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US. Gainesville High public school with shirts bearing the message "Islam is of the Devil" and were sent home for violation of the school district's dress code when they declined to change clothes or cover the anti-Muslim statement on their clothing.
"Students have a right of free speech, and we have allowed students to come to school wearing clothes with messages,"

Pastor Terry Jones said no local company "had the guts" to print the shirts. Dove member Wayne said he then ordered the shirts over the Internet from a company that allows individuals to design their own shirts.

How sad...........US..land of the free & freaks

How many Muslim countries allowing public burning of American flags and effigies of US presidents? Oh, I see, that's OK.

How deep do your double standards run...?

Most European countries will allow the public burning of American flags and the burnings of effigies. In the UK, on Nov 5, burning of effigies is a national pastime... so I really don't see what your point is?

However, one can only wonder what the headlines (in the US) would be if some red-necks wore t-shirts saying 'Jews are of the Devil' and their pastor defended their right to print and wear the shirts. (or indeed if it said - 'the Pope is of the devil' - as many protestants believe)

For me, it seems the High School in the US was applying common sense.

Cheers,
Shafique

My point, of course, as is obvious, is that in the West freedom of speech and right to protest is ingrained in the laws and constitutions of countries, and more to the point is not limited to protest against religions and powers outside its own national ones.

If you beleve that all Americans are lovers of Jews, how little knowledge you really have of international matters. The fact that they have worked themselves into many positions of great power (not only in America) and have an incredibly powerful lobby in Congress which seems to be able to achieve almost anything does not mean they are universally loved. Your information is way off.

Pastor's defending such t-shirts as you describe? He didn't defend the anti-Muslim t-shirts it seems, but the students' right to free speech, or possibly as an answer to the constant 'death to America, death to Bush, rubbish that is regularly chanted in the streets of Muslim countries and broadcast around the world. Freedom of speech and thought, no?

November the 5th? Honestly, try to remain adult!

If as the original poster says it is freakish to protest like this then there seem to be a lot more freaks in countries in this region than in the West.

Speedhump wrote:How many Muslim countries allowing public burning of American flags and effigies of US presidents? Oh, I see, that's OK.

How deep do your double standards run...?

Really doesn't make sense SH I'm afraid, because we all know this does happen.

And why is it a double standard? Explain please.

You completely misunderstood. Have you ever heard of or come across sarcasm before? Try to read it again.

er yeah no it really doesn't come across as sarcasm either. Just confusing.

Speedhump wrote:My point, of course, as is obvious, is that in the West freedom of speech and right to protest is ingrained in the laws and constitutions of countries, and more to the point is not limited to protest against religions and powers outside its own national ones.

Two wrongs, don't make a right. If it is ok to burn effigies and flags in Europe, then why is this something to be condemned if it takes place in a Muslim country? It is a crime to burn the Stars and Stripes in the US (correct me if I'm wrong), so each country preserves what they hold dear to various extents.

Speedhump wrote:If you beleve that all Americans are lovers of Jews, how little knowledge you really have of international matters.

You seemed to have missed my point. I pointedly said 'redneck' as to refer to the section of US society that would believe Jews are from the devil. If this had happened, I proposed that the uproar would be more than that of the incident above - do you disagree?

Speedhump wrote:Pastor's defending such t-shirts as you describe? He didn't defend the anti-Muslim t-shirts it seems, but the students' right to free speech, or possibly as an answer to the constant 'death to America, death to Bush, rubbish that is regularly chanted in the streets of Muslim countries and broadcast around the world. Freedom of speech and thought, no?

err - no, indeed. The T-shirts were ordered by the Church. The Pastor Terry Jones was using the T-shirts with the intention of converting Muslims and complained that no local company had the 'guts' to print them.

Eg.:

Gainesville church uses children to spread its message of hate

...
Senior Pastor Terry Jones said spreading the church’s message is more important than education.

http://calvininjax.wordpress.com/2009/08/26/gainesville-church-uses-children-to-spread-its-message-of-hate/

Speedhump wrote:November the 5th? Honestly, try to remain adult!

If as the original poster says it is freakish to protest like this then there seem to be a lot more freaks in countries in this region than in the West.

