Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk

Buddhists are the new Jews of Europe.

The mosque frequented by key members of the airline plot terror cell has been a recruiting ground for Islamist extremists for more than 20 years, The Times can reveal.

The Queen’s Road mosque in Walthamstow, East London, was a regular place of worship and meeting place for central figures from the group.

Abdullah Ahmed Ali, the cell leader, prayed there and met with his associates including Waheed Zaman, who lived opposite.

The mosque is currently under the control of Tablighi Jamaat, an ultraorthodox Islamic sect which preaches that Muslims should replicate the life of Muhammad and tells them it is their duty to travel the world converting non-believers to the one true faith.

Intelligence services around the world believe Tablighi Jamaat’s fundamentalism makes some of its followers easy prey for terrorist recruiters. Mohammed Sidique Khan, the leader of the London 7/7 bombers, was an adherent.

Almost without exception, the Walthamstow bombers were Tablighi followers. They sometimes went to huge Friday night gatherings in West Ham on the site beside the 2012 Olympic Park where the sect wants to build Europe's biggest mosque with space for 12,000 people to pray.

In 1989, however, before it became a Tablighi mosque, followers of the extremist preacher Omar Bakri Mohammed frequently hosted study circles at Queen’s Road.

In August that year I attended such a gathering led by Bakri Mohammed’s lieutenants, then operating under the banner of Hizb-ut-Tahrir (Party of Liberation).

The young men present told me of the evils of drink and discos, decried "free intermingling of the sexes" and preached that "God knows best because he created us".

Kysar, then 19, proclaimed a message that has become familiar and been repeated since by hardliners the world over: "Islam isn't a religion where you can only adopt part of it and only talk about that. You have to adopt the whole Islamic viewpoint on society. There can be no compromise with the divine system which has been revealed to us."

The name of al-Qaeda was not known at the time, but the ideology now associated with it - the narrative of the supremacy of fundamentalist Islam - was clearly present.

At that time Bakri Mohammed, the Syrian cleric who was one of the first men to preach jihad to young British Muslims, was the leader of Hizb ut Tahrir in Britain.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 818794.ece

This is a very interesting case.

Firstly, the three convicted numpties should be in jail - that's where they belong.

On reading the news reports, I felt that at last we could feel pride in our intelligence services for foiling a major terrorist plot - and indeed in putting these numpties away, they have done society a service.

However, when one looks at the facts behind the headlines - one sees worrying signs that hype is obscuring the proven facts.

Double Jeopardy

Firstly, it now appears that the UK authorities will decide a person's guilt and will keep trying them until they get the verdict they want (ok, a slight exageration - but only slight).

The three main numpties were already convicted and sentenced for conspiracy to murder and aquitted for conspiracy to blow up planes. At great expense to the taxpayer (tens of millions of pounds) a retrial was undertaken to convict them of the latter - and this time only 1 juror was unconvinced.

The only discernible benefit from this retrial is that the headlines about 'airline bombplot' can now be written. The numpties are still in jail and still protesting their innocence (saying they were budding Tarantinos rather than Bin Ladens).

Characterisation of the numpties

The numpties are being presented as criminal masterminds - and yet, looking at the facts, they are numpties. The 'chemist' is an academic failure who could not hack university, and yet many are saying he 'attended university' as if to imply he's a graduate and educated. Read the detail and he is a misfit and full of insecurities.

Whilst Ali is a graduate, the numpties communicated with Pakistan using e-mails (unencrypted it seems) - which talked about a 'presentation' that they were working on. Either they were actually working on a presentation, or it is the weakest code in history- as I said, numpties either way.

Another numpty was approached by MI5 a few times and offered the opportunity of becoming a mole (an 'asset' in official terms) - and still the numpty goes on to discuss bomb making etc and other incendiary rhetorics. He deserves to be locked away for just plain stupidity.


At least the jury saw through the prosecution hype in the case of the one Muslim convert who was fully aquited. One must ask why he was rounded up and subjected to 3 years of angst based on the flimsly circumstantial evidence that was dismissed by juries twice.


That said, the whole episode makes great headlines and comes on the day that Israel announces it will expand its illegal colonies despite Obama saying they shouldn't - it is fortuitous for them that the news came out on a day that is 'good to bury bad news'!

Cheers,
Shafique

Kind of a strange response to a thread about a Mosque that is regarded by authorities as a recruiting center for Islamic extremists for over 20 years - perhaps you're referring to the conviction of several jihad terrorists who plotted to blow up several airplanes bound for North America, similar to the Bojinka jihad plot to blow up near a dozen commercial airliners over the Pacific ocean?

I'm just thankful that the authorities rounded these men up before these jihad terrorists were able to carry out their jihad attack. In the past, the British authorities were not so successful - with the 7/7 jihad terror bombings, 7/21 terror bombings, and the failed suicide bomber and Muslim convert who detonated a nail bomb inside a restaurant. Luckily, the last two jihad terror attacks were not successful.

I am sure that many Britons know that another jihad terror attack will eventually be carried out in Britain in the near future - a terror attack carried out either by converts to Islam or Muslims who have lived in Britain for most of their lives and/or benefited from Britain's generous welfare programs or both - as was the case of the 7/7 martyrdom bombers which included both a convert and an asylum seeker IIRC.

To be fair, many British citizens (51%) correctly view that Islam is partly to blame for terrorism against their country and the extremism shown by many Muslim living in Britain. I would encourage the other 49% of the British public to read the texts and teachings of Islam, read up on Jihad/Qital, read the Koran and hadiths, read biographies on Muhammad, Khalid ibn Waleed and the 'rightly' guided caliphs so they can learn the truth about Islam's teachings and the actions of the early Muslims.

