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event horizon · Sep 11, 2009

Shafique claimed the Koran is internally consistent and contains no contradictions.

Although shafique has not presented his argument, instead saying that one must look at the contradictory passages (apparently to highlight the contradictions), he remains persistent in his belief that there are no contradictions in the Koran.

I'll go ahead and use the Koranic verses which most obviously contradict each other - should Muslims fight against unbelievers or only fight unbelievers after they are first attacked?

Koran 9:29:
Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Koran 9:123:
O believers, fight the unbelievers who are near to you; and let them find in you a harshness; and know that God is with the godfearing.

Koran 3:151:
Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!

Koran 8:39:
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.

Koran 9:111:
God has bought from the believers their selves and their possessions against the gift of Paradise; they fight in the way of God; they kill, and are killed; that is a promise binding upon God in the Torah, and the Gospel, and the Koran; and who fulfils his covenant truer than God? So rejoice in the bargain you have made with Him; that is the mighty triumph.

Koran 48:29
Muhammad is the Messenger of God, and those who are with him are hard against the unbelievers, merciful one to another. Thou seest them bowing, prostrating, seeking bounty from God and good pleasure. Their mark is on their faces, the trace of prostration. That is their likeness in the Torah, and their likeness in the Gospel: as a seed that puts forth its shoot, and strengthens it, and it grows stout and rises straight upon its stalk, pleasing the sowers, that through them He may enrage the unbelievers. God has promised those of them who believe and do deeds of righteousness forgiveness and a mighty wage.

vs.

Koran 2:193:

Fight them, till there is no persecution and the religion is God's; then if they give over, there shall be no enmity save for evildoers.

I expect either a copy-paste that does not address the contradictions or another analogy to the elephant. : )

shafique · Sep 11, 2009

Cool - just because you don't have any answers for the contradictions in the Bible does not mean the same applies to Muslims.

I know it must have stung when I quoted Kung condracting your view of the Bible's historiographic pedigree:

For today we know that the history of theology and the church, too, was predominantly written by the victors at the expense of the losers - along dogmatic or church-political lines. The losers in this kind of traditional church history are not just individual 'heretics' who have been rehabilitated by more recent histiography.

Whole areas of Christianity were losers, like the Jewish Christians who, as we saw, for the most part were already being regarded as heretical in the second and third centuries.

But never mind - you want me to show you that the Quran is internally consistent, in contrast to the Bible which contains fabricated verses added over the centuries.

If you are interested, there is a long thread that addresses a list of alleged contradictions in the Quran (Flying Dutchman posed the question and listed the contradictions -I addressed each in turn).

As for the above - let's see what is confusing you...

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Sep 11, 2009

event horizon wrote:Shafique claimed the Koran is internally consistent and contains no contradictions.

Yep.

event horizon wrote:Although shafique has not presented his argument, instead saying that one must look at the contradictory passages (apparently to highlight the contradictions), he remains persistent in his belief that there are no contradictions in the Koran.

Yep - and unlike 'eh' I will not use the argument - 'there are no contradictions because Muslim believe there are no contradictions'

event horizon wrote:I'll go ahead and use the Koranic verses which most obviously contradict each other - should Muslims fight against unbelievers or only fight unbelievers after they are first attacked?

10/10 for persistency - but let's see what is confusing you:

event horizon wrote:Koran 9:29:
Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Koran 9:123:
O believers, fight the unbelievers who are near to you; and let them find in you a harshness; and know that God is with the godfearing.

Yep - pretty clear verses. Doesn't say anything about fighting all unbelievers all the time - perhaps the Quran clarifies this elsewhere perchance?

event horizon wrote:Koran 3:151:
Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!

So, God says he will cast terror into the hearts of unbelievers - pretty tame stuff compared to some Biblical passages - but hardly a contradiction... unless God says somewhere else that He will never cast terror into the hearts of some people.

event horizon wrote:Koran 8:39:
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.

Ok - still waiting for the contradiction -can't see where God says fight 'all non-believers'.

event horizon wrote:
Koran 9:111:
God has bought from the believers their selves and their possessions against the gift of Paradise; they fight in the way of God; they kill, and are killed; that is a promise binding upon God in the Torah, and the Gospel, and the Koran; and who fulfils his covenant truer than God? So rejoice in the bargain you have made with Him; that is the mighty triumph.

