Basic Human Dignity ?

Topic locked
  • Reply
Jul 21, 2009
Speedhump wrote:It's a shame that the OP's point has been buried under this mess of acrimony! :D

UaeKid, you should read again and note that it was not even close to being a UAE bashing post, it puts the actions of the hospital in a good humanitarian light (and they do have to operate within the laws of the country), but does question the statements of the police.

The OP highlighted the fact the the police said the woman should have been turned away from the hospital without care. If the quote is true, this demand surely was contrary to the most basic of human rights and no hospital should comply. Forget the law for just a second. Whatever crime someone has committed (and having a child outside wedlock IS a crime in the UAE, whatever one's views on it) isn't that person entitled to receive basic life saving care? As a forward looking nation I can't believe that the rulers of the UAE would stand behind this statement of the police?

Even murderers/drunk drivers are admitted to hospital for care, aren't they?


True, and as far as I'm aware the law doesn't state that the women be turned away but they have an obligation to report them to the police.

bushra21
Dubai Forums Zealot
User avatar
Posts: 4879
Location: dar el 7ay

  • Reply
Jul 21, 2009
Speedhump wrote:It's a shame that the OP's point has been buried under this mess of acrimony! :D


I think OP stands for Other Post as opposed to Other Person.

And I do believe there's a misconception here. I think the women and her child are in a supervised health care facility. It's more like a house arrest. I guess she'll stay put till her trial is complete....
Can anyone confirm?
Misery Called Life
Dubai Forums Zealot
User avatar
Posts: 3033

  • Reply
Jul 21, 2009
bushra21 wrote:True, and as far as I'm aware the law doesn't state that the women be turned away but they have an obligation to report them to the police.


There is slightly different information in the article though.

On the other hand UAEkid describes Central Sharjah Jail like a "sanatirium for mother and child". I'm in doubt. I don't know what kind of care she should wait for in this difficalt situation but who cares?
Red Chief
Dubai forums GURU
User avatar
Posts: 2256

  • Reply
Jul 21, 2009
Misery Called Life wrote:
Speedhump wrote:It's a shame that the OP's point has been buried under this mess of acrimony! :D


I think OP stands for Other Post as opposed to Other Person.


Actually OP means Original Post :)
redtilldead
Dubai Forums Talker
User avatar
Posts: 196
Location: Dubai

  • Reply
Jul 21, 2009
Yes, original poster :)

If they are in some kind of detention shelter as MCL says then it's more humane. Still under arrest obviously. Maybe she could have gone there and had her baby safely if there are faciltiies. Maybe that's what the police were actually saying. Nothing is clear. I still think it would be incredibly harsh of the police to say she should have been refused any care at all for childbirth. I find it hard it believe that was how it really was, the police here are honestly not made of stone!
Speedhump
Dubai Forums Zealot
User avatar
Posts: 4262

  • Reply
Jul 22, 2009
So many meaningless words, so many bubbles... So many foreheads broken when trying to crash the wall... So many last words... So many "boxed" existences... And somewhere there is a woman - lonely, scared, in pain, separated from her beloved child... And she knows she hasn't seen the worst yet.
Leda
Dubai Forums Talker
Posts: 175
Location: Dubai

  • Reply
Jul 22, 2009
Leda wrote:So many meaningless words, so many bubbles... So many foreheads broken when trying to crash the wall... So many last words... So many "boxed" existences... And somewhere there is a woman - lonely, scared, in pain, separated from her beloved child... And she knows she hasn't seen the worst yet.


Ok Ms Over-dramatic, have you even bothered to read anything from this thread? The woman isn't separated from her child and as far as you saying 'she hasn't seen the worst yet', unless you can predict the future with 100% certainty (which I am positive you cannot) your statements are useless and have no grounds...
bushra21
Dubai Forums Zealot
User avatar
Posts: 4879
Location: dar el 7ay

  • Reply
Jul 22, 2009
Leda wrote:So many meaningless words, so many bubbles... So many foreheads broken when trying to crash the wall... So many last words... So many "boxed" existences... And somewhere there is a woman - lonely, scared, in pain, separated from her beloved child... And she knows she hasn't seen the worst yet.


Poetic and touching. Leda- the Sharia law states that the mother is not to be punished in any way until the baby is waned. She shouldn't even be jailed.
Metaphor79
Dubai Expat Helper
User avatar
Posts: 414
Location: Dubai

  • Reply
Jul 22, 2009
I didn't really expect it to make your boxed minds work. I just hoped you were smart enough not to respond this one and remain seemingly understanding and... hmm... humane... Still it's nice to learn there is not only my lovely boyfriend who sits here and waits for me to come back from work. Cheers teens!
P.s.: even had a thought that my stomack cramps made me too harsh in judgement this morning. changed my mind)))
Leda
Dubai Forums Talker
Posts: 175
Location: Dubai

  • Reply
Jul 22, 2009
Leda wrote:I didn't really expect it to make your boxed minds work. I just hoped you were smart enough not to respond this one and remain seemingly understanding and... hmm... humane... Still it's nice to learn there is not only my lovely boyfriend who sits here and waits for me to come back from work. Cheers teens!
P.s.: even had a thought that my stomack cramps made me too harsh in judgement this morning. changed my mind)))


As of yet I fail to see how any of my statements could be misconstrued as inhumane or harsh. It seems that you are the one who is having difficulty wrapping your head around what I said.

