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rudeboy wrote:can you tell me where in the Quran does it say that Islam should take over other religions VIOLENTLY? That it must kill all other non-muslims to take over their religion. Or where does it say that a sword or a gun should be pointed to a non-muslims so that they convert to Islam. can you do that?

Can you tell me how I've taken any verse I've posted out of context and then tell me why Pickthall's translation of verse 61.009 is inaccurate?

freefromrats wrote:

rudeboy wrote:can you tell me where in the Quran does it say that Islam should take over other religions VIOLENTLY? That it must kill all other non-muslims to take over their religion. Or where does it say that a sword or a gun should be pointed to a non-muslims so that they convert to Islam. can you do that?

Can you tell me how I've taken any verse I've posted out of context and then tell me why Pickthall's translation of verse 61.009 is inaccurate?

First you answer my questions and then I will answers yours. How about that, we do a bit of comprimising otherwise we will have a war on our hands .

so I will ask you again " can you tell me where in the Quran does it say that Islam should take over other religions VIOLENTLY? That it must kill all other non-muslims to take over their religion. Or where does it say that a sword or a gun should be pointed to a non-muslims so that they convert to Islam. can you do that?".

Well I really didn't want to get involved in this thread but I thought I'd give it my 2 cents anyways

Why are we only looking at the only the Quran here. The bible has more Murders, Wars, rape, Violence, Incestacide, doom and gloom specially in the Old testament that the Quran will ever have.

And we can blame the Crusades which brutally and openly killed thousands of muslims and non muslims alike all in the name of the holy father on the bible.

Lets not talk violence, terror and Islam. Who in recent history and probally in all written history is responsible for the biggest crime, act of terror and violence against mankind. Adolf Hitler a German Christian succesfull carried out his campaign in killing 6,000,000 jews. Think about that number. thats more than twice the population of the entire UAE. Bin Landen cannot even hold a candle to any of Hitlers achievments.

No translation will ever do justice to the Quran and that is why it is still preserved in the orginal language and text it was revealed in and not some long lost ancient language and scrolls. Thats why its also advised to learn the orginal language to really get to the source.


If I was a chirsto-phobe like you are an Islam-o-phobe believe me brother I have much more cannon fodder to sling your way. You have little bit here and there. I have two thousand years worth of material.

Lets not start to point fingers at each other before looking at one owns self. You know people in glass houses n throwing stones and all that jazz.

Why are we only looking at the only the Quran here. The bible has more Murders, Wars, rape, Violence, Incestacide, doom and gloom specially in the Old testament that the Quran will ever have.

Rudeboy made a claim I took violent passages I posted on another thread out of context. I started a new thread to see which passages were taken out of context.

And we can blame the Crusades which brutally and openly killed thousands of muslims and non muslims alike all in the name of the holy father on the bible.

Nope.

Adolf Hitler a German Christian

Sure he was.

Bin Landen cannot even hold a candle to any of Hitlers achievments.

False analogies can be entertaining. Bin Laden doe not have a modern mechanized military and industrialized state at his command that he can use to flatten Muslim and non-Muslim nations.

All al Qaeda has are recruits from across the world (including a number of converts to Islam) who must build their bombs in their own flats, homes and mosques.

No translation will ever do justice to the Quran

Great, why don't we start with verse 61.009 of the Koran and you can explain why the passage translated by Pickthall is wrong.

If I was a chirsto-phobe like you are an Islam-o-phobe believe me brother I have much more cannon fodder to sling your way. You have little bit here and there. I have two thousand years worth of material.

Yes, I agree. Muslims get their burkas in a wad any time someone comes along and points out the misogynist, violent and reactionary passages in the Koran. Maybe everyone should sing kumbaya and never criticize (or debate) the supposedly backwards teachings of Islam, Christianity or Gnosticism? Would that make you feel better?

But then again, I have not criticized Islam in this thread (that I know of). I've simply asked rudeboy to tell me which passages of the Koran have been taken out of context (something rudeboy does not seem to want to do).

rudeboy wrote:

freefromrats wrote:

rudeboy wrote:can you tell me where in the Quran does it say that Islam should take over other religions VIOLENTLY? That it must kill all other non-muslims to take over their religion. Or where does it say that a sword or a gun should be pointed to a non-muslims so that they convert to Islam. can you do that?

Can you tell me how I've taken any verse I've posted out of context and then tell me why Pickthall's translation of verse 61.009 is inaccurate?