God promising the beleivers who have to engage in Holy Wars His support - again, can't see a contradictory verse so far. (Is there another verse that says God will punish those who fight just wars?)

event horizon wrote:
Koran 48:29
Muhammad is the Messenger of God, and those who are with him are hard against the unbelievers, merciful one to another. Thou seest them bowing, prostrating, seeking bounty from God and good pleasure. Their mark is on their faces, the trace of prostration. That is their likeness in the Torah, and their likeness in the Gospel: as a seed that puts forth its shoot, and strengthens it, and it grows stout and rises straight upon its stalk, pleasing the sowers, that through them He may enrage the unbelievers. God has promised those of them who believe and do deeds of righteousness forgiveness and a mighty wage.

Ok - God is harsh against enemies of the believers. Perhaps ikka/eh is seeing an 'all' in the verse that I can't see?

event horizon wrote:
vs.

Ok - so now we come to the contradictory part - I see...

event horizon wrote:
Koran 2:193:

Fight them, till there is no persecution and the religion is God's; then if they give over, there shall be no enmity save for evildoers.

So here God says when fighting needs to stop. No contradiction here with any of the previous verses...

Where's the beef, eh?

I can't see how 2.193 contradicts any of the previous verses - where do any of the verses say fighting needs to continue after persecution stops and religion is God's??

(I'm assuming you do know what a contradiction is - look it up if you are unsure)

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 11, 2009

I'll love to take more time to respond to shafique's quick 'work' to the violent passages in the Koran. To be honest, I thought it was pretty funny that verses which say unbelievers, i.e., everyone who isn't a Muslim does not mean all unbelievers. Perhaps shafique can clarify why Muslim scholars who have understood 9:29 as a perpetual command for the past 14 centuries are wrong and he is right.

:lol:

event horizon · Sep 11, 2009

Looks like I have more time.

Doesn't say anything about fighting all unbelievers all the time - perhaps the Quran clarifies this elsewhere perchance?

What don't you understand about two passages that say to fight against unbelievers because they are unbelievers?

Your argument is pretty perplexing. The simple fact that most Muslims have interpreted the passages as the straight forward commands that they are tells me you're now performing some pretty impressive mental gymnastics.

So, God says he will cast terror into the hearts of unbelievers

The passages says 'We' will cast terror into the hearts of unbelievers (because they are unbelievers). I assume this to mean God and Muhammad and co. Do you have any reason to believe that this passage does not say for Muslims to cast terror into the hearts of unbelievers?

Ok - still waiting for the contradiction -can't see where God says fight 'all non-believers'.

Already explained. It seems that you're the one to decide that a verse must contain 'all' for it to be a general command. I hope you have found 'all' in the verse from the New Testament, otherwise I'll play the same game.

Ok - God is harsh against enemies of the believers. Perhaps ikka/eh is seeing an 'all' in the verse that I can't see?

Yes, I agree with you. Non-Muslims (unbelievers) are the enemies of Islam. If there is a passage that says non-Muslims are not the enemies of Islam, then that would be a clear contradiction.

So here God says when fighting needs to stop.

Yup, God says to stop fighting after Muslims have established Islam:

Fight them, till there is no persecution and the religion is God's; then if they give over, there shall be no enmity save for evildoers.

Of course, the context of this passage is referring to Muslims fighting against the Pagans of Mecca, therefore, this makes the passage a specific coommand to the Muslims at the time and not a general instruction for all times.

I'm sure you must have forgotten about this and the fact that the passage does not contain the word 'all' in it.

shafique · Sep 12, 2009

You really must look up the difference between 'complimentary' and 'contradictory' verses.

God is pretty clear about the ethics of war - and just as you seem to be denial about contradictions in the NT, you are similarly seeing things in a 'special' way about the Quran too.

If you have other supposed contradictions you'd like me to address, let me know.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 12, 2009

God in the Koran is clear indeed. God clearly says that war is to be waged against unbelievers until they are defeated by Muslim military forces, live under an Islamic state and feel themselves subdued.

It should speak volumes that you have not addressed the clear contradictions in the Koran, instead choosing to dismiss them because they do not contain the word 'all', etc.

