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I was in the middle of typing my reply when you guys had your little quarrel and Liban locked the thread.....

Anyway I'll post my reply here:

Linda, I've made a lot of valid points here and I have said many times that the cartoons should not have been published and an apology should have been made. Many others have also said the same thing. Maybe you should do some reading in these threads before making false comments.

Was referring to Choco, not to everybody. I read your posts and I value your opinion, and do not oppose it. Maybe you should read some of my posts before you jump to the gun.

We are Westerners and we too believe in free speech. We can see that the publishing of the cartoons was very poor judgement. Why do we have to get flamed for saying that we understand both sides? Why do we have to throw ourselves down and and apologise and reject a belief from our culture that we value (free speech) just to appease some people on a forum who would think we are ignorant or racist otherwise?

Lay off the whole "we are westerners and therefore believe in freedom of speech". Freedom of speech is not a western value, nor is it eastern. It's a universal value for any griup of people that value freedom.

Denmark (or any other country) is not required to like Mohammed. But to intentionally insult Muslims by caricaturing him, is an outright violation of freedom of speech. Freedom of speech, and any freedom, pretty much ends when you start blindly insulting other people, you get prosecuted for that.

Also the double-standards annoy me. How come they never discuss -let alone caricature- historical events like the Holocaust? I'm not saying deny it, just discuss it. It's off-limits. Portraying Arabs in any positive light (or muslims) is off-limits either. Or else how do you explain the absence of any decent balanced muslim point of view in the media? They're few and far inbetween.

Linda, you are a wanna-be Arab and wanna-be Muslim who seems to have lost all understanding/affinity for her own culture. Many times you have said that the Western media is full of propaganda, but I can tell you that you seem to be reading too much propaganda from the other side. You are free to have your own beliefs, but you lose credibility when you support people like Liban who say hateful and inflammatory things just because you feel that Muslims have a right to be angry. You might condone anger, hate and violence, but I don't.

This is the 4th time you hint at the whole "it's because of your fiance" or "you're over-sympathetic to the Arabs" or babble like that.

Is it that far-fetched for you to comprehend that someone could actually reach a different conclusion/opinion then the one you have? Am I required (along with any western) to have this single agreed-upon opinion like my "kind". Well here's news for you, I don't have a "kind" , I'm human ... period.

You keep on talking about propaganda when you haven't attempted to refute/reply to a single point any muslim here has mentioned. Whenever it's something that sounds like cliches we've all heard in movies like : "The west has tortured us!!" you dismiss it as extremism. You're extremely narrow-minded and arrogant.

I'm not an Arab and I don't intend on "becoming" one, whatever that means. As for Islam, you don't have to be a Muslim-wannabe, you can just become a muslim.

It's extremely insulting that it just doesn't cross your mind that I might be actually on to something, or that I've heard/read/saw things that would alter your opinion if you were exposed to them as well. Rather you just presume that I'm a "lost cause" and that "Arab and extremist" influence got to me....

I deal with historical facts. With religious beliefs. With people involved on a day-to-day basis.

Sad ...really, where the freedom of expression and open-mindedness now?

Nothing can make me lose credibility, not you, or anyone like you. I don't "support Liban" , I don't take sides. But when it's an issue where theres no defending it, I take the side I believe is right and closest to my principles.

I thought that in a lot of issues, Liban phrased himself in an extremely provocative and alienating way, to westerners that is. But I am in no position to teach him how to talk. He gets flamed for it, and it's none of my business. I stick to the issue at hand, and if I happen to exhibit an opinion that is close to what Liban thinks, then tough luck. But I'm not gonna roll backwards and backpedal just so I'd "disagree" with Liban and appease you.

You might condone anger, hate and violence, but I don't.

I do? Oh I'm a selfhater now? A sleeper-cell? An extremist as well?

Don't be so naive to label things that broadly: "Condone violence". Nobody condones violence, even Bin Laden thinks that what he does/did is self-defense, and not agressive violence.

It's like when someone expresses his/her opinion on Israel by saying: "I just want the violence to stop!". That's extremely simplistic and irrelevant.

