Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk Philosophy and Religion Forums

Hi everyone,

This is rongson from shanghai, china. First of all i want to note that what i'm saying here is just my puzzlings, it has nothing to do with malicious assault on Islamic practices. I totally respect Islam from my bottom of heart.

Once upon a time, i came across a man who is from a muslim country. and he told me that he fell in love with a girl who was from china, and he even wanted to marry that girl, but question is that girl is not a muslim. what do you guys think of marriage between non-muslims and muslims? Is it acceptable and possible for a muslim girl to marry a man who is not a muslim? If it is, what should the non-muslim man do? Does he have to become a muslim?

they should get married...

They can marry and will also be accepted by the society but for Buddhist, Hundus Jains, Sorastarian etc they should be converted to Muslims before marriage.

For Christians and Jews they can retain their faith and marry Here are few facts I googled.

MUSLIM WOMAN AND NON-MUSLIM MAN:

..... And give not (your daughters) in marriage to
Al-Mushrikun** till they
believe in Allah alone and verily a believing slave is better
than a (free) Mushrik, even though he pleases you....[2:221] **
Al-Mushrikun=>Pagans, idolators, polytheist and disbelievers in
the Oneness of Allah and in His messanger Prophet Muhammad SAW)
- [[6]]


MUSLIM MAN AND NON-MUSLIM WOMAN:

MARRIAGE WITH CHRISTIANS AND JEWS: The marriages between Muslim
men and CERTAIN non-Muslim women is allowed. However, certain
restricitions exist on such marriages, especially if they occur
in non-Muslim lands where Islamic law and religion is not
prevailing.

2- With Christian or Jewish women, who are resident of "dar
a-harb"****, the nikah (the marriage contract) will be valid,
but will be a "mukrooh Tahrimi" (worse than tanzihi) situation.
The act which is "mukrooh tarhimi" is so close to "haraam" (not
permissible at all) that it is ALMOST "haraam" and is "na'jaiz"
ie. not legal. The man involved will be responsible for
committing an act which is so close to a state of "sin".
**** Victor Danner describes "Dar al-Islam" as : the
House of Islam, or the Islamic world; the Islamic
community, where submission to the Divine Will reigns;
Opposed to dar- al-harb ( the non-Islamic community)

3- It is required that the women should be practising their
religion at the time of marriage and they are not practically
"Mulhid" (atheist). To any women, who doesn't believe in God,
religion, God's message and doesn't practise any religion at
all, the "nikaah" (marriage) will be INVALID and according to
"shari'ah" (Islamic Law), such a couple is involved in sin.

4- If any Muslim marries a woman from "People of the Books", the
children, by shar'iah (Islamic law) are considered to be Muslim.
For instance, often, in "dar al-harb," the kids adopt the
religion of their mother; and, sometimes, a marriage is arranged
upon agreements between the couples that half of kids will adopt
mother's and the other half will follow father's religion. If a
Muslim man agrees to ANY of such terms accepting the kids to be
raised non-Muslims, the person will be regarded as a "Murtid"
(the one who has denied Islam) because he has allowed his kids
to become "kaafir" who may have been brought up in Islamic
religion. Anyone who willingly and knowingly allows/agrees for
his kids to become "kaafir" is regarded as "kaafir." He is out
of the Islamic circle. If he had any Muslim woman in his
"nikaah" before this marriage, the Muslim woman is free from his
bond (because a Muslim woman can't remain married a
non-Muslim).

it is right that muslim men can marry non muslim women untill the girl believes in God. but for muslim women who are shi'a ( muslims are primarily two categories: shi'a and sonni) they can not marry non muslim men, unless the man converts to Islam.

first of all i would like to say hi for all, then i wanna inform u every budy that , Muslim Man allowed to marry un Muslim Woman , but the opposite its not right , i mean the Muslim woman not allowed to get married with a non Muslim Man, thats one of the reasons of why the Muslim man can Marry four women .
about u wrong son , if u wana marry Muslim woman u have to change to Muslim first , then u r allowed to have the Muslims Rights.

bdr wrote:first of all i would like to say hi for all, then i wanna inform u every budy that , Muslim Man allowed to marry un Muslim Woman , but the opposite its not right , i mean the Muslim woman not allowed to get married with a non Muslim Man, thats one of the reasons of why the Muslim man can Marry four women .
about u wrong son , if u wana marry Muslim woman u have to change to Muslim first , then u r allowed to have the Muslims Rights.

