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Al Jon wrote:Thats certainly a typical cultural trait in Asia, from Japan, Taiwan, China Malaysia etc.

Not had enough experience with Indians / Arabs to know if that is common or not. But I agree with your observation. I think accepting responsibility and honesty are more highly regarded in our society, whereas, social harmony is the no.1 factor in Asia.

Does this mean the employers know this? That asians by culture are liars and do not take responsibility and that westerners have the guts to take on anything?
I guess "culture" and stereotyping races' traits is the basis then?
How would an employer know the applicants real traits by just looking at his resume? How would an employer know if the things written in there, for both asians and westerners, are for real?
Too bad they wouldn't know the REAL attitide of people at work until they start working for them.

Medvezhonok wrote:Yup, when I came to Dubai I just threw my Canadian passport at my job interviewer which made him bow down and offer me a position as Vice President of the company.
I angrily replied that, as a Canadian, I would accept nothing less than a job as CEO, to which he promptly apologized for his rudeness and gave me the position. He then offered to come to my house and do my laundry (which is also a normal service provided to holders of US, Canadian, EU etc. passports).

LOL

I think Educational Qualifications and Work Experience plus skills and capabilities to do the job should be more important above anything else. Adding to this of course are the virtues of the person which will help him to build a good relationship with his employer and collegues.

Passport should not be the factor to determine one’s salary/package. However, it has been a common observation that mostly Asians accept a package that is not even equal to what the western expats received. There are obvious reasons why mostly asian tend to accept below average salary package. One obvious reason is unemployment from the country of origin.

Al Jon,
Coming from a country with poor economy, I find it pejorative to use the term “Third (3rd) World Country” when referring to Asian countries as if Asian countries are not part of the world economy. We could be poor in terms of economy but we are not “third world".

SCY wrote:Passport should not be the factor to determine one’s salary/package. However, it has been a common observation that mostly Asians accept a package that is not even equal to what the western expats received. There are obvious reasons why mostly asian tend to accept below average salary package. One obvious reason is unemployment from the country of origin.

As I explained earlier, this is an easy one. In asia, the cost of living is much much lower than in the US or Europe. Therefore a European would be far more likely to turn down the same position at that pay rate, than someone from Asia or Eastern Europe, because everybody is trying to save money.

I don't see any non-Europeans doing the same job here as Europeans and not getting a similar package.

As for unemployment back home, sure that is a reason...if they can make enough money somewhere else to survive, then its an obvious choice.

Remember however that many countries in Asia enjoy much lower taxes than in Europe. We pay higher taxes so that during times of unemployment, we take care of those people and provide them with $$. We sacrifice economic growth and Asian countries sacrifice social responsiblity.

SCY wrote:
Al Jon,
Coming from a country with poor economy, I find it pejorative to use the term “Third (3rd) World Country” when referring to Asian countries as if Asian countries are not part of the world economy. We could be poor in terms of economy but we are not “third world".

Your defensiveness is unwarranted. Firstly '3rd world' doesn't just apply to certain Asian economies, it also to many others of non-Asian origins, furthermore, not all Asian economies are 3rd world.

The term '3rd world' is an economic / politic term used as a classification for the various economic political situations of those countries. The classification of 'poor in terms of economy' is a useless term, as it doesn't distinguish between 1st, 2nd 3rd, 4th and 5th world economies.

yujinn wrote:

Al Jon wrote:Thats certainly a typical cultural trait in Asia, from Japan, Taiwan, China Malaysia etc.

Not had enough experience with Indians / Arabs to know if that is common or not. But I agree with your observation. I think accepting responsibility and honesty are more highly regarded in our society, whereas, social harmony is the no.1 factor in Asia.

Does this mean the employers know this? That asians by culture are liars and do not take responsibility and that westerners have the guts to take on anything?

It certainly sounds bad doesn't it....yes its a sweeping generalisation that of course says nothing about any particular individual other than predisposition to certain cultural traits. Well if I was an employer, I'd have to weigh up many of the factors / traits that an employee has. From my experience and those of friends, in Eastern Europe, Asia, India and Africa you are far more likely to be cheated, lied to and robbed.

Is it culture? Economy? Morality? I don't know, I just know it exists. That automatically creates a negative bias for me in doing business over there.

For example, in Taiwan if you are in the manufacturing industry supplying someone, you should just expect that you will never get paid for the last order, it should have already been taken into account in your calculations.

We may call it corrupt and cheating etc, they call it common sense.

If I could employ a European person to do the same job, for the same price. I would.

If you think thats racist, it makes you stupid, because I'd be far more likely to employ an Australian born Chinese, than a European from Albania for example.

Culture and race are two separate ideas, but they often intertwine.

If you want to know where your country is more likely to be, see this:

http://www.transparency.org/policy_rese ... ndices/cpi

yujinn wrote:I guess "culture" and stereotyping races' traits is the basis then?
How would an employer know the applicants real traits by just looking at his resume? How would an employer know if the things written in there, for both asians and westerners, are for real?
Too bad they wouldn't know the REAL attitide of people at work until they start working for them.

Yep. we all stereotype. Its a natural human response. However an employer wouldn't know the real traits of a person by looking at the resume. He/she could however ring the previous employers to find out what their performance was like.