I don't often say this, but here's the thing - if you don't like the laws of this country, or the people for that matter, go ahead and leave. Trust me, you won't be missed and can be easily replaced regardless of what position you hold and however 'special' you think you may be.

I'm done responding to you, regardless of what you may post. I've said my piece and argued my side to the best of my ability while at the same time not allowing myself to be affected by your continued insults. However, I can see that you are the type of person who unless agreed with completely is unable to hold a civilized conversation and resorts to name calling and categorizing people as narrow minded.

Cheers, and good luck with your 'cramps'...
bushra21
Dubai Forums Zealot
User avatar
Posts: 4879
Location: dar el 7ay

  • Reply
Jul 22, 2009
Leda wrote:I didn't really expect it to make your boxed minds work. I just hoped you were smart enough not to respond this one and remain seemingly understanding and... hmm... humane... Still it's nice to learn there is not only my lovely boyfriend who sits here and waits for me to come back from work. Cheers teens!
P.s.: even had a thought that my stomack cramps made me too harsh in judgement this morning. changed my mind)))


Two very silly posts from you here! :shock:

I suggest that pre-menstrual forum posting is to be avoided unless it's to dicuss the weather. :D
Speedhump
Dubai Forums Zealot
User avatar
Posts: 4262

  • Reply
Jul 22, 2009
Metaphor79 wrote:
Leda wrote:So many meaningless words, so many bubbles... So many foreheads broken when trying to crash the wall... So many last words... So many "boxed" existences... And somewhere there is a woman - lonely, scared, in pain, separated from her beloved child... And she knows she hasn't seen the worst yet.


Poetic and touching. Leda- the Sharia law states that the mother is not to be punished in any way until the baby is waned. She shouldn't even be jailed.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... ltery.html

A Saudi judge has ordered a woman should be jailed for a year and receive 100 lashes after she was gang-raped, it was claimed last night.

The 23-year-old woman, who became pregnant after her ordeal, was reportedly assaulted after accepting a lift from a man.

He took her to a house to the east of the city of Jeddah where she was attacked by him and four of his friends throughout the night.

She later discovered she was pregnant and made a desperate attempt to get an abortion at the King Fahd Hospital for Armed Forces.

According to the Saudi Gazette, she eventually 'confessed' to having 'forced intercourse' with her attackers and was brought before a judge at the District Court in Jeddah.

He ruled she had committed adultery - despite not even being married - and handed down a year's prison sentence, which she will serve in a prison just outside the city.

She is still pregnant and will be flogged once she has had the child.
Speedhump
Dubai Forums Zealot
User avatar
Posts: 4262

  • Reply
Jul 22, 2009
Speedhump wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... ltery.html

A Saudi judge has ordered a woman should be jailed for a year and receive 100 lashes after she was gang-raped, it was claimed last night.

The 23-year-old woman, who became pregnant after her ordeal, was reportedly assaulted after accepting a lift from a man.

He took her to a house to the east of the city of Jeddah where she was attacked by him and four of his friends throughout the night.

She later discovered she was pregnant and made a desperate attempt to get an abortion at the King Fahd Hospital for Armed Forces.

According to the Saudi Gazette, she eventually 'confessed' to having 'forced intercourse' with her attackers and was brought before a judge at the District Court in Jeddah.

He ruled she had committed adultery - despite not even being married - and handed down a year's prison sentence, which she will serve in a prison just outside the city.

She is still pregnant and will be flogged once she has had the child.


I remember reading about that and feeling utterly disgusted afterwards. For someone who should be upholding the laws of the country - which are supposed to be Islamic laws has shown complete disregard for what they are supposed to be. Islamically, there is no punishment against a woman who is raped and especially not if she becomes pregnant but the rapist himself is to be punished.


If it is confirmed that a man engaged in sexual intercourse with a woman by threatening to kill her or by using some kind of drug or anesthetic, then his crime will be more serious than that of consentual sex.

The punishment thereto is death by execution. He will not be entitled to any pardon or reprieve whatsoever, regardless of whether he was single or married.

The one who forces sex upon someone else under threat of death is an evil and vile member of the society and should be purged. He is involved in an act of open violence and transgression against others and the spread of mischief throughout the land. His is the fate of bandits and highway robbers:

Allah says: “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution or crucifixion or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.” [Sûrah al-Mâ’idah: 33]

A woman will not be punished if there is any reason to believe that she was forced into the act. The least evidence in this regard will be sufficient to save the woman from punishment. Our Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Allah has pardoned my people for the acts they do by mistake, due to forgetfulness, and what they are coerced into doing” [Related by Ibn Mâjah and authenticated by al-Nawawî, Ibn Hajr, and al-Albânî].