But since you insist that 9:29 is not a general command, for which groups of Christians and Jews was the passage revealed for? Were the Jews and Christians who were not Muslims in the Arabian peninsula any different from Jews and Christians in other areas of the world, including today?

I think this boils down to denial - and the fact that this hurts dawa efforts. One must choose who to believe, Muslim theologians and jurists for 14 centuries or you. I know whose interpretation of the Koran I side with.

God is pretty clear about the ethics of war - and just as you seem to be denial about contradictions in the NT, you are similarly seeing things in a 'special' way about the Quran too.

Yes, these are the contradictory passages in the Koran which say for Muslims to attack unbelievers because they are unbelievers vs. a passage which says to attack unbelievers after Muslims have been attacked and to stop after Islamic law has been established - please try and keep up.

Your winky-dink school of arguments are truly breathtaking. Interestingly enough, I used the same arguments (that the New Testament should be interpreted wholly) yet you did not find that to be a very convincing apologetic. Please come back with some better explanations because the majority of people who read the Koran, Muslims included, do not find them to be very logical.

shafique · Sep 13, 2009

event horizon wrote:God in the Koran is clear indeed.

Glad we agree.

event horizon wrote:It should speak volumes that you have not addressed the clear contradictions in the Koran

Remember I asked you to look at the definition of 'contradictory' vs 'complimentary'.

I'm really sorry I can't help you with your imagined presence of words that aren't actually there.

event horizon wrote:But since you insist that 9:29 is not a general command, for which groups of Christians and Jews was the passage revealed for?

The meaning of 9.29 and it's application have been discussed many times before - I refer you to all those posts on the subject.

event horizon wrote:I think this boils down to denial

Totally agree.

event horizon wrote:- and the fact that this hurts dawa efforts.

The mind boggles what the success of Islam would be if 'dawa' wasn't 'hurt' as you say!

I actually disagree - the Orientalist view of Islam actually helps dawa - the inteligentsia who convert (eg. see your own post about the 14000 converts in the UK highlighted those high up in society who converted despite the Orientalist, outdated propaganda - precisely because it spurs those who are genuinely interested in the truth to examine both sides of the argument and choose.)

event horizon wrote: One must choose who to believe, Muslim theologians and jurists for 14 centuries or you.

Exactly. One must choose whether your selective quotes represent Islam or whether God's words in the Quran on the subject as we've explained is what we choose to believe.

event horizon wrote:I know whose interpretation of the Koran I side with.

Yes, and you don't see any contradictions in the Bible - but insist there are contradictions in the Quran - even when you post extracts from scholars like Kung who disagree with you.

Perhaps you don't see the problem here?

event horizon wrote:
God is pretty clear about the ethics of war - and just as you seem to be denial about contradictions in the NT, you are similarly seeing things in a 'special' way about the Quran too.

Yes, these are the contradictory passages in the Koran which say for Muslims to attack unbelievers because they are unbelievers vs. a passage which says to attack unbelievers after Muslims have been attacked and to stop after Islamic law has been established - please try and keep up.

previous comments apply.

event horizon wrote:Your winky-dink school of arguments are truly breathtaking.

Hardly a feat of erudition to point out that you haven't actualy shown any contradictions! But perhaps next time I'll break it down even more for you if you are having trouble with the line of argument!

event horizon wrote: Interestingly enough, I used the same arguments (that the New Testament should be interpreted wholly) yet you did not find that to be a very convincing apologetic.

Actually, you will find that I used that argument first - that Christians choose to not follow the verses which your experts say are forgeries. I didn't say there weren't contradictions - but that the contradictory verses are ignored.

You simply haven't provided any contradictory verse - only one contradictory interpretation of one verse, implying the presence of a word that isn't there. By contrast, Paul clearly says women should not speak in Church and Kung et al say this is a contradiction (contradicts an earlier verse) and is a forged verse.

event horizon wrote: Please come back with some better explanations because the majority of people who read the Koran, Muslims included, do not find them to be very logical.

Interesting ego-complex one seems to have - projecting your view of the Quran onto others!

As I asked before, are you an only child perchance?

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 13, 2009

Scanned your post but didn't see an answer, maybe I'll look again. But, in the meantime, perhaps you can answer my last question?