That would be the most reliable way would it not?

It is a matter of preference whom employer should hire. I have to admit that I, too am guilty of stereotyping certain nationalities fit for the job. Over time, i've encountered more spoonfeeding style here than anywhere else. You have to spoonfeed managers as well.

I have to agree with Scot that job seekers from a certain origin tend to over specify their qualifications, but they know nothing. We have once an applicant who hails from her country of origin and waving her masters degree, but we were surprised to know that she wasn't able to send a file thru email. The reason: She doesn't know how to do it!

Before we hire someone, we let them undergo several hands on practical tests. Otherwise, we will end up teaching even the basic things and office protocol. (Newly grad and no working experience can be exempted)

Having said all these, companies in UAE still need to invest more bucks on human resources to attract well-skilled and talented people. Job seekers who are highly qualified will never accept a meager salary package. They will just say "thank you" while laughing for the offer.

ive noticed alot of jobs, even basic sales jobs, ask for a diploma or similar level of education.

but i also find that having a british degree, even only a reasonable one, seems to far outweigh the equivalent or even better level of qualification if coming from a dodgier country!

1. It's a numbers game

It's not a matter of your passport determining your salary. The salary (and other factors) dictate which types of people are willing to apply for, and ultimately accept, the job.

Before applicants even start walking through the door, the job and the salary package exist, determined by the company's philosophy, culture, budget, whatever.

After that it's a numbers game. If I hear of a position similar to mine offering Dhs 10,000 a month I wouldn't even consider applying for it, but there would probably be many Asian applicants. So the position would determine the passport of the eventual employee.

If a similar position were to offer Dhs 30,000 a month, I would consider applying, and so would many Asian and Western-educated people. Then the probablility of the successful candidate being Western would be higher.

If a similar position were advertised at Dhs 60,000 per month, I would definitely apply, and so would people more experienced and better-qualified than me who would consider moving from Europe or the US to take up the position. These are people that I wouldn't be up against for the Dhs 30,000 job and so yes, there is an even greater likelihood that the successful candidate would be Western.

But don't kid yourself that a company first selects the best applicant and then the HR manager thinks, "Hmm, this brilliant candidate is Asian, so let's make it a Dhs 10,000 position". It simply doesn't work like that.

If you don't want to be paid peanuts, whatever the colour of your passport, then don't apply for or accept a job that pays peanuts!

2. All education is not equal

But on another note, when it comes down to comparing education sometimes two degrees with the same name are simply not comparable.

Writing skills, for example, tend to be different between well-educated Asians and Westerners in many cases. I have colleagues with MBAs (almost all of them have MBAs) and PhDs, and I'm completely shocked by their business writing skills sometimes. I'm truly tired of correcting basic grammar in documents by colleagues who are "better-educated" than I am. And I'm talking about basic writing here, which means I seldom get to see truly well-designed, persuasive, cogent and inspiring writing.

Whether or not English is a first language, I don't really care. This is an English and Arabic business environment, and if you really can't write properly in English at the very least then you're at a disadvantage.

It's not about your passport, it's about business.

those who do not think this is the case are in a severe state of denial. this will only hurt you in the long run. western experience is perceived to be the best. notice i said perceive. the west has seen dubai's future as it was in its place not long ago. similarly a passport from pakistan is worth much less.....does that answer your question?

DubaiInformationSite wrote:those who do not think this is the case are in a severe state of denial. this will only hurt you in the long run. western experience is perceived to be the best. notice i said perceive. the west has seen dubai's future as it was in its place not long ago. similarly a passport from pakistan is worth much less.....does that answer your question?

I don't agree about western and eastern stuff.
the nationality does not make the man.

yes i agree that western country citizens get higher pay compare to asians

Basically they all have a American, UK, Australian or equivalent degrees...
with first language as English...
Education/ traing level is higher (more professional)

Luckily, I possess a Canadian passport. My son wants to move to Dubai and luckily he is an American by birth and he also has a Canadian passport. I guess at the end of the day, it's a nice advantage.

yujinn wrote:

Al Jon wrote:Thats certainly a typical cultural trait in Asia, from Japan, Taiwan, China Malaysia etc.

Not had enough experience with Indians / Arabs to know if that is common or not. But I agree with your observation. I think accepting responsibility and honesty are more highly regarded in our society, whereas, social harmony is the no.1 factor in Asia.

Does this mean the employers know this? That asians by culture are liars and do not take responsibility and that westerners have the guts to take on anything?
I guess "culture" and stereotyping races' traits is the basis then?
How would an employer know the applicants real traits by just looking at his resume? How would an employer know if the things written in there, for both asians and westerners, are for real?
Too bad they wouldn't know the REAL attitide of people at work until they start working for them.

It's a macro perspective. Asian countries tend to be extremely corrupt. Getting a degree there is a joke so is getting a license. Apart from a handful of brilliant institutions a bulk of the institutions in these countries are rubbish. Those few brilliant students really don't choose to come here.

That's not the case with Western countries where education standards are higher, they are ethical( atleast they have records to verify, unlike Asian countries)
It's unfair that employers stereotype, but there's a reason for it and the truth is harsh!