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You might want to read the front page of 7 Days today, where a Danish Imam is accused of stirring up trouble, by touring the middle east showing the pictures, 3 of which were never printed in the paper in the first place. They're saying that this whole thing would not have exploded out of control as when the images were first printed they were largely ignored. But a group travelled to the middle east showing them to Muslim groups here.

Was he deliberately trying to cause an inflamitory situation?

pacificsurf619 wrote:


It sucks having immigrants come to your country, refuse to adopt your culture, and then start violently protesting over any thing that could possibly ignite.

People have to walk on egg shells around anything islamic, but the president of Iran can openly say the holocaust didnt exist.
The west was very upset over those comments, but did they burn the Iran embassy down? Oh wait, thats coming. Nevermind.

Well I am a westerner and from West and I am ashamed of some things our forefathers have done and yes leaving the legacy to my children. West has been always arrogant until last 30 yrs attitude changed. Now U cant FORCE ppl to adapt a culture. We werent forced to adopt Indian culture when we came to New World. What did we do ? eradicated them and made their generations so bad that they cant even recuperate-> there is high crime, alcoholism and other crap in First nation society.

Secondly, West dont care about religion anymore wht they care is money honey. So what do they do? Do it legal way. Go to the war. Yes we have boys who do stuffs in "legal way" like bombing Iraq to find WMD. Now who is gonna punish those naughty bros UK and USA their papa -> UN? hahaha. Well u know USA didnt give a crap about going to way and yes they went against UN's decision , yes that country which supports "democracy" dumped the decision of 120+ nation! Now Pacific u get my point? They have suicide bombings, burnings and other shit cos there arent any troops to protect em or those ppl are fed up being enuchs. Suicide bombin was started recently less than 10 yrs ago in Palestine Why? cos after 50 yrs of struggle nobody gave them shit. Cos palestinians dont have the merkava tank, apache etc to protect the citizens like isreal so they follow the "illegal" way - Bang Bang.


No I aint a proArab suporter or another blind support of blind movement.U have to see the past, the causes for these things. No I dont even accept the violence . The personal losses of the hostage takers do not justify the murder of somebody in revenge, but it does make the point that these "terrorist" attacks do not just come out of the blue for no reason.

West's policies in world over the last 50+ years or so have laid the groundwork for what is happening. Wars in far away places have a nasty habit of rebounding on people.

Chocoholic wrote:Liban, Please open your eyes, many so called Muslims do at least the above anyway.

So-called Muslims... You hit the nail with the hammer straight on. I refer to the Muslims that are practicing ones. Not non-practicng Muslims.

The West created the mess we are in today. It all stems down to the creation of Israel. Before 1948, you never heard of Muslims/Arabs being called terrorists. We were in the desert having a blast with our harems

Stick to the point people.

I have a few points to mention pertaining to the issue:

1-Do you agree or disagree that the caricatures were offensive, irrelevant, and lacking of any context?

If Yes, then by what right do you expect people of a different culture/faith to react to the way YOU think is "right"?

What moral high ground do you have (or think you have) that qualifies you to dictate your "Expectation" of a reaction on Muslims? Specially when you (any western) are dissociated from that culture/religion and the whole civilizational experience?

You can't blame anyone for the "reaction" they have, because the crap has already hit the fan, you should blame the action.

End of Story.

Islam is more central to its followers' lives (yes even the ones that drink and have pre-extra-marital sex Choco, the ones you like to point out to hint at hypocrisy when Christianity itself says that you shouldn't commit the Adultery, and yet you find nothing hypocritical about Christians doing that) than most religions. That might be hard to understand to a secular european (and I underline European because USA, despite all, did not publish these caricatures and actually condemned them) , but it does hold up. You can't blame people for having a "strict" reaction to a religious offense, when they themselves take religion more "strictly" than you do.

I find it ridiculous that Muslims are now being blamed for their reactions. So what if an embassy was burned down? It's a building of metal and stone. Did anybody die?

I think that it serves Denmark right.

If a collaborative muslim/non-muslim Danish demonstration went on the streets early on to condemn that newspaper, none of this would have happened.

But it seems that the Danes didn't really mind that offence. Oh well, face the consequences then.

And for those that say that the Danish muslims should have dealt "peacefully" with the event. Danish muslims tried to meet the editor of the newspaper, tried to meet with their representatives in the Parliamant, tried to meet with the PM, but all doors were shut in their faces....