But since you insist that 9:29 is not a general command, for which groups of Christians and Jews was the passage revealed for? Were the Jews and Christians who were not Muslims in the Arabian peninsula any different from Jews and Christians in other areas of the world, including today?

So, in your estimation, which unbelievers were Muslims told to fight against because they were unbelievers (as 9:29 says for Muslims to do)? Please give us references for your views (I've heard Muslims claim that Muhammad was engaged in Jihad against the Romans at the of the of this verse). Perhaps you could also explain why the passage says to wage war against Jews as well as against Christians (Romans) if the passage was sent down to rally Muslim jihadists against some Arab buffer states and a non-existent Roman contingent?

shafique · Sep 14, 2009

My post asked you to refer to what was written before - sorry for being unclear.

I presume you understand that we can't use Winston Churchill's speeches about defeating the Germans, or Nelson's (or even Henry V's) pep talks about the French enemies - to conclude that the Brits are instructed to fight German and French troops today?

If you are struggling with the analogy - shout and I'll explain further. Context dear boy, context.

The other Quranic verses that talk about what conditions war can start and need to stop are very clear and again have been pointed out to you ad nauseum, and the military opponents of the early Muslims are also known to you (we've discussed many a time these clashes/wars).

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 14, 2009

I presume you understand that we can't use Winston Churchill's speeches about defeating the Germans, or Nelson's (or even Henry V's) pep talks about the French enemies - to conclude that the Brits are instructed to fight German and French troops today?

Sure, if you believe these speeches (hadith) to be on par with the eternal word of God.

Just curious, but do Winston Churchill's speeches about fighting the Germans say to fight the Germans *because* they are unbelievers?

The other Quranic verses that talk about what conditions war can start and need to stop are very clear and again have been pointed out to you ad nauseum,

Yes, and there are contradictory passages in the Koran which say to fight against unbelievers/unbelief *because* they are unbelievers. Please try and keep up.

shafique · Sep 14, 2009

event horizon wrote:
I presume you understand that we can't use Winston Churchill's speeches about defeating the Germans, or Nelson's (or even Henry V's) pep talks about the French enemies - to conclude that the Brits are instructed to fight German and French troops today?

Sure, if you believe these speeches (hadith) to be on par with the eternal word of God.

You really must progress from your I-spy books on Islam written by Orientalists.

The clue in my post was 'context dear boy, context'.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 14, 2009

Yes, I agree. One must go outside of the Koran for this 'context' on the Koran's passages, as shafique has shown by his inability to tell me just who the 'unbelievers' (general term) were and why fighting them because they are unbelievers should not be interpreted as a perpetual command.

But unfortunately, we are arguing if the Koran contains contradictory passages. You seem to be arguing that the Koran does and that one must go outside the Koran to consult scholars/commentaries on how to properly understand (interpret) the passages in the Koran.

I agree with you on this and I am glad that some Muslims do not read the Koran by itself to understand its clear passages.

shafique · Sep 15, 2009

You keep saying the Quran contains contradictory passages - just because you believe this to be the case does not make it so.

The complimentary passages you posted here about war do not contradict each other.

You are confusing the fact that the full context of 9.29 is to be found in historical accounts - but these historical accounts are only needed for more background information, not because the verses are contradictory.

You imagine there is a contradiction because you want to make a generalisation where there isn't one in the text. You see a 'perpetual command' where there isn't actually one there.

That said - the fact that you agree that there are clear Quranic verses that contradict YOUR interpretation of 9.29 makes my case for me regarding what Islam teaches about war. Think about it.

By contrast, you have the ability to ignore a general verse in the Bible saying women should not speak in Church (because they should ask their husbands for explanations) - but that is another thread.

As I said, I await any more instances you have of alleged contradictions. Thus far you have produced none.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 15, 2009

The complimentary passages you posted here about war do not contradict each other.

Woah. Are you saying that passages in the Koran which say to attack unbelievers because they are unbelievers are complimentary to passages which say to fight after being attacked?

but these historical accounts are only needed for more background information, not because the verses are contradictory.

Still haven't seen any evidence that 9:29 and other violent passages in the Koran don't contradict less violent passages in the Koran.

the fact that you agree that there are clear Quranic verses that contradict YOUR interpretation of 9.29

My interpretation is shared by mainstream Muslim scholars who correctly point out that 9:29 contradicts and, therefore, abrogates previous passages relating to unbelievers. I agree with their interpretation although I see you have not provided any convincing explanation as to why their interpretation is wrong and yours is correct.