I don't disagree with original post that the US has it's share of freaks. The religous (Christian) right who have 'young earth' themeparks and scientists who believe the earth is a few thousand years old because the Bible says so, are truly frightening (in a 'how can they be so gullible and influential' sort of way).

I made the point that I thought the school was totally correct to let common sense rule and send the kids wearing the church's t-shirts back home.

Cheers,
Shafique

The only thing wrong with this picture is that the children were very young, now you have bothered to post a link to a (slanted) blog I see it. I had assumed they were at least older teenage students. However this act was clearly is a response to the continual anti-American public hate acts in the Middle East and Subcontinent. No-one would be 'converted' from Islam by this t-shirt, this idea must be pure invention by the blogger.

Two wrongs don't make a right, but nor do any of the larger organised religions. Once they reach some critical mass they are taken over by worrying about their own continued existence and pervert their course.

Chocoholic wrote:er yeah no it really doesn't come across as sarcasm either. Just confusing.

So how did shafique understand? Are you a native English speaker?

Stop trashing this thread; either contribute sensibly or get out. You are not a moderator here.

Actually I don't think he did, seeing as he asked you what your point was.

And I'm simply asking you what you meant by that, if you can't explain yourself clearly and properly, well then what to do.

Whether he agreed with me or not he was intelligent enough to understand me linguistically. He can tell you himself if he can be bothered. Now stop trashing.

shafique wrote:Most European countries will allow the public burning of American flags and the burnings of effigies. In the UK, on Nov 5, burning of effigies is a national pastime... so I really don't see what your point is?

However, one can only wonder what the headlines (in the US) would be if some red-necks wore t-shirts saying 'Jews are of the Devil' and their pastor defended their right to print and wear the shirts. (or indeed if it said - 'the Pope is of the devil' - as many protestants believe)

For me, it seems the High School in the US was applying common sense.

Cheers,
Shafique

Shaf, as a rule aren't offensive messages in most places banned? I don't know of anywhere where you would actually get away with stuff like that.

It's kinda sad that people would reduce themselves down to that sort of level anyway. If it's for actual protest purposes then I couldn understand such actions, but there's no excuse for general hate mongering.

Chocs - I agree with you, I also think that in most places outrageously offensive slogans etc are banned, if only out of a sense of courtesy, if not the law. There are different cultural norms as to what is found offensive though, and also how demonstrations etc are characterised in the press/media.

Now before a molehill becomes a mountain, let me just give my perspective on what Speedhump wrote.

I have to say, I did take his first post as sarcastic - and sort of replied in the same vein. Note that when I said 'I don't understand your point' it was followed by a

The fact you didn't recognise his intended sarcasm is just one of those things - happens all the time in written communications (I often get the wrong end of the stick and it's cleared up with an explanation)

The later point was less sarcastic - about the different reactions in the US to anti-Semitism vs Islamophobia - but in this case I was agreeing with the school's stance at not allowing the messages to be displayed in school.

But the point Speedhump was (sarcastically) making, seemed to be along the lines 'Muslim countries burn US flags and effigies of the US president - this sort of free speech isn't objected to, but it is double standards to object to offensive slogans about Islam on T-shirts'. I took it as sarcasm as a. it wasn't a Muslim country that banned the T-shirt and b. I couldn't see a double standard in nostradamus' post which concluded that the US also has its fair share of 'freaks'.

Now - I'll step back and let the fight continue

Cheers,
Shafique

And another thread heading to FC.......................

Shafique I don't intend to let Chocoholic ruin the thread with a fight. Just be glad she is not moderator of the Politics forum....

I agree that cultural norms are what set the level of freedom of expression. I think we have to accept that these norms change constantly. The US is in a state of high excitement over Islamist terrorism being carried out wordwide. Against that backdrop it is hardly surprising that the US has this quite minor outburst of fanaticism (minor compared to the regular anti-US hysteria exhibited in the streets of Iran, say).

I still disagree strongly with the OP's insinuation that the US is 'the land of freaks', thereby tacitly inferring that he does not feel that any Muslim countries have exactly the same problem of xenophobia against the West. With your obviously strong command of semantics, you can't disagree that his post was deliberately skewed in this way. He has a problem.