First you answer my questions and then I will answers yours. How about that, we do a bit of comprimising otherwise we will have a war on our hands .

so I will ask you again " can you tell me where in the Quran does it say that Islam should take over other religions VIOLENTLY? That it must kill all other non-muslims to take over their religion. Or where does it say that a sword or a gun should be pointed to a non-muslims so that they convert to Islam. can you do that?".

I will do no such thing. First, because your questions are straw men and deliberately pointed (I've never claimed the Koran says what you're asking me to find). Secondly, because this thread is about the verses from the Koran that you have said I had taken out of context or posted partially.

Now, going back on topic...

freefromrats wrote:(I've never claimed the Koran says what you're asking me to find). Secondly, because this thread is about the verses from the Koran that you have said I had taken out of context or posted partially.

So you haven't said what rudeboy asked you to clarify viz:

" can you tell me where in the Quran does it say that Islam should take over other religions VIOLENTLY? That it must kill all other non-muslims to take over their religion. Or where does it say that a sword or a gun should be pointed to a non-muslims so that they convert to Islam. can you do that?".

So at least we seem to be on agreement that the Quran doesn't indeed say these things.

I have to say that I too was under the misunderstanding that you were indeed arguing these things based on some verses you picked out - so I understand why rudeboy asked you to clarify. Where God says he will make a religion prevail, this is a reflection of the perfection of the religion and not the strength of arms of its adherents (but you knew that, of course).

It is clear from what God says in the Quran about how Muslims should treat non-Muslims, freedom of religion etc that what rudeboy was asking you to show isn't to be found in the Quran.

Anyway, glad you've cleared that up.

Cheers,
Shafique

freefromrats wrote:

rudeboy wrote:

freefromrats wrote:

rudeboy wrote:can you tell me where in the Quran does it say that Islam should take over other religions VIOLENTLY? That it must kill all other non-muslims to take over their religion. Or where does it say that a sword or a gun should be pointed to a non-muslims so that they convert to Islam. can you do that?

Can you tell me how I've taken any verse I've posted out of context and then tell me why Pickthall's translation of verse 61.009 is inaccurate?

First you answer my questions and then I will answers yours. How about that, we do a bit of comprimising otherwise we will have a war on our hands .

so I will ask you again " can you tell me where in the Quran does it say that Islam should take over other religions VIOLENTLY? That it must kill all other non-muslims to take over their religion. Or where does it say that a sword or a gun should be pointed to a non-muslims so that they convert to Islam. can you do that?".

I will do no such thing. First, because your questions are straw men and deliberately pointed (I've never claimed the Koran says what you're asking me to find). Secondly, because this thread is about the verses from the Koran that you have said I had taken out of context or posted partially.

Now, going back on topic...

Rats this is what you said on the first page of this post.


"
So, skipping the introduction, I'll go straight to the violent/militant Quranic passages (with chapter and verse numbers) and try to see what surrounding passages I must have missed that supposedly places the violent/militant passages in their proper 'context'.

Verse 61.009 of the Koran, says that Muhammad's religion will one day conquer other religions:"

can you show me the violent/militant quranic passages you were talking about?

61.009 is not a violent quranic passage, all it says is that Islam will one day take over other religions.

here is a example.

Windows 5 came before Windows 6, 7, XP and Vista.

Windows 5 was good for all of us because it was something new on the blocks. At start we luved it but then we got tired of it. So out came Windows 6 and so on till Vista which was the much imporved version.

This is what verse 61.009 is saying. THink windows 5,6,7 & XP as all your religions before Islam and Vista as Islam.

You have taken this verse out of context because you think TAKE over means a violent take over. it is none of that and if you think that Islam is all about war and killing people for no reasons then please go ahead and post these verses from the Quran.

I dont understand what all the noise is about ... my approach ( and this is my personal opinion) has always been based on Surah Kafirun.
http://www.jannah.org/qurantrans/quran109.html
There is no grudge between muslims and any other religion. Our Quran tells us simply ' To me my way and to you yours' We r no one to enforce. The ones who Allah SWT wants to guide HE will guide!!!

This argument is lame. As to me our stance is quite clear so the subject of using violence to conquer other religions does not even arise !!

The concept of Islam is beyond humans and religions and all these worldly subjects. Islam is to submit to the will of Allah and a muslim is one who submits. A true muslim does not care about this world and its petty problems . He has but one objective ie to attain jannah( heaven). People are always manipulated and being naive some believe that if u blow up a bunch of disbelievers it gives u a ticket to heaven. It is these people with agendas that have contorted an other wise beautiful religion.
May Allah bring peace and tranquility in days to come.