First of all, i think it would be better for me to state clearly before i write down anything. I have no other intention just curious.

Could i say based on what you have written here that it's kind of unfair for muslim woman? since you guys say that it does not matter if a muslim man is going to marry a non-muslim woman, but the reverse matters. so, do you guys have any prove from Quran by saying this?

rongson tnc123 was kind enough to post a translation of a section of the qur'an that addresses the issue, so there's ur proof.

as for fairness. children born take on the name and religion of the father. if a muslim woman marries a non muslim man, then the kids will become non-muslim themeselves. So its forbidden for the muslim woman to do so...since she will be willingly allowing her own children to become non-muslims.

regarding muslim men and that it "doesnt matter" if he marries a non muslim, you seem to have misunderstood the previous clarifications.

a muslim man is allowed to marry a woman who is ONLY from "ahlil kitab" which means "people of the book" and those are the christians and jews. The prophet married a christian lady and a jewish one too. other than those religions, a muslim man is forbidden from marrying into. so if the woman was buhdist, then he cannot marry her.

for a muslim woman, she can marry a man as long as he is muslim. if he was not at the time when she knew him, he must willingly revert to islam, and then only will she be able to marry him.

in short, this is about faith and will. no one can trick God as he is all knowing. if a man fakes becoming a muslim just to marry the muslim woman and the woman knows that, then they are living a lie since the man's true will to become muslim was missing in the first place.

love of God is always higher in islam over love of men, women, life, money...etc. so the first prerequisite to marriage, is being true to ur own self. becoming a muslim should be for one reason only...believing in God and accepting the shahada and nothing else. ps: the shahada is agreeing that: there is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet.

hope that clears things up

VRV wrote:rongson tnc123 was kind enough to post a translation of a section of the qur'an that addresses the issue, so there's ur proof.

as for fairness. children born take on the name and religion of the father. if a muslim woman marries a non muslim man, then the kids will become non-muslim themeselves. So its forbidden for the muslim woman to do so...since she will be willingly allowing her own children to become non-muslims.

regarding muslim men and that it "doesnt matter" if he marries a non muslim, you seem to have misunderstood the previous clarifications.

a muslim man is allowed to marry a woman who is ONLY from "ahlil kitab" which means "people of the book" and those are the christians and jews. The prophet married a christian lady and a jewish one too. other than those religions, a muslim man is forbidden from marrying into. so if the woman was buhdist, then he cannot marry her.

for a muslim woman, she can marry a man as long as he is muslim. if he was not at the time when she knew him, he must willingly revert to islam, and then only will she be able to marry him.

in short, this is about faith and will. no one can trick God as he is all knowing. if a man fakes becoming a muslim just to marry the muslim woman and the woman knows that, then they are living a lie since the man's true will to become muslim was missing in the first place.

love of God is always higher in islam over love of men, women, life, money...etc. so the first prerequisite to marriage, is being true to ur own self. becoming a muslim should be for one reason only...believing in God and accepting the shahada and nothing else. ps: the shahada is agreeing that: there is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet.

hope that clears things up

Thank you for your explaination. Logically, what you have presented here makes sense. Thank you.

As a muslim woman I should say It is all correct! Islam is not fair to women, it is not just marriage, in Islam there is a rule that if father in a family passed a way the amount of heritage is twice for his sons rather than his girls.
The other unfair issue is hijab! how should women protect themselves with hijab and funny clothes for protection and there is no such rules for guys?!
In Iran a married woman can not take a trip, or go to work without her husband's legal permission!
Yeeesss It is a religion of justice!!! and funniest thing is, There is a rule that implies if you are a muslim ( because of your parents) then you realised you dont wanna be muslim anymore because of this stupid rules, they can kill you! cause you are "mortad" (out of religion)

melika969 wrote:As a muslim woman I should say It is all correct! Islam is not fair to women, it is not just marriage, in Islam there is a rule that if father in a family passed a way the amount of heritage is twice for his sons rather than his girls.
The other unfair issue is hijab! how should women protect themselves with hijab and funny clothes for protection and there is no such rules for guys?!
In Iran a married woman can not take a trip, or go to work without her husband's legal permission!
Yeeesss It is a religion of justice!!! and funniest thing is, There is a rule that implies if you are a muslim ( because of your parents) then you realised you dont wanna be muslim anymore because of this stupid rules, they can kill you! cause you are "mortad" (out of religion)