It's easy for you, and for me, and for Choco, and for Arnie, and any other Western to say "I don't condone violence", but it would be idiotic to say it when our present power as western nations, and riches, and influence only came from violence, and hegemony, and occupation, and colonialism, and the pillaging of natural resources of other countries. Yes we might forget, but to expect these victims to forget, and start with a clean slate is almost criminal.

This isn't ancient history I'm talking about. UAE and the eastern gulf states have gained independence from the UK in the 70s. Syria and Lebanon in the 40s, Algeria (after losing ONE MILLION people resisting the french) in the 60s ..... you have no idea of the magnitude of havoc we caused for the people of this area of the world and STILL do. This has nothing to do with Arab propaganda. AS a matter of fact arab media rarely mentions this anymore. It just needs the right perspective. When you dissociate yourself from where you come from, and judge by your respect of Human rights.

I do not like violence, or anger, or negativity ...etc, but I make the effort to understand what pains these people. Not dismiss them as extremists if they as much as utter a peep about the western role in the Middle East.

Call me and any others of us who have been vocal about the anti-West propaganda and hate-mongering going on here by some Muslims (and wanna-be Muslims) whatever you want. We have tried to have a dialogue but the "Muslim camp" on this board only answers with things like "a typical Western response" or some religious rhetoric or propaganda.

What dialogue? You have attempted yes. And I respect you for it. But as soon as anything constructive happens here, Arnie and Choc jump in the fray and turn it into a flame war.

One final thing: You keep on talking about me being the way I am because I'm with a muslim man.

Well you don't know me so you better not presume that kind of stuff. I had done a research on the effects of Western culture on Muslim immigrant children in Europe long before I met my fiance. It was one of the first things that made me see the western involuntary racism towards the "other".

When a 5 year old moroccan child, the son of a doctor in AMsterdam, comes to me everyday crying because the blonde kids have beaten him up and called him a "monkey", all of them coming from white trash backgrounds, then I'd understand when that kid grows up to be suspicious of those same white kids who grow up to speak about Human rights and freedom of speech.

I'm not saying every Muslim is a victim, nor every western is an agressor. I contend that -if given- the chance, people can understand eachother.

It just seems that The West doesn't feel the need to understand a civilization it deems "backward" due to it's current superiority.

We can invade them, pillage them, attack their religion, stereotype them, but they can't as much as burn an embassy when it;s gone too far?

You're not aware of any of that, and if you'd ask I'd answer. But you won't, sadly.

Linda, you stated before that I am the one attacking Liban and that he has a right to be angry as a Muslim - even though his posts are hateful and aggressive. You not saying anything to Liban about his conduct and justifying it to me means that you do indeed support it. That was my impression, but now you say that you don't agree with how he expresses himself. I sincerely hope that you would be more vocal when people are inciting hatred here, whether or not you feel that Muslims should be angry. Those are two separate things.

Liban is the primary hate-monger here, and he dislikes non-practicing Muslims, Muslims who don't fit his standards of a good Muslim, and the West and its politics and culture. How can anyone discuss with someone who thinks that everyone in those previously mentioned groups should be struck down by Allah?

Linda, I'm not disagreeing that the West and colonialism have impacted the world in negative ways, but you make it sound like the Arabs are the only ones who have suffered. As I have said in a previous post - stronger civilisations will always try to dominate other civilisations to gain more power, wealth and influence. Many civilisations have suffered because of this, and every civilisation has done it to someone else. Maybe there will be a huge war and backlash against the West, but I certainly don't have to be a part of it if I can help it! I can read and be wise about the propaganda coming from both directions, and if enough of us are against it we will use political and diplomatic means to keep peace.

Linda, I still feel that you are buying into some of the Arab/Muslim propaganda. The Western media is freer and fairer that what is found anywhere else - that is a fact. Sure the media can be abused for different purposes and agendas, but we have a whole selection of media sources to access and get different viewpoints to weed out the crap and be aware of where the manipulation is. Yes, Westerners are now becoming more fearful or suspicious of Arabs/Muslims because the media always love to show the sensational news about the extremists - but it is the radical Muslims who are trying to get themselves in the news in order to scare and intimidate people. Why is the blame solely on the Westerners then?

