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Cool - it looks like I've overlooked your whole intention of this thread, i.e. to show that the Quran contains contradictory verses when it comes to instructions on how to deal with non-Muslims.

You are saying that 9.29 etc say all non-Muslims need to be fought by Muslims. You are quite clear that this is a universal teaching in your mind, and that we are wrong to argue otherwise.

Correct?

Then you argue that these verses are contradicted by other verses which talk about how to treat non-Muslims, and other verses which state when wars should start, how they should be carried out and when they should stop.

I'm sorry it took so long for me to realise that I do agree with you after all - God in the Quran DOES indeed contradict your interpretation of 9.29 etc.

I totally agree, that if 9.29 was a universal teaching - or if anyone (Muslim or otherwise) believed it to be a universal teaching - then this belief is indeed contradicted by God in the other verses of the Quran.

See - we agree after all.

(Tell me if there's a flaw to the logic - I agree you think 9.29 is universal, and therefore with this view, there are indeed verses in the Quran that contradict this view)

Cheers,
Shafique

Shafique, what verse in the ninth surah says that Jews and Christians - two religions 9:29 explicitly gives Muslims the greenlight to attack, are a military threat to the Muslims.

I mean, you did say this, didn't you?

So, where does the ninth surah say Jews and Christians (people of the book) are a threat to the Muslims?

Why does 9:29 say to attack those who are not Muslims? Kind of strange that the verse spends so much time on who to attack and why but the verse and the surrounding verses do not say that Jews and Christians are to be attacked because they pose a threat.

You think that 9.29 applies to all Jews and Christians - right or wrong?

You are arguing that the other Quranic verses on warfare and how to live with Jews and Christians contradict this interpretation of yours - right? (This is the 'contradiction' you have made in your first point.

I agree with your argument - the other Quranic verses do indeed contradict your interpretation. So where's the argument now?

Are you now saying the Quran does not contain a contradiction?

I totally agree that for there not to be a contradiction, my interpretation of 9.29 requires that the verse only apply to the non-Muslims who fulfil the criteria laid out in other verses of Chapter 9 and the other verses laid out in the previous posts - but you are arguing that there is a contradiction.

Please make up your mind - my interpretation of 9.29 etc means there isn't a contradiction, but your interpretation is contradicted by other verses. Can we at least agree on that - I will concede you think your interpretation is right and you think we're all wrong to interpret 9.29 as we do. One of us is 'seeing' the elephant as a snake - but only one set of arguments leads to the accusation of a 'contradiction'.

I hope I haven't confused you with the logical conclusion of your argument - if so, let me know and I'll try and simplify it for you.

Cheers,
Shafique

Ah, come on now shafique. Surely the question is not that hard to answer.

You said the ninth surah says the Jews and Christians that Muslims are told to wage war against because they are unbelievers posed a military threat to the Muslims.

That's your assertion, not mine.

So, which passage in the ninth surah actually says the Jews and Christians that Muslims are clearly told to wage war against because they are unbelievers says that war should be waged against them because they are a military threat?

Which passage?

9:13?

9:99?

9:19?

Come on, which passage was this again?

Please try and stick to the topic - I now agree with you that the Quranic verses speaking about war contradict your interpretation of 9.29 etc.

Are you now trying to argue that there are no contradictory verses to your interpretation of the verses?

Why do I need to justify that your interpretation is incorrect, when you yourself agree that the other verses contradict your interpretation? (this is not a rhetorical question - let me know if it is unclear).

Re-read the title of this thread if you are confused in any way about the subject matter here.

Cheers,
Shafique

The Muslim belief about the universality of 9:29 and your belief that other verses are actually universal can easily be discussed. But first, I would like you to answer your own claim.

Which verses in the ninth chapter of the Koran say the Jews and Christians posed a military threat to the Muslims?

Come on, it couldn't be that hard. You made the claim, why can't you back it up?

event horizon wrote:The Muslim belief about the universality of 9:29 and your belief that other verses are actually universal can easily be discussed. But first, I would like you to answer your own claim.

I agree the above can be discussed, but this thread is about whether there is a contradiction in the Quran - and you cite 9.29 as a verse which is contradicted by other verses.

I agree with you that your interpretation of 9.29 is contradicted by other verses.


Whether you believe your interpretation of 9.29 is correct is your issue -and has been discussed at length in other posts/threads. Here, we see that you are arguing that your interpretation of 9.29 is contradicted by other verses.