@melika: islam's sharia states that a male would inherit twice as much as his sister if a parent passes away. But islam also states that the male is responsible to provide and support his widowed mother, his unmarried sister and of course his wife and children. as for the female, she is not required to spend anything on anyone but herself.

so when the sharia gives twice to the male, its taking into account the amount of responsibility that comes with it. dont forget that when ur husband gets his "twice" the amount too, he will need it to support u and all the women in his life like his mother and sisters.

we really need to start analyzing what's being fed to us from ignorant people about religions and start for once trusting the motives of religious sharia.

remember, not everything that seems unfair to "you" is necessarly so. It is always wiser to research and ask before throwing awfully stupid verdicts on God, religion and its followers.

the ignorance of your comments spreads to the hijab too, but thats another story. I suggest you read what a hijab means first as an arabic word from a proper source, and find wear it says that a hijab is for both men and women.

if u have something constructive to say, then say it...otherwise, u know what to do.

Just curious, are you from Iran melika ? Because I had a very intresting conversation with a wealthy elderly gentleman from Iran who decided to close up all his factories and bussinesses in Iran and live in somewhat of a self imposed exile here in Dubai recently, and somewhat now I really understand what he was saying.

VRV wrote:

melika969 wrote:As a muslim woman I should say It is all correct! Islam is not fair to women, it is not just marriage, in Islam there is a rule that if father in a family passed a way the amount of heritage is twice for his sons rather than his girls.
The other unfair issue is hijab! how should women protect themselves with hijab and funny clothes for protection and there is no such rules for guys?!
In Iran a married woman can not take a trip, or go to work without her husband's legal permission!
Yeeesss It is a religion of justice!!! and funniest thing is, There is a rule that implies if you are a muslim ( because of your parents) then you realised you dont wanna be muslim anymore because of this stupid rules, they can kill you! cause you are "mortad" (out of religion)

@melika: islam's sharia states that a male would inherit twice as much as his sister if a parent passes away. But islam also states that the male is responsible to provide and support his widowed mother, his unmarried sister and of course his wife and children. as for the female, she is not required to spend anything on anyone but herself.

so when the sharia gives twice to the male, its taking into account the amount of responsibility that comes with it. dont forget that when ur husband gets his "twice" the amount too, he will need it to support u and all the women in his life like his mother and sisters.

we really need to start analyzing what's being fed to us from ignorant people about religions and start for once trusting the motives of religious sharia.

remember, not everything that seems unfair to "you" is necessarly so. It is always wiser to research and ask before throwing awfully stupid verdicts on God, religion and its followers.

the ignorance of your comments spreads to the hijab too, but thats another story. I suggest you read what a hijab means first as an arabic word from a proper source, and find wear it says that a hijab is for both men and women.

if u have something constructive to say, then say it...otherwise, u know what to do.

I know it would be not proper for me to say anything since i am not a muslim. But i do think it would be better for us to express our ideas modestly. Just give out our own ipinions from our point of view. I do hope everyone that interested in this topic describe your own ideas friendly and kindly. Thank you.