All the advocates of Islam being a religon of violence hold very close the 164 verses of Jihad in the Quran.

Contarary to popular belief and much to disdain of these people. Jihad does not mean any holy war waged by the muslims against the non-muslims. The actual meaning of Jihad actually means to strive and to struggle. It can also be an emotional Jihad for example grieving the loss of a loved one.

If I am struggling to provide food and shelter for my family then it would not be wrong to say I'm doing Jihad to provided sustainace for my family. So everytime the word jihad is mentioned does not mean waging war.

Great, why don't we start with verse 61.009 of the Koran and you can explain why the passage translated by Pickthall is wrong.

I don't see anything wrong with it. What I do see wrong is you trying to make it more than it ireally is. And of your insisting that conquer here means by a violent means or method.

Why stick so closely only to pickthall I dunno. There are many other more contemporary translations also out there. Pickthalls is an early 20th century translations. If the chirstians can have revised bible every decade or so arn't we allowed a later translation ?

Many have used diffrent words for the same, manifest, overcome but you insist on conquer because it sounds most warlike and serves your purpose better. No problem.

What would you make of it. If a fine young lady said to you have conqured my heart, mind, soul and body with your truthfullness, your sincerity and your righteousness ? Does it mean you subjected her to some kind of violence ?

Quote:

And we can blame the Crusades which brutally and openly killed thousands of muslims and non muslims alike all in the name of the holy father on the bible.

Nope.

Says you


Ofcourse we can but would be wrong of us. As we all know the dear pope called for this and declared open season on all muslims and the crusaders were considerd Soliders of God. I'm not going to go into detail as I'm sure you already know or can look it up yourself

Yes if you do look into it. the crusades were vain political events in the guise of religon which many innocents paid the price for.

rudeboy wrote:This is what verse 61.009 is saying. THink windows 5,6,7 & XP as all your religions before Islam and Vista as Islam.

Sorry Ruddy, you can compare NT with Windows NT, but Q with OS/2 only, not Vista.

Red Chief wrote:

rudeboy wrote:I requested RATS to read the Quran so that he can have his own views of Islam and the Quran. If he does that thats great. If he doesnt do that, the world wont come to an end.

Guiding someone to the correct path is not a sin

Excuse me, Sir. Each time I went past a bookshelf with Quran in Carefour I read following warning (sorry I didn't learn it by heart):

"Dear non-Muslim exparts, we humbly ask you not to touch Holy Quran by your dirty paws!"

So even if I wanted to read the book I could not do that. What a pity!

I totally disagree with this, and no where in Islam does it say that. And I've actually thought of getting in touch with C4 management about it.

If your really serious RC I would be more than happy to gift you a copy.

translation again is an interpretation by a person and differs hence from person to person .... The Quran in its pure and unadulterated form is in Arabic and the only thing one hopes to achieve is to TRY and explain it as best as possible in english.... People have spent their whole lives trying to figure out what the Quran is about as we as muslims are encouraged to READ and contemplate about the true meaning. Hence pickthall or any other sort of translation cannot be a point of reference for an argument as it is only the perspective of the person who wrote it.
The true words of message of Allah lies in the Arabic form and needs to be studied to a great degree of depth ...

olivertwisted wrote:translation again is an interpretation by a person and differs hence from person to person .... The Quran in its pure and unadulterated form is in Arabic and the only thing one hopes to achieve is to TRY and explain it as best as possible in english.... People have spent their whole lives trying to figure out what the Quran is about as we as muslims are encouraged to READ and contemplate about the true meaning. Hence pickthall or any other sort of translation cannot be a point of reference for an argument as it is only the perspective of the person who wrote it.
The true words of message of Allah lies in the Arabic form and needs to be studied to a great degree of depth ...

Absolutely correct but we already tried this angle with rats, but ofcourse it didn't work. Neither will of any of my arguments or anyone elses. As he has already set his mind to what he beileves and to what the quran is all about or atleast what he wished it to be.

Thanks, dude, but it's a little bit late for me. 15 years ago I tried to learn Greek to read NT with limited success. So I am totally unsure about Arabic.