In regard to your one example, children are regularly beaten up because they are different in some way. That doesn't mean that the West is inherently prejudiced against Arabs/Muslims, and certainly not that they are conspiring against Arab/Muslims. Socioeconomic status also affects some people's viewpoints on race, religion, immigration etc. You have done your research in Europe, I'm guessing the Netherlands? Well, I am from North America and everyone comes from somewhere else. I've lived in a Nordic country and didn't like it because the culture was too homogenous. I was the right skin colour, but I faced prejudice because I was still an outsider. I'm not saying that North America is perfect by any means, but we do think differently than Europeans who have a more deeply embedded culture and have lived longer in a homogenous society. People and other animals tend to stick to their own kind and if different kinds are going to mix then there has to be education, understanding, and tolerance of difference. This is not easy, and there is always some kind of prejudice.

I've been talking about Arab/Muslim vs West in this forum only because other people have been bringing up the topic and pitting West vs East or wherever. My speaking out is a result of anger over the hatred some people here feel for me and my culture without understanding our side of the story and finding common ground to show that we aren't that different.

I am again being stereotyped as one of those people who paints all Muslims as terrorists. If this relates to my first thread weeks ago, I already explained that I didn't express myself well or clearly, and that that was not my intended meaning. Can you please keep that in mind for the future! Any reference I have made to extremists in the Danish cartoon threads is valid because it IS extremists who want to kill and cause destruction. The majority of Muslims are upset but peacefully protesting and boycotting. Do you disagree with me using the correct terminology?

I do not dis-like non practicing Muslims.... Thats laughable to even say that since many good Muslim freinds of mine are not 100% practicing.

I do not hate non-Muslims. I only think that non-Muslims do not know much about Islam, the ones on this list who attack me for example, and as such I dislike it when they speak for Muslims...

Liban, I can't find the threads at the moment, but you did bash non-practising Muslims. If someone else finds an example for me first, please do post it here to refresh Liban's memory.

I'm sure there are many Muslims who dislike you speaking for them.

Maybe you'll post a long thread with some actual thought and dialogue one day.

I have posted many a long thread on my opinions towards the west, Islam, and other faiths in the past....

Do a search...

Show me an example of bashing non-practising Muslims...

Wow, I actually found a thread where you are doing your religion proud. I wonder if a lot of it is cut and paste from elsewhere, but you compiled it here nicely, http://www.dubaiforums.com/viewtopic.ph ... sc&start=0

The common complaint from me and others is your two-faced nature. We mention it enough, now what are you going to do about it? How is anyone supposed to know how to relate to you when you are reasonable and nice one minute, then spewing hateful comments the next?

I'm still looking for one example where you said that a group of Muslims are not real Muslims, and you have previously called people some Arabic term. I don't remember, did it start with a k? You were weilding it like it was a bad word. Care to explain that one? There are other examples...

kanelli wrote:Wow, I actually found a thread where you are doing your religion proud. I wonder if a lot of it is cut and paste from elsewhere, but you compiled it here nicely, http://www.dubaiforums.com/viewtopic.ph ... sc&start=0

The common complaint from me and others is your two-faced nature. We mention it enough, now what are you going to do about it? How is anyone supposed to know how to relate to you when you are reasonable and nice one minute, then spewing hateful comments the next?

I'm still looking for one example where you said that a group of Muslims are not real Muslims, and you have previously called people some Arabic term. I don't remember, did it start with a k? You were weilding it like it was a bad word. Care to explain that one? There are other examples...

1) Thanks.... It took me forever to write. I remember it well . I'd like to add that sometimes anger gets the better of you and that is not a great quality I must admit. But it happens and we are all human after all

2) As for your second paragraph, I am a man of mystery... I will allow you to decide who I really am and what my real opinions are and we will see if you are right...

3) The word that starts with 'K'.... I beleive you are referring to the word Kaffir. Kaffir means a person who doesn't beleive in the teachings of Islam. The Jews call non-Jews goyim and this is similar. Nothing derogatory about it.