By contrast, you have the ability to ignore a general verse

Yes, I agree someone has an amazing ability to ignore general verses.

As I said, I await any more instances you have of alleged contradictions. Thus far you have produced none.

Correction, in your opinion there have been no verses produced. For everyone else who can read, the verses posted clearly contradict each other.

I see that I have come to the end of your post and you still have not explained why verses such as 2:193, which talk about fighting specific enemies in specific conflicts should be interpreted as general instructions whereas verses in the Koran which say to fight against unbelievers (all non-Muslims) because they are unbelievers should not be interpreted as a perpetual command.

I sure hope you're not one of those types who are all talk and no trousers.

shafique · Sep 15, 2009

^I searched in vain for a new question/point that has not already been addressed.

I couldn't find one that hasn't been addressed a few times already.

You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink!

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 16, 2009

Just to make it clear for shafique:

Let me ask again - who were the unbelievers that the Koran says to fight against because they are non-Muslims?

shafique · Sep 16, 2009

event horizon wrote:Just to make it clear for shafique:

Let me ask again - who were the unbelievers that the Koran says to fight against because they are non-Muslims?

Let see if you read what people post - what explanations did rudeboy et al give you for this verse - what was confusing about their explanations? Do you think they didn't address who these people were?

Context, dear boy, context.

You agree with us that God is clear in the Quran about the conditions to start wars, end wars and how to conduct wars.

If you have other questions, let me know.

Now let me go and see whether you have answered the question about who the women Paul refers to are.... perhaps you will surprise me and give me an answer.
[Edit - I find that you haven't answered the question. Disapointed, but not surprised... so to avoid the same accusation of not answering your question, I'll answer it below]

.
.
.
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Those addressed in 9.29 are the unbelievers who posed a military threat to the Muslims - but you knew this, and who these people are in all the history books.

Context, dear boy, context. Substitute 'unbelievers' with 'Germans' and you could have a war-time speech from an Allied supporter.

Taken in context of all the other verses of the Quran on warfare, there is no contradiction to any impartial reader - only those who think otherwise are those who think they know what Islam is about because their I-spy book on Islam tells them so.

Edit 2 - I'm in a particularly charitable mood today - so to expand on the above, here is an explanation from someone who spells the Quran in the way you do - and he explains, step by step, the context and exposes the selectiveness of your argument. (Note he also points out that the context of 9.29 is given in the verses of the rest of the verse - notably the earlier verses talking about the unbelievers/pagans that were fighting the Muslims..)

War and fighting in the Quran

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After 9-11 there has been various debates about Islam. Some have said that the terrorist are Islam's true spoken. The so called moderates practice taqiya. Taqiya is the deliberate lying for the faith. They say Islam is a violent religion that commands Muslims to kill non Muslim. Non Muslims have 3 choices, either they convert, pay the jizya(tax) or die. They say Muhammad was peaceful for PR reasons and once strong showed his true colors and preached violent jihad. They say all the peaceful verses were abrogated after his final victory with this verse:

9.5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

And also this verse:

9.29. Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

This verses are chosen for a reason. When read alone it implies a command to attack until they convert. Of course there are other verses in the Koran that talks about fighting. But why do they tend to focus on this one? Its simple, the other verses tend to show the defensive nature of the jihad and also the malicious intent and behavior of the pagans. Thus never cited. Lets look at some of them:

2.190. Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors

2.191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith

2.193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God, but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression
Also:

2.217. They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access to the path of God, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.

All these verses talks about fighting, however within these verses the defensive nature of the verses and the malicious behavior of the pagans is cited. Thus those who wish to attack Islam never cite those verses. Its a deliberate attempt to hide what the Koran as saying and using selective verses to imply what they know the verses does not mean.

Lets however look at the verse that is often cited. This time we will take the verses before and after it to see what is the context this verse is talking.

9.4. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for God loveth the righteous.

9.5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
6. If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge. 7. How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous.

However in the same chapter in explains the intention behind this verse:

9.13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is God Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!