Red Chief wrote:Thanks, dude, but it's a little bit late for me. 15 years ago I tried to learn Greek to read NT with limited success. So I am totally unsure about Arabic.

you could start off with reading the translation

rudeboy wrote:

Red Chief wrote:Thanks, dude, but it's a little bit late for me. 15 years ago I tried to learn Greek to read NT with limited success. So I am totally unsure about Arabic.

you could start off with reading the translation

He-he and then I would be accused of wrong translation by some Muslim propagandist. No, thanks.

Red Chief wrote:

rudeboy wrote:

Red Chief wrote:Thanks, dude, but it's a little bit late for me. 15 years ago I tried to learn Greek to read NT with limited success. So I am totally unsure about Arabic.

you could start off with reading the translation

He-he and then I would be accused of wrong translation by some Muslim propagandist. No, thanks.

Classic catch-22 situation

desertdudeshj wrote:I don't see anything wrong with it.

Good. I'm glad we agree that Pickthall's translation is accurate.

And of your insisting that conquer here means by a violent means or method.

That would be the plain meaning of the word conquer.

As we all know the dear pope called for this and declared open season on all muslims and the crusaders were considerd Soliders of God.

I'm not aware of any letter written by the hand of the pope (I'm assuming you mean Pope Urban II) where he 'declared open season' on all Muslims.

I'm more than happy for you to find any letter written by Pope Urban where he says something along those lines.

As for your objection of crusaders being considered soldiers of God, I have to say...you can't be serious here?

I mean, it's not like Islam believes that their soldiers are soldiers of God and that they become martyrs for killing and dying when they fight for Allah cause (spreading Islamic law by force), right?

Jihad does not mean any holy war waged by the muslims against the non-muslims.

Great, why don't you tell me what the noun form of Jihad is and what context the noun form of jihad is used in the Koran?

After that, you can explain to me every verse in the Koran that uses the word jihad and what is the ratio of times jihad is used in a militant context and how many times jihad is used in a different type of context.

That would be an interesting post and would definitely require its own thread.

I'm not going to go into detail

No surprise there.

the early Muslim jihads were vain political events in the guise of religon which many innocents paid the price for.

I fixed it for you.

shafique wrote:Where God says he will make a religion prevail,

The translation says that Muslims will conquer all other religions.

this is a reflection of the perfection of the religion

Unfortunately, the verse does not say that.

and not the strength of arms of its adherents (but you knew that, of course).

When I hear that one nation conquered another nation, I think they defeated them through military force. When I hear hoofbeats, I think horses, not zebras

freefromrats wrote:When I hear that one nation conquered another nation, I think they defeated them through military force. When I hear hoofbeats, I think horses, not zebras

When you keep your eyes closed (when everyone says take a peek) and insist the elephant is like a snake, who is to blame - those who see the whole picture or you who insist you are right?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:

freefromrats wrote:When I hear that one nation conquered another nation, I think they defeated them through military force. When I hear hoofbeats, I think horses, not zebras

When you keep your eyes closed (when everyone says take a peek) and insist the elephant is like a snake, who is to blame - those who see the whole picture or you who insist you are right?

Cheers,
Shafique

Good question. Why don't you count how many verses are in the Koran that say to fight only in self defense and compare that total with passages that say to fight against unbelievers?

Unfortunately, I don't think the guy who took the peak believes that conquering all other religions really means to do so in a peaceful manner.

But hey, I'm more than happy to get to the other violent passages in the Koran as well.

freefromrats wrote:[
Good question. Why don't you count how many verses are in the Koran that say to fight only in self defense and compare that total with passages that say to fight against unbelievers?

Done that, bought the t-shirt.

Your point is what exactly? Glad you are aware that the Quran does have other verses about warfare, treatment of nonMuslims etc etc.

Cheers,
Shafique

I feel like banging my head against the wall. just dont understand some ppl, you try your best to explain it to them but they dont want to understand and stick to their guns.

Oh don't worry rudy, I've dealt with many such a troll on many religious forums elsewhere. They come into the room armed with the limited knowledge they have gained (usually from Fox and CNN ). And then try to preach to us how we have lead our lives like idiots, and whatever we standfor and beileve in is false and in vain. Or guide us to the proper path.

Ratty I would be glad to explain every question you have regarding this subject. But your not here to gain knowledge or better understanding. Your here to shove your point of view down our throats.

Ratty my dear insteaf of dilly dallying around the bush and trying to give this thread the guise of an intelectual argument. Just go ahead and say openly what you have on your mind. Get it our in the open, maybe make you feel you feel better. We all know where this converstation is leading and what its end going to be.

Whats the worse than can happen the thread would be moved to fight club at the most.

