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Posted in general chit-chat, because, well, who would get to read it in the Religion forum....

Catalyst, regarding your tag line attributed to GBS (“If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe within the next hundred years, it would be Islam.”).

GBS was a gifted writer, but he was a strange guy, and also I believe maybe even a facist in his way. I found the following online today amongst several other things (I have looked at his life before, but not uncovered this rather unpleasant side) :

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http://askville.amazon.com/searching-Ge ... Id=8816046

George Bernard Shaw seems to have written some mighty strange stuff in addition to his classic works of literature. It is unclear to me what this article is about. But, in addition to this piece on Islam, it seems he also wrote in favor of Hitler’s right to exterminate the Jews.

"...While not an anti-Semite (Shaw wrote of Hitler that the "one hitch with his statesmanship" was his "bee in his bonnet" about the Jews) he showed marked indifference towards their lives, favoring a eugenicist’s argument, in 1938, "I think we ought to tackle the Jewish question by admitting the right of the State to make eugenic experiments by weeding out any strains they think undesirable."

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Re the quote you have mentioned, this seems to be a terrible misquote from an interview with him by this Muslim periodical in Singapore, to make it sound as though GBS was very pro-Islam.

A lengthy and seemingly well researched article is here:

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http://idlethink.wordpress.com/2008/12/ ... -of-islam/

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GBS was certainly curious about all religions, but the quote was seemingly manufactured. The quote is used often by Muslims today to act as some kind of burning torch to hold up and prove that a clever and thoughtful Westerner believed in Islam conquering the West, whereas GBS was in fact a true atheist (like many intelligent people).

Pretend quotes from current Western film/media personalities are sometimes posted by people like British Arab on these forums, and are also very widely circulated and re-circulated on anti-Western Islamic websites. A form of aprocryphal story (meaning they are generally pure invention but handed around and taken as truth by being told so many time). These stories are well received in the Muslim world where many people are not able, or possibly just not inclined, to research actual English language publications to check if they are true.

Above is just for clarification and in the interest of truth. Erudite literary proof to the contrary is welcomed! Who says DF is all about childish name calling and dumb games?

And a quote by the author of the second article, taken from the comments underneath it, showing that she is not in any way anti-Islam, just anti the misuse of the words of powerful men for corrupt ends (which is my whole point also):



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Yusuf, my gripe with the Bernard Shaw quote has never been out of disdain for Islam, which (being Malaysian and being fond of beautiful books (like the Qur’an)) I know a good deal about, and hold in quite high regard as a religion. My concern was entirely with the wholly unscholarly ways in which the quote was (mis)used on the internet — ways in which it remains unclear, at least to me, that it should have been used. I cite Shaw’s mockery not to endorse his ‘atheistic’ views, but above all as evidence for the claims I have made in this article about the way the quote has been misused, by websites that perhaps have not been scrupulous enough about their sources. I have hopefully used him in a scholarly manner, and I hope my own views on Islam, which are nowhere near as virulent as his, are not wrongly imputed by my doing so.

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There is nothing wrong with religions per se. It's the way they are used by the people who control them which is the problem. That's why I can't follow any of them.

Peace be unto you.

Symbol for Freethinkers:

Speedhump wrote:GBS was certainly curious about all religions, but the quote was seemingly manufactured. The quote is used often by Muslims today to act as some kind of burning torch to hold up and prove that a clever and thoughtful Westerner believed in Islam conquering the West

Never heard of this before. And I think only stupid people will consider a writer's thoughts as proof of their expected religion's dominance.

Speedhump wrote:whereas GBS was in fact a true atheist (like many intelligent people).

That was a very stupid statement. Intelligent people will be intelligent enough to realize that their complicated intelligence could never be a result of a single cell gone multi . They'll easily recognize the existence of a creator.

Speedhump wrote:Pretend quotes from current Western film/media personalities are sometimes posted by people like British Arab on these forums, and are also very widely circulated and re-circulated on anti-Western Islamic websites. A form of aprocryphal story (meaning they are generally pure invention but handed around and taken as truth by being told so many time). These stories are well received in the Muslim world where many people are not able, or possibly just not inclined, to research actual English language publications to check if they are true.

Just another wrong statement.