So it's bad for other muslims to jump in the fray and protest against offending their religion?

What kind of twisted logic is that?

Also, for God's sake, stop reading 7days, it's a cheap adaptation of your average tabloid, and the westerners in the Springs/Greens..etc are in love with it because it feeds into their ignorance and is particularly aimed at them. It has no credibility whatsoever.

Also Maad: Samuel Huntington is dead wrong on every point he makes. He is celebrated by the Christian Right in the USA, and is almost their political/historical mentor, along with Bernard Lewis. But in reality that guy is a lone voice in the vast majority of scholars/academics.

Yes a lot of people in the West would love to believe/make it look and propagate the notion of a "clash of civilizations". It's very fun when you "The West" is the top gun and the tough guy. But in reality civilizations, for the most part of history, have co-existed and more-or-less peacefully engaged in a discourse.

You want proof? I won't mention technical political and historical events.

You just have to logically look at the scene today. The world is more open and more tolerant to learn about different cultures and engage/live/work with "the other" more than ever. And that has been the slow but sure shift of things. That only indicates that things will get better in the future.

The problem with the "clash of civilizations" theory is that it propagates itself. In other words, people start from believing in it, because of their delusional superiority or xenophobia, and act upon it, and the actions of other people that believe the same thing (and in powerful positions) only re-inforces the notion of it happening.

The majority of populations however, whether in the East or West do not like the notion, nor believe in it. Even the most extreme always use that old "a small minority is ruining the image" broken record.

Who controls policies, funding, scientific research ...etc, in the West? The major trans-continental corporations. Namely the Science/Industry/Military complexes, and these people would be out of a job if people started believing in peace and harmony. It is in their best interested to propagate people like Samuel Huntington.

Civilizations are not solid objects in war and conflict and doomed for eternity(Like Samuel Huntington suggests). Civilizations are made by people, and people can change it, and people -no matter who you talk to- ultimately seek peace. That -in essence- nullifies the notion of a "clash".

The above is the only reason for the few "setbacks" we see every now and then. But in general I can safely say that people around the world have more respect, tolerance, and knowledge of other cultures, and the trend is ever intensifying.

One last thing: Of all newspapers/countries, even ISRAEL, in it's most widely distributed newspaper Haaretz, has condemned the caricatures and said that the rage by muslims is understood. I would suspect that they "understand" because Jews in Israel are also religious and would identify with such an offence.

Which brings me to another interesting question: If you as much as say that there was ONE person less than 6 million jews killed by the Nazis, you get your arse thrown in jail by law in Europe, after hell is unleashed by the Jewish lobbies and media outlets in Europe. Can you imagine what would happen if ... say .... a european newspaper publishes a caricature of Moses or even a modern secular Jew like Hertzel with a sniper rifle by his side?

I don't think any of you oh-muslims-are-reacting-bad people would utter a word now would you? It would only intensify your feeling of guilt towards a group of people you had nothing to do with their abuse (and that is also a reply to Kanelli which said a few days back that she shouldn't sympathize with Muslims since she had nothing to do with the event), you have to actually kill/maim/offend somebody to sympathize with them? Wheres your humanity?

Thanks for post Linda. I am glad to see people who are actually enriching the discussions.

I never "celebrated" Samuel Huntington or his theory i just thought that what is going on today is really a byproduct of people who beleive and act in that way. I still beleive the clash's today are idelogical more than anything else. Although the internet/media frenzy today has made a big difference and you cannot compare civilizations co-existing together at the same time in the old times to today.

Regardless you have made some very valid points.

Linda, I happen to have a lot of friends that work for that paper so shut up you silly woman!!!! They're all great journos with a lot of credibility! Plus that particular news story would have come from Reuters - the biggest news agency and wire in the world, the other papers are too chicken sh** to pick it up, is the truth!

All the big stories are provided by Reuters, WAM or the Associated Press Agency, unless it's says so on the article, so don't talk about what you don't know!

Oh I suppose you read Emirates Today - what a heap of crap of a paper that is! They're so terrified of covering any major hard hitting stories as they're government owned and scared of getting into trouble - ooooo eeeerrr!

Linda

I find your post and the tone of serious concern.

Stick to the point people.