Its important for us to understand what the Koran is saying. When the koran says if they repent and establish regular prayers and so on, its not a command to attack them till they do that. Its a command to say if they choose to one day becoming Muslims, do not despise them because of past blood. Let bygones be bygones because now there are your brethren. If he chooses to remain pagan then let him be and do not fight him unless he chooses to fight you. The verse are read wrong, since many pagans converted to Islam and some of the earlier believers had problems with individuals who they fought before or were persecuted and oppressed by them before.

The verses clearly indicate that no forced conversion was there.There are standards that the Koran established for fighting.

As for such who do not fight you on account of faith, or drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to deal with them with equity, for God loves those who act equitably. God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of faith and drive you forth from your homelands or aid in driving you forth As for those from among you who turn towards them for alliance, it is they who are wrongdoers. 60:8-9

Permission (to fight) is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged, and verily, God has indeed the power to aid them. Those who have been driven from their homelands in defiance of right for no other reason than their saying, ‘Our Lord is God.’ 22:39-40

The Koran makes clear the job of the prophet:

16:82 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message .

6:107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.

4:79-80 Say:'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."

11:28 He (Noah) said "O my people! think over it! If I act upon a clear direction from my Lord who has bestowed on me from Himself the Merciful talent of seeing the right way, a way which you cannot see for yourself, does it follow that we can force you to take the right path when you definitely decline to take it?°

17:53-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you with power to determine their Faith.

88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

But most of all the Koran asks the prophet himself this question:

10.99-100. If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand

The prophet's answer must have been no!

109.1-6 Say : O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine

There is nothing even called conquest in the Koran and there is nothing called paying taxes and offensive war and spreading faith by the sword are not Koranic whatsoever and is a direct disobedience to the orders of the Koran.

You asked, QED.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 16, 2009

The copy/paste provided deserves its own thread. In short, the author unremarkably quotes passages from the first 28 passages of the ninth surah dealing with the pagans of Mekka which are not related to the command in verse 29 to wage war against unbelievers - i.e., all non-Muslims including 'People of the book'.

It also bears repeating that this strawman of taking 9:29 and other violent passages that have been quoted in this thread out of context has been dealt with elsewhere on another thread. I politely refer shafique to the other thread so he can read the passages and then read the surrounding passages in the Koran to find out that none of the violent passages I have posted have been taken out of context.

If shafique is still confused, I am more than happy to explain the violent passages in the Koran to him (and the context) if he asks.

The Koran says to wage war against unbelievers - all non Muslims, because they are non Muslims. The Koran repeats this command several times, including a passage which explicitly says for Muslims to strike terror into the hearts of unbelievers because they are nonbelievers.

Shafique has so far only managed to cite contradictory passages in the Koran which say to fight if attacked, etc. Perhaps shafique is not aware that this was the entire point of this thread?

I already know that the Koran contains contradictions. This thread already posted one verse that says not to attack until Muslims are attacked by the Pagans and this contradicts passages in the Koran which command Muslims to wage jihad warfare against unbelievers because they are unbelievers.

Shafique is free to believe these are not contradictions. Perhaps he'll manage to convince someone.

shafique · Sep 16, 2009

'eh' asks for the context, and then complains the answer is too long.

Did you forget the succinct answer I gave at the beginning:
'the ones who were a military threat to the Muslims' (and are referenced in the rest of Chp 9).

Do you imagine other words in verses, or is just the one word 'all'?

As for the attempt at sophistry in the rest of your post - just because you +believe+ 9.29 is unrelated to the other verses in Ch 9, does not make it is so. You similarly +believe+ that there are no contradictions in the Bible - despite what Kung and others have shown..

Let me know if you are still confused.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Sep 16, 2009

double post

event horizon · Sep 19, 2009

and then complains the answer is too long.

Where did I say the answer was too long?

'the ones who were a military threat to the Muslims' (and are referenced in the rest of Chp 9).

Who are the Jews and Christians who were a military threat to the Muslims? Where does the ninth surah say Jews and Christians are to be fought because they are attacking Muslims?

Do you imagine other words in verses, or is just the one word 'all'?

No, not at all. The Koran clearly says Muslims will conquer all other religions:

Koran 61:009:

He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may make it conqueror of all religion however much idolaters may be averse.