@rongson: I'm sorry if I seemed to be aggressive, comments of some follower of Islam may be interesting to you that have no experience about it, but for me or people like me who lived in a country with tight islamic rules, make me sick!!
@deserdudeshj: yes I am from Iran, I have lots of other funny things to tell if you are curious what is going on in this country. I am planning to leave too!
and finally @VRV: Sir, be sure I know the meaning of hijab!!! I lived with it! I know arabic very well, Cause they forced us in school to learn the language of quran!
about the supporting mother and unmarried sister, I should tell you it s not a rule, it is only recommended by islam to support your mom and sis. and thanks god we are not living in stoneage, unmarried sister can support her mom too. so there is a recommendation to support, and there is a rule to unfair heritage.
about hijab, hijab for women in islam means they can just reveal their face (not even neck!!) and their hands(till wrist) and their feet (beneath ankle). but hijab for men, means they only have to cover their p and a. I dont know how you are gonna justify that?
there are lots of rules like this. you should know i grown up with islamic education and believes but somehow i decided to revise and THINK about the things they fed us as religion. maybe you have to do this too. taking something for garanted and dont think about it just brings misery!
Good luck

Well excatly thats what the Iranian gentleman told me, that if you go to Iran about 80 to 90 % of Iranian youth will tell you that they are sick of Islam. All they have seen is war, death and misery due to it. But I would mostly blame the Govt of Iran for that and usuing their own intreptation of Islam to forward their political ideolgies. What does the war with Iraq have to do anything with Islam or most of Irans " so called " islamic laws

Although many countries Including Saudi, Iran and Pakistan claim to be Islamic countries they are not.

Rongson, it is true that compared to many countries of other faiths, Muslim women are oppressed and treated unfairly.

Read Nawal El Saadawi's 'The Hidden Face of Eve' for a thoroughly researched treatise on this, the author is a Muslim lady doctor from Egypt. It would open your eyes.

For anyone interested, it's available (or was when I bought it 2-3 years ago) from UAE bookshops.

Speedhump wrote:Rongson, it is true that compared to many countries of other faiths, Muslim women are oppressed and treated unfairly.

Read Nawal El Saadawi's 'The Hidden Face of Eve' for a thoroughly researched treatise on this, the author is a Muslim lady doctor from Egypt. It would open your eyes.

For anyone interested, it's available (or was when I bought it 2-3 years ago) from UAE bookshops.

Thank you, Speedhump, i'll have a thorough reading of that book in the future.

@desertdudeshj: you know the thing is cause reloigion in Iran interfered in every little aspect of people's life, we become this hysterical and obssesed about it!! my family are not into religion that muchn but I know friends who used to read every word of quran and go to mosque for praying and other stuff, but now they are all making fun of it and its lwas.
I my opinion, it is not just Islam, when any religion tries to put unfair and unreasonable restrictions in your life, makes you think why ever does it exist...

religion is good for praying, but thanks to this governement people are not even praying anymore in Iran, now in Ramadan in my office, we are 10 people but none of us fasts... cand all of us are muslims...

Melika, religion has been losing ground in Europe for 200 years, and it is fast becoming obsolete. USA is a worry, with its grassroots Bible Belt and strong reliance of politicians on invoking God to bolster their speeches (Tony Blair in the UK is gone now, thank 'God'). The Muslim world of course is the same, unable to move on while stifled by immutable Sharia law (how people can believe that laws made so long ago don't need overhauling/adjusting is quite incredible to anyone outside it).

Religion now is only useful as a crutch or prop for weak or needy people, and as such should be replaced with some new humanitarian support system for those in need. Most people do not need religion to tell them what is right and wrong, and don't need or believe in the threat of horrible punishment after death to influence their actions in the real world.

http://www.humanism.org.uk/humanism

I totally understand what melika and you speedos are saying. Religon is a choice and should not be forced upon anyone. It should be a personal choice and thats what Islam says. Even our prophet was named and given the duty of relaying the message and nothing else, thats why he is know as messenger of Allah and not the enforcer or warrior etc etc

Its when it forced down someone throat it becomes choking, neither being able to digest it nor being able to spit it out. I don't believe there is any religon in the world that forces itself upon its followers or makes them do things they are not comfortable with. I myself run away from these "jehovah witness" type people or if I have the time and in the mood confort them with solid facts and figures that there "preaching" is not required here.

The so called "Islamic" nations of this world today really need to look at themselves real hard and question themselves on how they are going about is correct or not !

thank you for the link speedhump,
so how is it in dubai or otehr arab countries? are they believe in Islam and obey the rules?