I have a few points to mention pertaining to the issue:

1-Do you agree or disagree that the caricatures were offensive, irrelevant, and lacking of any context?

If Yes, then by what right do you expect people of a different culture/faith to react to the way YOU think is "right"?

What moral high ground do you have (or think you have) that qualifies you to dictate your "Expectation" of a reaction on Muslims? Specially when you (any western) are dissociated from that culture/religion and the whole civilizational experience?

You can't blame anyone for the "reaction" they have, because the crap has already hit the fan, you should blame the action.

End of Story.

and


I find it ridiculous that Muslims are now being blamed for their reactions. So what if an embassy was burned down? It's a building of metal and stone. Did anybody die?

I think that it serves Denmark right.



You and your arrogant and misguided views me


End of.....

Linda-presumption about what other people think is the basis of racism. You presume alot Or you're a mind reader.

Linda, very good post, thanks for it.


Typical respond form the "Other" Camp

Choco, Arnie, GAB

They were not able to refute or go into discussion about your points and just tried to pick some minor irrelevant points just to distract the forum from your main discussion.

Guys leave your feelings and reply with facts.

cheers

yshimy wrote:Linda, very good post, thanks for it.


Typical respond form the "Other" Camp

Choco, Arnie, GAB

They were not able to refute or go into discussion about your points and just tried to pick some minor irrelevant points just to distract the forum from your main discussion.

Guys leave your feelings and reply with facts.

cheers

Yshimy, forget it... Those people are bigots and closet racists. They are stuck in the mediocre ways.

The whole them against us thing is just boring. The points made show a lack of understanding of both Islam and Christianity. The amount someone follows their faith or their beliefs depends on them. Yes, I have Muslim,Christian and non-religious friends all who have varying ideolodies within their own faith. You cannot speak for all Muslims nor can you speak for all other faiths.

Islam is more central to its followers' lives than most religions

Please let's stick to fact.

How people interpret their faith and obide by it varies from person to person. I've seen both religions strictly adhered to and both well, not so.

The destruction of property was uncalled for. I don't think it is just people of one faith commiting acts of agression and violence. It would be naive to think so. Mob mentality exists and some people unfortunately see this as an opportunity to create havoc.

Personally, having a Muslim boyfriend didn't make me jump on my soap box and talk for ALL Muslims and denigrate ALL other faiths. A show pony is just an ass to some.

yshimy wrote:Linda, very good post, thanks for it.


Typical respond form the "Other" Camp

Choco, Arnie, GAB

They were not able to refute or go into discussion about your points and just tried to pick some minor irrelevant points just to distract the forum from your main discussion.

Guys leave your feelings and reply with facts.

cheers

Yhsimy, truth is I couldn't be bothered! This woman has a one sided view and is unwilling to consider other peoples points of view, I don't entertain people like that! Plus I happen to work in the media and write articles for many publications here, so I don't need some upstart telling me my business!

Liban,

If you're constantly going to bang on about racism - which is totally not true by the way - what about your attitudes to anything 'Western'? Pot, Kettle Black, me thinks!

hmm.... I've mentioned some valid points, historical, political and logical.

Yet I get insults and personal attacks.... kinda violent for people that defend that danish newspaper under the pretence of "freedom of speech" isn't it? I get attacked if I say something "politely" that you do not agree with, but it's wrong for muslims to attack if their most sacred scriptures/individuals are being ridiculed?

Hypocritical isn't it?

And what is the "other point of view" choco? Enlighten me sweetheart, because insults and personal/irrelevant attacks is all that you spew. If that's the way you carry out your "work in the media" then I'm not surprised that you like 7days and other cheap tabloids .

Moving on ....

It appears (quoted by the Guardian, a real newspaper, not 7days) that Jyllands-Posten had rejected a caricature of Jesus Christ 3 years ago, because it thought it would "offend" it's readers.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international ... 01,00.html

The guy in charge in Jellands-Posten retorted :""In the Muhammad drawings case, we asked the illustrators to do it. I did not ask for these cartoons. That's the difference," he said"

You're kidding me ..... an artist volunteers to publish caricatures of Jesus Christ , which "some" might find offensive, and you reject him, which is different from actually ASKING artists to draw cartoons that OFFEND muslims?? Of course it's not the same, its MUCH worse!! Wheres the freedom of speech when it came to Jesus Christ?