Verse 9:29 says to wage war against anyone who is not a Muslim. In other words, all unbelievers are to be fought as the Koran clearly says. Verse 9:123 compliments 9:29 and adds that Muslims are to wage war against unbelievers if the unbelievers live near an Islamic state.

Koran 9:123:

O believers, fight the unbelievers who are near to you; and let them find in you a harshness; and know that God is with the godfearing.

The Koran says two things in this verse:

1) Unbelievers (all non Muslims) are to be fought
2) Living near unbelievers is enough of a provocation for Muslims to launch wars of aggression against unbelievers.

Verse 9:29 adds to this command by repeating the instruction that Muslims are to fight unbelievers because they are unbelievers but also says to only end hostilities when unbelievers (Jews and Christians) are defeated and live under an Islamic state.

Koran 9:29:

Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

I am more than happy to address whatever passages you *believe* relate to 9:29 in the ninth chapter of the Koran, but I can not do so until you provide any of your (imaginary) verses.

shafique · Sep 20, 2009

It appears you did not read the long message which answered your question.

What particularly confused you? Was it the absence of the word 'all' from the verses in question, or the fact that all the verses compliment each other and there isn't a contradiction?

Only your interpretation of verses as being universal is contradicted by the other verses of the Quran on warfare. On that, I agree with you.

Your interpretation is definitely contradicted by the teachings of Islam - but this has been pointed out ad nauseum - so, as I advised in the other thread, unless you have a new argument, change the record and enjoy Eid.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 20, 2009

Are you having trouble with the question, shafique?

Which verse in the ninth surah does it say that Jews and Christians, those singled out for violence in verse 29, are a "military threat to the Muslims" (your words)?

Did you forget the succinct answer I gave at the beginning:
'the ones who were a military threat to the Muslims' (and are referenced in the rest of Chp 9).

Still (patiently) waiting. Could you please post the imaginary verses which say Jews and Christians, 'people of the book', are a military threat to the Muslims?

shafique · Sep 20, 2009

As I said, if you have a new question that hasn't already been answered, I'll happily answer it. (And if you missed it - the answer is in the long post, highlighted in red and bold.)

But for now (and whilst I wait for X Factor to be uploaded), let me wish you a happy Eid - even though it's Eid tomorrow here in Mauritius.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 20, 2009

Are you saying that verse 9:13 refers to the Jews and Christians?

Or are they verses 9:5 and 9:6 which you have also highlighted in red?

A simple reading of all three verses reveals that the people in question are the Pagans of Mecca. Surely you know this?

shafique · Sep 20, 2009

I've pointed out that your interpretation of the universality of these verses is what is faulty - 9.29 is pretty clear when read in context of all the other verses talking about war.

There is a verse which says 'do not pray' in the Quran. Would you argue Islam is unclear about whether to pray or not?

Similarly, there are verses in the NT which say 'Women should not speak in church'. (Which you still need to explain which men Paul was addressing when he said this - even though Kung et al say these are fabricated verses) - would you argue that the NT is contradictory on this point?

What chapter 9 says about warfare is pretty clear - read all the verses together.

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 20, 2009

Cool. So we agree that there is no verse in the ninth surah which says the Jews and Christians posed a military threat to the Muslims.

Now, the issue is why does the Koran say to wage war against 'people of the book' because they are unbelievers and whether this clear command contradicts the other, less violent commands in the Koran.

shafique · Sep 20, 2009

I've said it before, I'll say it again - You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink!

Anyway, if you think you have other verses of the Quran which you think are contradictory, I'll be happy to put you straight. As for the verses here - as shown above, they are not contradictory.

The only contradictions that exist are between your interpretation of clear verses (and imagining that a word 'all' is there) and the rest of the Quranic verses concerning war. But you knew that

Cheers,
Shafique

event horizon · Sep 20, 2009

Still waiting for those passages which say, your words, that 'the Jews and Christians were a military threat to the Muslims'.

Are these passages not there and you made the claim up?

Or are they there and you're taking your time getting around to quoting them?

It appears you want me to believe that verse 9:29 should not interpreted as a universal command because of the word 'all', despite what Muslim scholars have shown. Ok, let's turn this around.

Which of the 'peaceful' verses in the Koran which say to fight against unbelievers after Muslims have been attacked contain the word 'all' in them?

Curiouser and curiouser.

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