On that we seem to be in agreement.


(The questions you ask on why I believe 9.29 to only apply to those who are a military threat has been answered before in the quotes I've given -it's obvious to me that Ch9 in toto and the other verses referring to Jews and Christians that your interpretation of universality is faulty and the general principles of who to fight given by God in the verses you cite apply here as well. I can't help you if you wish to imagine these verses are universal.)

Cheers,
Shafique

Ok, so we agree that there are no passages in the ninth surah which say the Jews and Christians were a military threat.

That's cool - cuz 9:29 lists the reasons why unbelievers, specifically including people of the book should be fought, and none of the 'grievances' says that the unbelievers were a military threat against the Muslims.

Rather, verse 9:29 clearly says unbelief is the reason why Muslims should fight unbelievers - this is similar to another passages which says Muslims should fight against 'fitnah', but that is a different chapter in the Koran.

Shafique seems to believe that the passages which say other people pose a military threat to the Muslims - the Pagan Meccans in verse 9:13 should really include the Jews and Christians.

Perhaps shafique can specifically cite which passages he believes includes Jews and Christians. As far as I know, every passage that talks of a military threat to the Muslims explicitly says the Pagans of Mecca were a military threat. Nowhere in the ninth chapter, that I know of, does it say that others besides the Pagans are a military threat to the Muslims.

The context of certain passages, such as 9:13, this clarifies any confusion and leaves no doubt who the enemies who pose a military threat to the Muslims are, the Pagans of Mecca, and not the Jews and Christians or anyone other 'unbeliever'.

But hey, perhaps shafique can argue with the mainstream Muslim interpretation of 9:29, which interprets the clear command to wage war against unbelievers for their unbelief as a perpetual command, and explain why their understanding of Arabic, careful reading of the Koran and their knowledge of outside sources are faulty and shafique's views are correct.

It would appear that shafiqe's arguement is not with me, but with mainstream Islam which believes in Koranic abrogation.

Anyways, I'm happy that shafique has recanted his previous claim that the ninth chapter says Jews and Christians posed a military threat to the Muslims.

One only wonders why shafique would make that claim up?

Are you avoiding the logical conclusion of your thread?

Your interpretation of 9.29 is contradicted by other verses of the Quran.

Attempted obfuscation by asking again for things I have just addressed in the last post won't hide this fact.

Do you have another alleged contradiction to deal with?

Cheers,
Shafique

Sure, 9:29 which says to fight against 'unbelievers' because they are non-Muslims vs. 2:193.

Any particular reason why 9:29 is not a universal command but 2:193 is?

So you are avoiding the logical conclusion of this thread?

Whether I think the Quran contains contradictions is moot - to me it is clear it doesn't, because the verses detailing war fare etc are all complimentary - who, when, how etc all make sense.

The point is that you argue that your interpretation of 9.29 is contradicted by other verses.

I totally agree with you on that point. Yet you seem to be avoiding this fact.


Cheers,
Shafique

Wow, that's a winky-dink school of argument. The passages in the Koran do not contradict each other because you do not believe that they do.

How long did it take you to come up with such a convincing argument?

Anyways, I'll wait for you to explain how a passage which says to begin hostilities against unbelievers because they are unbelievers is complementary to the passages you have in mind.

Oh, and who were the Jews and Christians do you believe the Muslims were told to attack?

No it is your argument - unless you've changed it.

YOU argue that God, in the Quran, contradicts YOUR interpretation of 9.29. Have you changed your argument now?

You are right to point out that our reading of 9.29 etc makes the other verses complimentary, not contradictory.

But this is your thread about 'contradictions'. Do you still maintain your interpretation of 9.29 is contradicted by other verses or not? (try and make up your mind)

Cheers,
Shafique

I agree, it is your YOUR interpretation that the New Testament contains contradictory passages.

You, therefore, are correct to believe that your reading of the New Testament contains contradictions.

However, the truth is that these verses are complimentary, not contradictory.

If you need further help interpreting the New Testament or the Koran (contradictory passages included), I do offer my services in helping you to correctly interpret these texts.

Again with the mixing up of threads!

This YOUR thread about contradictions in the Quran.

You have argued that the Quran contradicts your interpretation of 9.29 etc - I understand the desire to hide from this fact. It is amusing though to see you not acknowledge it - I call it the 'ostrich defence' - I'm sure you can work out why!

Cheers,
Shafique

Shafique, I am glad that you have acknowledged that there is no passage in the ninth surah which says that people of the book pose a military threat to the Muslims - despite your original assertion otherwise.