Any comments?

Chocoholic wrote:Pot, Kettle Black, me thinks!

You make no sense at all...

Must be some Brit thing....

Liban wrote:

Chocoholic wrote:Pot, Kettle Black, me thinks!

You make no sense at all...

Must be some Brit thing....

It's like the pot calling the kettle black - basically means you're being hypocritical.

Linda, you obviously didn't read my post! As I said that particular news story came from Reuters, but 7 Days was the onyl paper to have pocked it up as the others are too scared to pront such things - so you're now being a critic of the big international news agencies? And the story you talked about also came from the same sources - so please get your facts straight.

Liban wrote:

Chocoholic wrote:Pot, Kettle Black, me thinks!

You make no sense at all...

Must be some Brit thing....

It's like the pot calling the kettle black - basically means you're being hypocritical.

Linda, you obviously didn't read my post! As I said that particular news story came from Reuters, but 7 Days was the only paper to have picked it up as the others are too scared to pront such things - so you're now being a critic of the big international news agencies? And the story you talked about also came from the same sources - so please get your facts straight.

And just because something is cheap or free it has no credibility - oh please you're such a loser!

Plus nobody said it was wrong for muslims to object to the cartoons, I bloody object to them printing such things, but the violent methods are wrong!

For goodness sake do you ever read anything or are you just inherantly stupid!

It's inherently

So .. more insults.

Obviously, you're incapable for holding an intelligent and logical conversation. You and your sidekicks just enjoy flaming people on the forum, when you -nor they- have any valid points to think of.

Read my post again, see if you can muster the knowledge and calm to reply in an orderly manner.

You're still the frenzied wide-eyed hysterical choco we've all come to know and brush off as a minor nuisance .... ahhh the good days But there's room for improvement, don't despair

As for "no violence" .... you can't tell and dictate how people should react to an offence you do not understand to start with, according to a way YOU view as "right" .... what gives you the right?

The best you can do, is express your sorrow for the ongoings, condemn the caricatures and the misuse of freedom of speech to intentionally insult a religion, and then shut up , you have no right to tell people how to react to something like that. Unless you were a muslim of course, then you'd have a say.

Your arguement, as usual, just leaks supposed superiority when it's very obvious that you lack the knowledge and open-mindedness to engage in such discourse. If you do not understand muslim anger, you might as well ask about it.

But you didn't, you just rushed to condemn .... condemn what? the burning of embassies? Big deal.... How about the systematic destruction of Iraq since 1991?

Admit it, you just think that these people -although have a good heart- are just primitive, and barbaric, and follow a backward way of life, and someone like you, which is basically a nobody, holds all the answers to their problems, and speaks from an ivory pedestal because ....... you're anglo-saxon? No body cares honey, this is the 21st century.

You're owned now. Go take a cold shower.

7Days:

When I said cheap I meant the quality of the covering of news, the not the actual price of it ..... but as usual, you couldn't get that.

7Days follows an inciteful/provocative language in it's articles, a characteristic of tabloids, and we all know that tabloids are second if not third-rate journalism.

As for your little "they report international agencies stories!!!!!!" outcry. Yes , a lot of their stories are taken from international news agencies, BUT taken selectively. Out of the past 8 issues, about 6 feature long-bearded/terrorist/negative stories about muslims/Arabs on the front page.

Some stories like the Springs/Emirates Hills pool closing, are ok by me. But then again, these are local unimportant news.

Do you honestly think that if there were any stories that the government wouldn't approve of, that 7days, or any other newspaper would be able to print them? Do you believe this dumb delusion that the people behind 7days, all of whom all Brits, are somehow the martyrs of free journalism putting their lives on the line? Oh stop this non-sense. Your racism is very apparent. The Arab newspapers are basically cowardly, and the one managed by the brits is the honest ray of light in the midst of ignorance, right?

They voice the opinion of marginal people in the Arab society, like this corner called "Arab Eye" or something. Some guy supposedly representative of the Arabs, wrote that he was against demonstrations, and insulted a certain "Omar Khayam" and compared him to the Persian Omar Khayam which lived 1000 years ago, in a painfully irrelevant and weak analogy, does every Joan have to follow the steps of Joan of Arc?

