhammad really meant to spare none of their vineyards, the Ta'if tribesmen sent to him pleading that they would rather give away their vineyards to Muhammad, or to those citizens of al Ta'if-and there were large numbers of them who were bound to Muhammad in blood relationships. Muhammad stopped his men temporarily and called out to the besieged city that he would set free any man who surrendered to him. Twenty people responded to his appeal. From them he learned that enough ammunition and provisions were available that the city could withstand the siege for a very long time. Considering that his own men were anxious to return home and enjoy the fruits of their victory over Hawazin-indeed, that their patience would be at an end if the siege were prolonged-Muhammad ordered the Muslims to withdraw. With the arrival of the new moon (the month of Dhu al Qi'dah) the siege had become one month old, and the holy season during which no war was permitted had begun. Muhammad returned to Makkah with his army, visiting the holy places and performing the lesser pilgrimage or `umrah. He announced that he would resume the war against al Ta'if at the expiration of the holy months.

shafique wrote:Sorry, apart from my previous posts and quotes, I don't have anything more to add.

No war crimes is the conclusion I also arrive at too - but hey, perhaps all the scholars/historians and I are totally wrong and eh is right.

As I said, I refer you to the post about naive empiricism.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:As the quote and historical record shows, the siege of Taif was just that - a siege.

The siege was not a military success and the Muslims raised (i.e. stopped) the siege - because the encampment was well fortified and well-provisioned. The catapaults etc were used against the battlements and were partly successful in making holes in them, but the defenders of Taif fought off the Muslims.

The incident of some of the grape vines being destroyed is in some of the historical accounts, but they don't say that the orchards were raised - on the contrary, it caused the Thaqif to send out a negotiating team and the destruction was stopped.

The Muslims raised the siege and the inhabitants of Taif were left alone, and later most embraced Islam. Taif continued to be known for its fine orchards - including those of Banu Thaqif, but to read some accounts you would think that it was turned into a wasteland by the Muslims.

I understand that many Islamophobic websites are painting this incident as an example of Muslim terrorism - the wanton destruction of whole orchards etc. Looking for agreement - I applaud their view that had this occurred as they descibe it would be totally wrong and therefore would expect they would join me in condemning the Israeli collective punishments against Palestinians.

So eh, do we agree that the Israelis are guilty of the same crimes that you believe Muhammad, pbuh, inflicted on the Thaqif of Taif? And that both should be condemned as collective punishments?


Cheers,
Shafique

The incident of some of the grape vines being destroyed is in some of the historical accounts, but they don't say that the orchards were raised - on the contrary, it caused the Thaqif to send out a negotiating team and the destruction was stopped.