SH, I presume you would have read Richard Dawkins "The God Delusion", if you havent I suggest you do. The world appears to have been taken over by an evangelical storm; its not just the christians, or the Muslims or the Jews alone. A truly enlightened civilization would have no need for religion, and perhaps can go to the next stage of its developement once freed of this baggage. Alternatively, we might just destroy ourselves with the madness of the fairy tales that we call religion.

zonker wrote:The world appears to have been taken over by an evangelical storm; its not just the christians, or the Muslims or the Jews alone.

I agree. It's only because humans at personal level find a refuge in acknowledging the existence of a creator that's the supreme power controlling their universe.

zonker wrote:A truly enlightened civilization would have no need for religion, and perhaps can go to the next stage of its developement once freed of this baggage. Alternatively, we might just destroy ourselves with the madness of the fairy tales that we call religion.

Well, a civilization is composed of humans. And humans at personal level.........back to square one.

Metaphor79 wrote:

Speedhump wrote:GBS was certainly curious about all religions, but the quote was seemingly manufactured. The quote is used often by Muslims today to act as some kind of burning torch to hold up and prove that a clever and thoughtful Westerner believed in Islam conquering the West

Never heard of this before. And I think only stupid people will consider a writer's thoughts as proof of their expected religion's dominance.

Speedhump wrote:whereas GBS was in fact a true atheist (like many intelligent people).

That was a very stupid statement. Intelligent people will be intelligent enough to realize that their complicated intelligence could never be a result of a single cell gone multi . They'll easily recognize the existence of a creator.

Ah, so GBS was not intelligent. Sorry it must be my mistake! Looks like I have started a religious argument. That's easy with people who don't even think to question accepted beliefs that kill millions upon millions in the name of their own adopted deity, and believe that famine and disease are sent to them by 'their maker' (you would call these people 'intelligent' I think....). Actually it's not possible to have an intelligent and reasoned argument with someone who calls the other persons view 'stupid', so it's not even worth me pursuing beyond this message.

Speedhump wrote: Pretend quotes from current Western film/media personalities are sometimes posted by people like British Arab on these forums, and are also very widely circulated and re-circulated on anti-Western Islamic websites. A form of aprocryphal story (meaning they are generally pure invention but handed around and taken as truth by being told so many time). These stories are well received in the Muslim world where many people are not able, or possibly just not inclined, to research actual English language publications to check if they are true.

Just another wrong statement.

It's very true I'm afraid. Just like there are Western websites full of lies about Arabs and Jews. But your blindness would only see those and not the Muslim propaganda? Shame on you.

A Lebanese friend of mine sent an email she had received to her friends, including me. The email was a list of wildly anti-Islamic statements supposedly made in public by US film stars/celebrities. Quite honestly just one of these statements would have had any of them roasted by the free press because of the furore it would have created with the public. There was no furore. None of the statements had ever been made. But the emails coming back to my friend from her Muslim friends were all angry and accusatory towards the stars. The thing was just completely believed, no-one even thought to question whether this could actually have happened.

That's how religions work too.

zonker wrote:SH, I presume you would have read Richard Dawkins "The God Delusion", if you havent I suggest you do.

Thanks, I'll look. My reading list is too long already though

The world appears to have been taken over by an evangelical storm; its not just the christians, or the Muslims or the Jews alone. A truly enlightened civilization would have no need for religion, and perhaps can go to the next stage of its developement once freed of this baggage. Alternatively, we might just destroy ourselves with the madness of the fairy tales that we call religion.

My thoughts exactly, but while it is still possible for powerful people to control billions by asking them to believe in something intangible and unprovable, then we will not be free of superstition.

Interesting that metaphor didn't call you unintelligent (or even stupid ) for your anti-religious stance. Is he your friend? I'm never sure of the dynamics here!

Well, metaphor, there were (individuals) humans on planet earth about 20000 years ago, but there was no civilization! Then the Sumerians came and the Egyptians, where the history of human civilization starts. Moreover, I was talking about ENLIGHTENED civilization.

SH, I was born under a lucky star, so Metaphor didnt call me "stupid"

zonker wrote:Well, metaphor, there were (individuals) humans on planet earth about 20000 years ago, but there was no civilization! Then the Sumerians came and the Egyptians, where the history of human civilization starts. Moreover, I was talking about ENLIGHTENED civilization.

SH, I was born under a lucky star, so Metaphor didnt call me "stupid"