I leave with the prayer that no matter how twisted your intention is of reading the Quran that the Almighty opens up your heart and mind and that you receive its true message. Its not unheard of and miracles do happen.

FYI : http://www.themodernreligion.com/jihad/ ... ained.html

Although I am sure you and I refuse to believe you are so naive that you havent read similar litrature and explinations before. Here is something on the subject, I know you will knit pick it and find a million things wrong with it. Just like your similar quest with the Quran.

shafique wrote:

freefromrats wrote:[
Good question. Why don't you count how many verses are in the Koran that say to fight only in self defense and compare that total with passages that say to fight against unbelievers?

Done that, bought the t-shirt.

Your point is what exactly? Glad you are aware that the Quran does have other verses about warfare, treatment of nonMuslims etc etc.

Cheers,
Shafique

I have no problem admitting that the Koran contains contradictory passages.

I agree that Muslims should ignore the violent teachings of Islam and the Koran and focus on the passages that do not say to wage war against unbelievers.

rudeboy wrote:I feel like banging my head against the wall. just dont understand some ppl, you try your best to explain it to them but they dont want to understand and stick to their guns.

Anyways, moving onto the next verse, since we've come to the conclusion that the 'conquer all religions' is a correct translation of the Koran, the Koran says to wage perpetual jihad warfare against unbelievers (Jews and Christians) until they live under Muslim occupation:

Koran 9:29 says:

Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

http://www.quranexplorer.com/Quran/Default.aspx

One verse of the Bible says women should not speak in Church. Imagine how silly I would be if I argued that this is what Christianity teaches and ignored the fact there are contradictory verses in the Bible that talk about women being Deacons etc.

Rats is sure his interpretation of what the Quran teaches is correct, and he's entitled to that opinion. We've drawn the analogy already that this is like the blind man insisting an elephant resembles a snake.

I guess the analogy has whooshed over the head of rats - fair enough, I guess it is hard to give up in-grained orientalist views of Islam when presented with cogent arguments.

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman wrote:

rudeboy wrote:If Islam was all about Jihad then dont you think christians minorities would have been wiped out from countries such as lebanon, jordan, syria, kuwait, Iraq etc?

Really? Christian minorities are diminishing fast in Arab/Muslim countries. Mohammed started this ethnic cleansing with making the Arabian Peninsula Judenrein (or did Mohammed also misinterpret the Quran?). After 1948 Jews were practically ethnically cleansed from all Arab countries. Now it seems in a lot Arab countries its the Christians turn. But still, its all the evul Djoos fault, right? The world would be a better place if Hitler finished his job, right Rudeboy???

1- Christians are diminishing in Europe as well. Noone is ethnically cleansing them. They are voluntarily becoming atheist.

2- "After 1948 Jews were practically ethnically cleansed from all Arab countries"

Who told you this nonsense? Those Jews emigrated when war broke out. I can invent history too you know!

freefromrats wrote:

shafique wrote:Where God says he will make a religion prevail,

The translation says that Muslims will conquer all other religions.

this is a reflection of the perfection of the religion

Unfortunately, the verse does not say that.

and not the strength of arms of its adherents (but you knew that, of course).

When I hear that one nation conquered another nation, I think they defeated them through military force. When I hear hoofbeats, I think horses, not zebras

First of all the Quran is not in English it is in Arabic so noone cares what you "think" conquer means. Even if we stick to the English meaning conquer in merriam webster's also means " to overcome by mental/moral power eg: She conquered her fear".

You need to bear something in mind when you are reading ANYTHING old. This applies if it is the Old Testament or the Quran or Illiad- CONTEXT. You are trying to understand literature using contemporary vocabulary. Translating ANY work is only to give brief understanding to those to whom said work would otherwise be unaccessible. You cannot claim to understand and debate a text outside its original vocabulary. Add to that, Arabic is just about the most complex language in the world (grammatically, not phonetically or symbolically). Arabic has also changed drastically in the past 1400 years. I am not just comparing the slang we talk to with classical Arabic. Even written and read contemporary classical Arabic are totally different from the language of Quraysh in which the Quran was written. This why even Arabs sometimes have trouble determining the meanings of words. The language has quite simply changed and no it is not similar to the evolution of English which is not quite so drastic. After all those layers of complexity you get the random moron who tries to debate something he does not understand and has not studied (you know who you are).

Anyway, even if you neglect all the above and keep your "conquered", even that is a word you don't seem to know the full meaning of.