The 51% of the British public who have studied Islam know that Islam has taught perpetual jihad warfare against unbelievers for 14 centuries of Muslim history - the early Muslims waged jihad warfare against unbelievers with the goal of striking 'terror in the hearts of unbelievers' and plundering the natives whose land the Muslims conquered and the cities the Muslims terrorist burnt (Alexandria, Caesarea, Istakhr, Bahnasa, Ctesiphon (which was thankfully spared a massacre and only plundered by the early Muslim terrorists), Dvin and many more cities that suffered the consequences of resisting Muslim aggression.

In the future, I can only hope that more non-Muslims read Islamic history and the violent Koran which teaches Muslims to wage jihad warfare (9:29, 9:123, 8:39 (- 'fitnah' means disbelief rather than persecution)) and to carry out jihad terror attacks (3:151) as contemporary Muslims are now following the latter rather than the former until a Caliphate is established so Muslims can launch offensive jihad against unbelievers.

I am thankful that the majority of the world's Muslims do not follow the militant teachings of Islam and as a way to combat extremism which is so rife among Muslims, I would suggest Muslims 'mark out' the violent and militant passages in the Koran with a black marker. To me, until Muslims reinterpret the texts and teachings of Islam, which will not happen until the gates of ijtihad reopen, will be the only way to counter and reverse Islamic militancy which is only spreading and becoming more radicalized.

eh? (I love your new name)

The article opens with the factoid that Muslims attend the mosque that one of the convicted numpties went to - and that 'authorities' 'believe' it to be a recruiting ground.

My post just made the point that when one looks beyond the headlines at the facts, interesting perspectives open up.

So, a mosque in East London is characterised as a recruiting ground - hardly surprising. Where would you expect young Muslim men to worship, if not their local mosque?

It's as insightful as pointing out that most of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi -and that Saudi is therefore the main recruiting ground for successful terrorists against the US.


eh - I don't expect you to look beyond the headlines and the questions I raised, but then you are not alone at not allowing facts get in the way of a good story!

Cheers,
Shafique

The article also mentions the factoid that there were some other famous (infamous?) Muslim worshipers at the Mosque, including one of Britain's home grown suicide bombers.

I can understand that you're not impressed that Mosques in the UK are used to recruit and radicalize Muslims.

After all, where else would someone be radicalized by Islamic extremist belief outside of their Mosque - prison?

You bring up a few good points in saying that Mosques/Masjids in the UK are a danger to the British public. I don't think I would have ever said that or even suggested that, by default, mosques pose significant risk to the lives and well being of the people of Britain.

I think what the article was saying, was that this mosque in particular (although there are others) is noted for its history of radicalizing Muslims, especially Muslim youths (or as Joe Pescie would say, Muslim yewts).

Perhaps in the future, the British government can take steps to prevent mosques from being used as recruitment centers for Islamic militancy? What do you think?

Your view is coloured by your mistaken concept of Islam - this is like having only one tool in your toolbox - a hammer. As a result, you tend to see all issues as nails.


The article is full of 'maybe's and inferences - and yes, the factoid is just that - factoid. You'll probably find that a majority of the numpties owned Playstations, or listened to gansta rap or shopped in Walthamstow market - etc. It's confusing simply confusing correlation with causality.

Get beyond the headlines to the hard facts and we see a pattern of the threats being hyped etc.

I note that you choose not to dispute/address any of the points I raised. Not surprising.

Cheers,
Shafique

You'll probably find that a majority of the numpties owned Playstations, or listened to gansta rap or shopped in Walthamstow market - etc. It's confusing simply confusing correlation with causality.

False analogies can be fun.

The Muslim terrorists were recruited at mosques, not music stores. The Muslim terrorists were driven by the texts and teachings of Islam, including martyrdom and jihad, not 50% off sales.

I can understand your insistence to bury your head in the sand and ignore these inconvenient factoids.

I agree the factoid is interesting. Perhaps you didn't understand me when I said 'confusing correlation with causality' - if so, just say so and I'll explain.

I also note that you don't dispute the other observations I made in my first post.

So perhaps, we agree here - which would make a change -eh?

Cheers,
Shafique

Perhaps you didn't understand me when I said 'confusing correlation with causality' - if so, just say so and I'll explain.

I have no problem asking questions when I am not sure of something.

For example, if I didn't know what 'interpolation' meant or 'contemporary sources', I would have no problem asking.

Perhaps you can explain why not only all of Britain's suicide bombers/would-be suicide bombers were Muslim, but also why these Muslim terrorists justified their actions from the texts and teachings of Islam?

You could argue away the first, I am sure (not convincingly), but the last part seems to be the clincher to me and separates a terrorist from a religious terrorist.

^ eh oh, you really shouldn't be embarrassed if you don't know what confusing correlation with causality means.

Cheers,
Shafique

UK airline bomb plotters jailed

Three men found guilty of planning to bring down transatlantic planes using liquid explosives have been sentenced in London to between 32 and 40 years in jail.

Abdulla Ahmed Ali, 28, the ringleader, was sentenced to a minimum of 40 years in jail, Assad Sarwar, 29, was jailed for at least 36 years and Tanvir Hussain, 28, will serve a minimum of 32 years in prison.

The three British Muslims planned to kill thousands of people by blowing up transatlantic passenger jets bound for North America using explosives smuggled aboard the aircraft disguised as soft drinks.

Richard Henriques, the judge at Woolwich Crown Court, said the men were guilty of a "grave and wicked conspiracy" and that, had the plot been successful, it would "stand alongside the events of September 11, 2001, in history".

The suspected al-Qaeda suicide plot, just days from being put into operation according to British detectives, had huge worldwide ramifications leading to restrictions on the amount of liquids passengers could take on board aircraft.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europ ... 93874.html