That guy has the right to express his opinion of course, but when he is given a column called "Arab Eye" and when that newspaper is almost exclusively read by westerners in Dubai, the false delusion of that guy being representative of the "enlightened" and "westernized" i.e : GOOD! Arabs. And that someone like him is the moderate voice, where other Arabs that express a different opinion are "bad".

Examples go on and on. But one thing is true, the way they select stories, and the way they phrase their articles is highly inciteful, and second-rate journalism.

You dare to accuse me of being a one-view person? I'm open to both points of view. It's just that the way you reply, and just stick to your opinion out of personal arrogance (which would be ok if you had any logical facts to support it) when it has to do with a region/culture/religion you know nothing about is just sickening.

Lemme guess, your reply would be :"But I have a lot of Arab friends!!!"

What the hell does that have to do with anything? Can you speak Arabic? Can you read Arabic? Have you attempted to discuss/ask any of the major religious/cultural issues to any mainstream (not the pathetic western-wannabes) muslim/Arab? What do you know about Arab Culture? What do you know about Islam? What qualifies you to even say anything concerning that? Oh wait, your source about Islam/Arabs is Reuters?

Yet , not only do you engage in such threads with fervent persistence, you also call names, insult opposers, and label people?

Get a grip, realize that you know nothing, listen and learn.

Linda, I've made a lot of valid points here and I have said many times that the cartoons should not have been published and an apology should have been made. Many others have also said the same thing. Maybe you should do some reading in these threads before making false comments.

We are Westerners and we too believe in free speech. We can see that the publishing of the cartoons was very poor judgement. Why do we have to get flamed for saying that we understand both sides? Why do we have to throw ourselves down and and apologise and reject a belief from our culture that we value (free speech) just to appease some people on a forum who would think we are ignorant or racist otherwise?

Linda, you are a wanna-be Arab and wanna-be Muslim who seems to have lost all understanding/affinity for her own culture. Many times you have said that the Western media is full of propaganda, but I can tell you that you seem to be reading too much propaganda from the other side. You are free to have your own beliefs, but you lose credibility when you support people like Liban who say hateful and inflammatory things just because you feel that Muslims have a right to be angry. You might condone anger, hate and violence, but I don't.

Call me and any others of us who have been vocal about the anti-West propaganda and hate-mongering going on here by some Muslims (and wanna-be Muslims) whatever you want. We have tried to have a dialogue but the "Muslim camp" on this board only answers with things like "a typical Western response" or some religious rhetoric or propaganda.

Serious dialogue???

Huh... When one agrees with your views, its serious dialogue. When one says you are wrong because you do not understand Islam then its extremism at work...

Whatever!!

Liban wrote:Not a single Muslim EVER caricatured Jesus Christ and Moses and Abraham (peace on them)..... EVER!!!!

Hm.. And how would you know it?
For an instance I believe that a true Christian wouldn't do this as well, but how can I know it?
I think though that it is more probable to be done by a not religious person that believes
mostly in the sanctity of freedom.
A funny thing is this freedom, it should end where others' freedom
begin.. but some people just don't seem to get it.
When you smoke, shit or draw caricatured gods closed in your apartment
this is one thing - you are free to do whatever you wish. But if you
smoke or shit in public it's a totally different thing... you are
poisoning my environment and I will react to it... the same is with the press, it is public...

So if you got a response to your message that you don't like then this
is the meaning of your message.. want to get a different response try
sending a different message. It's really wrong to belive that a
message has an universal meaning that everybody should understand in
the same manner.

Andyba wrote:

Liban wrote:Not a single Muslim EVER caricatured Jesus Christ and Moses and Abraham (peace on them)..... EVER!!!!

Hm.. And how would you know it?
For an instance I believe that a true Christian wouldn't do this as well, but how can I know it?
I think though that it is more probable to be done by a not religious person that believes
mostly in the sanctity of freedom.
A funny thing is this freedom, it should end where others' freedom
begin.. but some people just don't seem to get it.
When you smoke, shit or draw caricatured gods closed in your apartment
this is one thing - you are free to do whatever you wish. But if you
smoke or shit in public it's a totally different thing... you are
poisoning my environment and I will react to it... the same is with the press, it is public...

So if you got a response to your message that you don't like then this
is the meaning of your message.. want to get a different response try
sending a different message. It's really wrong to belive that a
message has an universal meaning that everybody should understand in
the same manner.

well said admin well said....