I don't disagree that the children had to be sent home as I can see that they were being used as mouthpieces for their parents' intolerance; however I wish that flag burning mobs were treated the same way and set upon with the water cannon in some other countries also, rather than incited.

I'm glad that you were able to put Chocoholic straight on the subject of sarcasm. Sarcasm is the sharp tool of a blunt mind, I think, but I do fall prey to it sometimes.

Cheers Shaf. It's a shame that it does happen, but such is life in many ways so it seems and not just with slogan wearing and flag burning as well all know.

Can't disagree with a single thing that SH has to say (must be hung over!)

Perhaps looking at it from a different perspective might shed light from another angle on the subject.

T shirts such as the one mentioned, in western culture are seen to incite racial hatred, and as such are contrary to common law (or the rule of law applicable) and this is generally set in stone;

However in the flag burning nations where the rule of law is either ignored, for sale to the highest bidder or in the hands of politically motivated religious leaders (you know who you are) fanning the flames of racial hatred is sanctioned.

I personally find it amusing that the parties that most frequently jump on the accusation of inciting racial hatred bandwagon in the West, are those that hail from the flag burning nations and have a hidden agenda themselves. Freedom of Speech appears to be the territory of the minority - murdered on the altar of political correctness.

Should we take offense at being called a "Brit" if we come from the UK - I can go to jail for calling a Pakistani a "Paki", even if the person is a Pakistani passport holder called Paki bin Paki

Call me a Brit and I will sue yer ass !

viking-warrior wrote:Can't disagree with a single thing that SH has to say (must be hung over!)

LOL

We're OK in general I think.

Speedhump wrote:I agree that cultural norms are what set the level of freedom of expression. I think we have to accept that these norms change constantly. The US is in a state of high excitement over Islamist terrorism being carried out wordwide.

Agreed. I have argued that to a large extent the excitement is due to hype and misrepresentation - but that is another discussion. (Recommend a bbc documentary called 'the power of nightmares' that deals with the subject over the years.

Speedhump wrote: Against that backdrop it is hardly surprising that the US has this quite minor outburst of fanaticism (minor compared to the regular anti-US hysteria exhibited in the streets of Iran, say).

I agree that is how it appears on the media. I'd be interested to hear from Iranians (spoonman, where are you?) on what the reality is - the last documentary I saw, showed most young Iranians actually drinking coke etc. But I agree with your main point - that it is hardly surprising that there are some in the US who are acting fanatically against Islam.

Speedhump wrote:I still disagree strongly with the OP's insinuation that the US is 'the land of freaks', thereby tacitly inferring that he does not feel that any Muslim countries have exactly the same problem of xenophobia against the West.
With your obviously strong command of semantics, you can't disagree that his post was deliberately skewed in this way. He has a problem.

To be honest, I didn't see this deliberate skewness and thought his closing quip to be an attempt at humour - the land of the free and freaks - and no different from say Louis Theroux's excellent shows where he shows the freaks of different communities - proving the adage, give them enough rope and they'll hang themselves!

To be honest, it's a bit of a non-story all round - fanatical parents make kids wear outrageous t-shirts, school says no.

I'm appalled when I see muslim toddlers in suicide belts and Jewish kids writing on bombs - but I'm not surprised, as fanatics have kids.

So, apart from not seeing the 'obvious bias' in nostramus' original post (and he hasn't posted since), I think we are in agreement. I don't recall what nostramus' views are generally - so perhaps that's why I just read his first post at face value - as a description of some 'freaks' in the US.

Speedhump wrote:I don't disagree that the children had to be sent home as I can see that they were being used as mouthpieces for their parents' intolerance; however I wish that flag burning mobs were treated the same way and set upon with the water cannon in some other countries also, rather than incited.

I agree.

(However, sometimes reporting is skewed - an otherwise peaceful march in London will almost certainly be overshadowed in the media if a small group chooses to burn a flag etc. The skewing also happens in Eastern media as well - don't get me wrong, and I also condemn the manufactured protest that occur in many countries in the East - eg the riots about the Danish Cartoons - incited by politically minded mullahs and opportunistic politicians..)