So, I thought I'd remind you that this thread is about the contradictions in the Koran and you still need to explain who are the Jews and Christians being referred in this verse - which you believe is not a contradiction (and mainstream Muslim scholars have shown is a contradiction)

9:29 Fight those from among the people of the Book, who believe not in ALLAH, nor in the Last Day, nor hold as unlawful what ALLAH and HIS Messenger have declared to be unlawful, nor follow the true religion, until they pay the tax considering it a favour and acknowledge their subjection.

Who are the unbelievers, specifically the people of the book, that Muslims must fight?

What confused you about the last few times I answered your question above? Was it the fact that the other verses of Ch 9 do indeed clarify 9.29 - or are you just still in denial about the logical conclusion of this thread you started, i.e. that the Quran contradicts your view of 9.29?

Anyway - I'm glad you don't disagree with my previous post, I agree that the Quran contradicts your interpretation of 9.29. If we agree the Quran contradicts your view of the verse, what else is there to discuss?

If you want to discuss the meaning of 9.29 - this seems strange, there are whole threads on what Islam teaches about warfare. Did those answers confuse you as well?


Cheers,
Shafique

Sorry, which passages relating to the pagan Meccans in the ninth chapter do you believe clarify a command to wage war against unbelievers, specifically Jews and Christians?

I guess your reading of the Koran must not be as convincing as you would like to believe if the majority of Muslim scholars throughout history have understood 9:29 as a passage that abrogates (contradicts) previous passages which relate to unbelievers.

I totally agree. You do not seem to understand what has been posted about 9.29 - but in the end - we agree that the Quran contradicts your interpretation of 9.29, which is the point you made in the first post here.

Have you now changed your mind?

Cheers,
Shafique

Cool

So, the majority of Muslim scholars and I are in agreement that the Koran does contain contradictions over the issue of waging war against unbelievers, and you disagree with us.

No probs, we'll gloss over the fact that you still refuse to answer who is being addressed in this verse (which Muslim scholars say is a contradiction and the previously revealed passages in the Koran should be ignored).

Do you want to address other contradictions in the Koran now?

Actually, I agree with you that your interpretation of 9.29 (which you are projecting on 'majority of scholars') is contradicted by other verses of the Quran.

I'd hate to think how much you'd post if I disagreed with you on this point!

Cheers,
Shafique

Sorry, you must confuse interpretation to plain reading.

In any event, who are/were the Jews and Christians the Koran says Muslims must fight?

I agree you think everyone but yourself is confused - but thanks for starting this thread to show that you agree the Quran contradicts your 'plain reading' of 9.29.

So - I agree with your initial post that the Quranic verses you quoted contradict your 'plain reading' of 9.29.

Is there anything else to discuss regarding this 'contradiction'? Or do you want me to help you understand why we agree there is a contradiction between your 'plain reading' and the other verses?

Cheers,
Shafique

Sorry, which verse in ch. 9 says who the unbelievers ('people of the book') are that Muslims must fight?

^ You say there is a contradiction to your interpretation of 9.29 in other verses of the Quran, I agree with you.

Do you always continue to ask questions when people agree with you??

(It is strange that you are asking a question that was answered in a long quote and even highlighted in bold - perhaps it is a short-term memory problem triggered by the shock that I agree with your premise that the Quran contradicts your view of 9.29)

Cheers,
Shafique

Cool - it shouldn't be difficult, then, for you to quote the passages in the ninth chapter of the Koran you believe clarify who the Jews and Christians Muslims must fight are.

This thread is about contradictions in the Quran right -or is my pc playing up?

It seems that eh is really taken aback by the fact I agree with him!


(To the extent he's asking for answers which have already been given - fun to watch!)

Cheers,
Shafique

As I said, I can play your game that 9:29 is not universal command.

So, who were/are the Christians and Jews that Muslims are told to wage war against?

Curiouser and curiouser.

event horizon wrote:As I said, I can play your game that 9:29 is not universal command.

So you have changed your mind and agree that there isn't a contradiction in the Quran!!?

I thought you'd be pleased I agree that the Quran contradicts your interpretation of 9.29 - but you don't seem to be easily pleased. Why is that ikka/eh?

Cheers,
Shafique

Ok, I can understand that eh is a bit confused and is asking the same question again - it was a week ago that I answered it (on the second page of this thread) at Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:30 am

Cheers,
Shafique