Dubai is more openminded than Saudi Arabia (the worst example) Kuwait is somewhere in the middle. Female nationals in UAE hold government ministry positions (also in Kuwait), and even can work on supermarket checkouts. In KSA women are not even supposed to drive without a male relative in the car with them, and even expat women are given a very hard time in the street by the Saudi religious police if the police say they are transgressing the moral code (western cut trousers, blouse not modest enough, etc).

Just a few examples, I'm sure others here can tell a lot better than I.

Speedhump wrote:.

Religion now is only useful as a crutch or prop for weak or needy people, and as such should be replaced with some new humanitarian support system for those in need. Most people do not need religion to tell them what is right and wrong, and don't need or believe in the threat of horrible punishment after death to influence their actions in the real world.

http://www.humanism.org.uk/humanism

I thought I'd jump in and comment on the above.

But first - on the thread's topic, as others have pointed out, Islam's rules do not allow for a Muslim woman to marry a non-Muslim. This is one of the rules - there is wisdom behind the ruling, but at the end of the day it is what Muslim's believe are God's laws (this ruling is in the Quran).

I totally agree with all those who point out that Muslim women are oppressed in many Muslim countries - unfortunately this is despite the teachings of Islam, rather than because of them - in all cases the religion is being misused to reinforce external misogynistic customs - eg tribal, regional or even political (in the case of Saudi, for example).

Islam does discriminate between men and women - but only in matters that are directly related to their physical nature, in the same way (to take a trivial example) that say athletics discriminates between the sexes when it comes to competition.


Ok - back to the point about religion.

You may be surprised to read that I actually have a lot of sympathy for Speedhump's summary of what religion is today. Actually, I would go a bit further - for many it is not even a crutch, but just a historical/cultural set of rituals that one observes because everyone else is doing so, or the family does so. This goes for all the major religions - including Islam.


I see it in a historical context - all religions go through the same cycle. Compare the theocracies of Europe's Middle Ages and we see a lot of similarities in the theocracies of today's Muslim world - including misogyny (interesting that - hadn't thought about that until now !)


When religion loses meaning and becomes as Speedhump describes - just a loose crutch that also gives some moral values, I do think it offends the thinking person to follow it. It offends logic - as to follow a religion that is 'dead' is totally illogical.


However, whenever in the past the religion of the time has reached this moribund state, we have always seen a renewal of faith by 'revivalist' movements or messengers or guided leaders - Islam, Christianity, Hinduism all have their examples. What they all say they are doing is taking people back to the fundamentals and basics of each religion.

That said, the only litmus tests I have for a religious set of values (i.e. a religion) is that it a. is logical and b. provides the prospect of a two way communication with God.

a. It has to be logical, because if God created us, He created logic and would not ask us to believe something illogical.
b. God will not stop communicating with mankind just because some clerics say He has stopped - history shows us that it is normally the clerics who are most astray, and therefore be wary of any cleric who says 'only get to God through me' or 'pray to such and such and they'll get to God' etc. So my touch stone is that the religion must promise an affirmation of the religious practices direct from God (else you may as well pray to Bill Gates - for whatever good that will do you).


Just my 2 cents worth.

Cheers,
Shafique

well I had enough of religion and its discussions and all the other crap in my life, not gonna answer how there is no wisdom behind some of rules...

so in comparison with KSA, in Iran we have an openminded government! you know woman can drive and work and study and in this last government, with our monkey president we have a woman minister!

Well, my rule of thumb is that if a rule is not logical, then it can't be from God and is the work of man. Not allowing women to drive is one of these illogical ones (but to be fair, Saudis don't say this is a religious law - correct me if I'm wrong - and there are now official murmurings that this silly law will be repealed - but I'm not holding my breath)

Cheers,
Shafique

Thanks for the lucid posts Shafique.