Soon, if people want, I can give a post also on the true meaning of Islam. What the Prophet used to do in the face of extreme adversity vs. what regular people do and ought to do...

But I fear it would just lead to flame wars... Although any rational person reading it wouldn't descend to flaming level... I think... [/i]

Thanks for the explanation Liban.

I'd like to point out that it isn't admirable to play games on a forum. Be who you are, don't hide behind your avatar to say things you may not mean, just to stir things up or offend people. If you are not confident enough in who you are to express yourself consistenly when dealing with people, then that is another matter entirely.

With respect, you are not a religious expert and Dubai Forums is not a place for you to be listing religious rules or behaviours for others to follow for them to be what you would consider a good Muslim. Live the way you feel is best for you, and discuss with others and your holy man at mosque. You are right in saying that you'd risk flaming because I'm sure other Muslims here wouldn't like to be judged by anyone other than Allah.

kanelli wrote:With respect, you are not a religious expert and Dubai Forums is not a place for you to be listing religious rules or behaviours for others to follow for them to be what you would consider a good Muslim. Live the way you feel is best for you, and discuss with others and your holy man at mosque. You are right in saying that you'd risk flaming because I'm sure other Muslims here wouldn't like to be judged by anyone other than Allah.

Sadly, you do not read my posts fully. I said I will be posting something on how The Prophet reacted in the face of adversity vs. how people react normally and how they should be reacting as per The Noble Quran, God's Book...

So I dunno where the judging part came from....

Seems I did assume incorrectly as to the contents of what you'd post on those topics. Sorry!

Liban

Please take a leaf out of Shaf's book. Just post facts as opposed to opinions in a way to provoke good discussion and debate.

You might be surprised at the positive response.

I haven't even posted what I wanted and yet people are assuming things...

Kanelli, its OK

Also, if you are expecting a book, don't. I will be straight and to the point.

When I first learnt of these stories on the Prophet's actions when faced with extreme adversity, I cried. Yes, I had tears in my eyes and even thinking about it makes me choke up.

Judge for yourself when I post, when I have more time to think straight - unlike at work.

Liban, I look forward to your posts about the Prophet's (pbuh) conduct when facing adversity. I'm sure it will shed light on a little known aspect of his life (outside of those who have studied the history of Islam).

Wasalaam,
Shafique

Dictionary definition of a broken record = Linda whatserface!

No matter how much you deny things, you only appear to reinforce the opinions some of us here have of you! Plus you're a fine one to talk about me having a superiority complex, have you taken a look at yourself lately?

And ooooo ohhhh sorry I made a spelling mistake, am I suppose to apologise for having a dyslexic day? Geez and you talk about others being judgmental!

I really don't care what you think of me, a person like you means nothing to me, and the things you said about me are totally untrue and unwarranted.

I've had numerous conversations with my muslim friends over the topic and all have expressed different views and I've respected all of them. They're still my friends and we have mutual respect for each other, something I can say I have zero for you.

You tell her Choc, way to gooooo

Very good points raised by Linda but, disappointingly, some people resorted to ad hominems, ad hominem tu quoques, straw man, and appeal to ridicule fallacies.

Linda_Stuiv wrote:Well here's news for you, I don't have a "kind" , I'm human ... period.

Very well said, sister!

Man, talk about resurrecting the dead. This thread is ancient and Linda is long gone.

Yeah I thought that this morning when I read it, she got chicken and ran away, cluck cluck cluck cluck!

Choco, come on. If she got fed up with us she has every right to leave. Believe me, I've thought about it myself a few times

Nucleus, don't forget to note Linda's faults - she blatantly assumed and twisted the meaning of some parts of my posts. There are logical fallacies present in many posts including Linda's.

It was mean of me to resort to ad hominem in my one post. I shouldn't have done that.

Kanelli, you're of a stronger character though obviously.

We've all been baited and ripped to shreds on this forum at one point or another, but hey many of us just get over it.

I think it's quite a shame that she didn't stick around as she did make some valid points, but there are ways and means of say them, as w all well know and are all guiltl of the same at some point.

Well, best not to talk about people who aren't even on the board anymore - after all, they can't defend themselves.