Cheers,
Shafique

We are in agreement on most points, except that when you look at the OP's previous record he is strongly anti Bush, Israel, Pakistanis, anti a lot of things actually. I don't see humour in his posts except if used to stress his rather bitter points; rather I see a cynical sarcasm (in which vein I appear to have replied to him!).

Young and educated Iranians would seem to be the hope for the future of the country. You don't tend to see younger people in the Al Jazeera news clips with a sandal shaking in their hand and shouting. A country (OK, region; it didn't used to be Iran per se) with such a long culturally and technologically proud history is now at its lowest ebb, and I don't believe that you can blame the meddling of the US in its affairs for ALL of its current ills.

Thanks for the chat.

^ Thanks for clarifying - I wasn't aware of nostradamus' track record..

I agree with your observations and hopes for Iran. I do think there is more than a small element of demonising of the enemy going on (I mean, Kuwait and Saudi by all accounts are more oppressive regime than Iran - but they play ball with the US.. but that said, Iran is far from perfect - to put it diplomatically)

Cheers,
Shafique

Demonisation, certainly true on both sides of the fence. I watched a TV program today (prerecorded); there are currently 20 US basketball players currently playing for Iranian teams, the American guy interviewed said he felt safe and comfortable in Iran, and Iranians were very freindly and open to him. Also there are many synagogues in Tehran, and Iran has more Jews living there than in any other Middle Eastern country (outside of Israel of course). All religions and persuasions are allocated a proportional number of seats in the Iranian parliament (for what it's worth).

International media wars shape all our perceptions in ways we cannot imagine without our own first hand impressions.

Speedhump wrote:Shafique I don't intend to let Chocoholic ruin the thread with a fight. Just be glad she is not moderator of the Politics forum....

I agree that cultural norms are what set the level of freedom of expression. I think we have to accept that these norms change constantly. The US is in a state of high excitement over Islamist terrorism being carried out wordwide. Against that backdrop it is hardly surprising that the US has this quite minor outburst of fanaticism (minor compared to the regular anti-US hysteria exhibited in the streets of Iran, say).

I still disagree strongly with the OP's insinuation that the US is 'the land of freaks', thereby tacitly inferring that he does not feel that any Muslim countries have exactly the same problem of xenophobia against the West. With your obviously strong command of semantics, you can't disagree that his post was deliberately skewed in this way. He has a problem.

I don't disagree that the children had to be sent home as I can see that they were being used as mouthpieces for their parents' intolerance; however I wish that flag burning mobs were treated the same way and set upon with the water cannon in some other countries also, rather than incited.

I'm glad that you were able to put Chocoholic straight on the subject of sarcasm. Sarcasm is the sharp tool of a blunt mind, I think, but I do fall prey to it sometimes.

By the way there is a huge difference between burning a flag and calling any religion "the devil". Flags are simply symbols; emblems. In the case of the American flag, people burn the American flag considering it a symbol of the American government. Some things are untouchable such as race, religion and gender. I can wear a t-shirt tomorrow that says Manchester City STINKS (just an example of course!) and most people would not object. I can't however, burn a wooden cross in the middle of the street or carry a banner saying all those of Mongoloid origin should be beheaded. Governments come and go, some are good and others are not. You cannot fault people for burning the American flag when America has murdered hundreds of thousands in the past decade. No matter how insulting burning someone's flag is, it is just that: insulting. And no, this is not equivalent to insulting someone's religion. When someone burns the American flag he is registering a protest against America. There is only one America on this planet and that is the country at war with half the planet who he is targeting with his insults. It is a country that voted for its government and approved the murder of those victims. Islam however is not Osama Bin Ladin just as Judiasm is not the Jewish Defence League.

For the record, I am just using America as an example here because of its strained relations with well...the world.....recently. The same argument stands for Russia/Afghanistan, China/Tibet, Iraq/Kuwait. You get the idea. All I am saying is that burning a flag is nothing compared to some "legal" crimes committed. You have to evaluate the action before condemning the reaction.