It is held that the theocracies of the Middle Ages crumbled when clerics no longer held the sole power to interpret the Bible and therefore dispense religious wisdom, which happened mainly due to Bibles being printed in English and German rather than Latin, and the layman fortunate enough to read was then able to go into a church and read it himself, and then preach to others. Later, wealthier people could actually buy bibles. Religion came into the home and people were able to make their own relationships with their God. Since that time, organised religion has been under pressure in Europe, and the slow revolution has com to the stage where religious faith has largely died out (in the young the situation is even more pronounced). I don't know what could force another religious revolution in the future to turn things around, but I suppose most anything is possible in the realms of chance.

You mentioned fundamentalism in respect to Islam also. Of course this has been a huge step backwards and is where the West's wrong perception of Islam has come from (I'm not talking about terrorists, that's another matter). Threatening to lash a teacher for allowing a child to name his teddy bear Mohammed is an example.

You might say that it is not Islam that is at fault but is application. Well that is the problem which has always existed with most of the large organised religions. It won't go away. I don't only have a problem with Islam, I want to be clear. Unfortunately I have no knowledge of modern vs past Hinduism, so can't comment.

If you want to believe in a creator then of course it's your right; my own faith is that if religion were wiped from the planet tomorrow (by some all-powerful, all-seeing hand ) we have the ability to replace it with something better.

Thanks for the chat.

Speedhump wrote:Thanks for the lucid posts Shafique.

It is held that the theocracies of the Middle Ages crumbled when clerics no longer held the sole power to interpret the Bible and therefore dispense religious wisdom, which happened mainly due to Bibles being printed in English and German rather than Latin, and the layman fortunate enough to read was then able to go into a church and read it himself, and then preach to others.

Yes, knowledge was indeed a cornerstone of the liberation. Whilst Islam's holy texts have been accessible to all from outset and there is no doubt over what forms the Quran or the clear injunctions of Islam - a similar system has developed with the clergy (in a loose sense) taking over the interpretation of religion and wanting followers to be sheep. The desired result is the same - attainment and retention of political power.

Speedhump wrote: Later, wealthier people could actually buy bibles. Religion came into the home and people were able to make their own relationships with their God. Since that time, organised religion has been under pressure in Europe, and the slow revolution has com to the stage where religious faith has largely died out (in the young the situation is even more pronounced).

By that time 'organised religion' had been corrupted and when people compared and contrasted the 'fire and brimstone' vs Bible teachings etc etc - the penny dropped.

The issue is not that religion per se is bad, but when it has become corrupted it is definitely not good. The original Christians (and from my perspective, especially the 'Jewish Christians') for example, didn't have to wade through the corruptions to get to Jesus' actual teachings. Take away the relationship with God and we find that Jesus' teachings are 'humanistic'.

My research shows that the same applies to Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster, Confucious and even Muhammad, pbuh.

Speedhump wrote:I don't know what could force another religious revolution in the future to turn things around, but I suppose most anything is possible in the realms of chance.

In the past this has taken place by God sending a reformer or messenger. Men tend to mess things up when they meddle off their own back. But that is another discussion altogether and presumes a belief in a God.

Speedhump wrote:You mentioned fundamentalism in respect to Islam also. Of course this has been a huge step backwards and is where the West's wrong perception of Islam has come from (I'm not talking about terrorists, that's another matter). Threatening to lash a teacher for allowing a child to name his teddy bear Mohammed is an example.

100% agree. (But I'm agreeing with the accepted definition of 'fundamentalist Islam' today, rather than the literal meaning of the word).

Speedhump wrote:You might say that it is not Islam that is at fault but is application. Well that is the problem which has always existed with most of the large organised religions. It won't go away. I don't only have a problem with Islam, I want to be clear. Unfortunately I have no knowledge of modern vs past Hinduism, so can't comment.

Yes - I do agree. However it is a cycle that takes place in every human community that I've looked at - ego is a mighty thing. Come to think of it, it would be interesting to see if Amnesty International, Greenpeace, World Wildlife Fund etc have these internal political wranglings etc that lead to splinter organisations etc - I suspect they may do, but I hope that they are all in the 'idealistic' phase of the 'religious' cycle for a while longer.

The old adage that Power Corrupts is one that I think is universal.

Speedhump wrote:If you want to believe in a creator then of course it's your right; my own faith is that if religion were wiped from the planet tomorrow (by some all-powerful, all-seeing hand ) we have the ability to replace it with something better.

I will fight for your right to believe in the above - and applaud your faith in human nature. I'm afraid my faith is a bit weaker than yours. 'You may say I'm a dreamer....'


Thank you for the chat too.

Cheers,
Shafique

thanks, this is very helpful

how long does it take to convert to islam? what is the process?

Actual conversion to Islam is really quite quick and easy, but the journey to get to the point where one chooses to be a Muslim is usually longer.

To become a Muslim one only has to profess the 'Shahadat' - the profession of faith:
"There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is His Messenger" - in Arabic (La illaha illallah Muhammadur Rassulullah)

That's it.


Once someone says this is their belief, they are Muslim.

Now, this simple profession of faith is pregnant with meaning though - it means that one believes that God exists and that He sent Muhammad, pbuh, with the final religion for mankind (for that is what God says in the Quran, and if we believe the Shahadat, we believe that the Quran is the literal word of God)

This then leads to the social laws of the Quran - eg don't drink, don't gamble, don't eat pork, restrain one's eyes from the looking at the other sex, being chaste outside of marriage etc etc - but more importantly one agrees to the spiritual injunctions - having faith in God, praying to Him alone, offering the 5 daily prayers, paying alms, paying the capital tax (Zakat), believing in angels, heaven, day of judgement, being charitable to all etc etc.

But the actual ceremony of converting is light on the lips, but heavy on the soul.

Cheers,
Shafique

I am extremely proud to see people such as speedhump and shafique discussing religion in the manner they did, and I would like to thank them both very much.

Gathering quickly my thoughts and giving it a try to give my humble opinion on some points mentioned... I believe that translating the bible was the best thing that happened to christianity, but not necessarly to europe.

If I was christian living in europe at medieval times and someone tells me pay money to give you a written redemption decree from my local holy figure and a staircase to heaven if I may say..and another tries to convince me that my own holy book cant be translated to me and only selected paragraphs will be paraphrased to me at church, I would definetly revolt against that religion.

that being said, I believe what europe went through was very different than what the muslim nation went through. christianity held europe in the dark and europe didn't make their progression, not until they decided to put christianity behind them

as for arabs, islam made them a nation and united them with millions of people and gave them the will and power to progress, advance and become a true civilization. muslims lost everything when they turned their back on islam not the other way around. it is when islam sharia was forgotten and replaced by dreams of nationalism, communism and liberasim that islam became a mere tool to govern people and hence all the ridicule and hypocracy.

is there one true islamic nation nowadays? of course not. the islamic nation of the past took care of education and of the poor, harbored many universities and funded inventions, had jewish and christian scientists and doctors, translated books to the muslims, protected it's residents, muslims, christians and jews alike.

final note, i believe that the application of islam politically and socially has been mixed with pre-islamic traditions, and islam is being blamed for absolutely everything that is wrong with the muslim world, but that isnt accurate at all.

thanks for ur time

VRV, no thanks needed, we have a duty to discuss these things in an intelligent manner if we can (of course some cannot).

In your post I see acknowledgement that all of the three main monotheistic religions are in disarray now. In my own mind I find it hard to believe that the threads can be pulled back together in any of them. The world is a very very different places to even just fifty years ago, let alone one or two hundred. People are far mor able to determine their own beliefs, or lack of them, by access to vast repositories of knowledge. The Internet for example is revelatory because of the lack of control exercised on it. For anyone able to sift wheat from chaff, it opens eyes worldwide.

The whole subject of belief, in a psychological sense, can be investigated (and even understood to some extent) by simply sitting at a computer. What do we believe? Why do we want to believe it? Can a person actually make themself believe if they don't really feel it? Do we believe in God, or do we just want to? Many more questions also need to be asked of themself by any person who truly wants to say they have a religious faith.

If we are willing to accept that our leaders have feet of clay, then our leaders pious principles are less likely to keep us oppressed. If we want to have religious beliefs then they will come from within rather than from without. That is a huge litmus test of organised religion. I don't think any of the will stand the test of time. Just my thoughts.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

Epicurus (341-270 BC)



Thanks to you too.