Also, it was related by Ibn Abî Shaybah through Târiq b. Shahâb that a woman accused of adultery was taken to Caliph `Umar. The woman pleaded that she was asleep and woke up to find the man over her. `Umar released the woman. [The narration was approved by al-Albâni]. Ibn Qudâmah stated in his book al-Mughnî: “There is no punishment on the woman who was coerced into adultery.”

If a woman confesses that her baby was born from an illegal relationship or in case four witnesses of impeccable character testify that she had committed adultery – meaning that they were eye-witnesses to the sexual penetration – then she will be subject to conviction in the Islamic courts. Likewise, if a man confesses to adultery or four witnesses of impeccable character testify that he had committed adultery then he will be subject to the legal punishment. She is no different than a man in this regard.

In case there are no witnesses and no confession then the woman will not receive punishment just because of pregnancy. Women can fall pregnant without committing illegal sexual intercourse. A woman could be raped or coerced. In this case, she is a victim and not the perpetrator of a crime.

Therefore, she cannot be punished or even accused of misconduct merely on the strength of her falling pregnant. This opinion is held by many people of knowledge. Ibn Qudâmah said in his book al-Mughnî:
If a woman becomes pregnant without having a husband or a master, she may not be punished and, in stead, she should be asked about it, if she claimed that she was coerced into it or that she committed adultery under dubious circumstances, or if she simply does not confess adultery then she will not be punished. This is the saying of Abu Hanîfah and al-Shâfi`î ,because she may be pregnant as a result of a forceful intercourse or dubious circumstances. Punishment will be abandoned in case suspicion exists. It is well known that a woman could become pregnant without engaging in true intercourse. The woman may become pregnant if sperm is manually inserted into her vagina. This would explain how a virgin becomes pregnant.
This is clearly the correct and most just ruling on the matter.
bushra21
Dubai Forums Zealot
User avatar
Posts: 4879
Location: dar el 7ay

  • Reply
Jul 22, 2009
Speedhump wrote:Two very silly posts from you here! :shock:

I suggest that pre-menstrual forum posting is to be avoided unless it's to dicuss the weather. :D


Why don't you keep on topic instead of making it personal and dirty, leutenant?

I don't see any stupidity in that simpathy to the mother with baby in jail (not resort).
Red Chief
Dubai forums GURU
User avatar
Posts: 2256

  • Reply
Jul 22, 2009
@Speedhump- I clearly said Sharia Law as stated in Quran and Sunna.
What happens in KSA is a very weird interpretation of Sharia law. I'm Muslim and I can say KSA gives Islam a bad name.

Go back in history and you'll find the story of a unmarried pregnant woman who came to prophet Mohammad. She confessed and wanted to clear her sin. He asked her to come back once she's delivered the baby. She came back with her illegitimate child. Again he asked her to come back once the baby is weaned. Now this is Sharia law.
Metaphor79
Dubai Expat Helper
User avatar
Posts: 414
Location: Dubai

  • Reply
Jul 22, 2009
Red Chief wrote:
Speedhump wrote:Two very silly posts from you here! :shock:

I suggest that pre-menstrual forum posting is to be avoided unless it's to dicuss the weather. :D


Why don't you keep on topic instead of making it personal and dirty, leutenant?

I don't see any stupidity in that simpathy to the mother with baby in jail (not resort).


She mentioned her stomach cramps, did you miss the reference...you did didn't you.........also there's nothing dirty about menstruation commissar, you are showing your repugnance of women and their 'stuff' again I think! :P

She was saying that all posters here 'don't understand' and criticising them, whereas all that was being discussed was the legal issues. She had no need to make such remarks. I hope you follow.

Interesting that you attacked me and not bushra who was quite forthright in her condemnation of the posts. I on the other hand make a joke of it. Hmmm...... :roll:
Speedhump
Dubai Forums Zealot
User avatar
Posts: 4262

  • Reply
Jul 22, 2009
Metaphor79 wrote:@Speedhump- I clearly said Sharia Law as stated in Quran and Sunna.
What happens in KSA is a very weird interpretation of Sharia law. I'm Muslim and I can say KSA gives Islam a bad name.

Go back in history and you'll find the story of a unmarried pregnant woman who came to prophet Mohammad. She confessed and wanted to clear her sin. He asked her to come back once she's delivered the baby. She came back with her illegitimate child. Again he asked her to come back once the baby is weaned. Now this is Sharia law.


Hi.

My quote said 'She is still pregnant and will be flogged once she has had the child.' So it upholds what you mentioned, although the case itself is quite horrific. Sharia law is mangled in this way in many countries, not just KSA. Nigeria, Pakistan, Afghanistan (previously), etc., have many cases of women being 'legally' stoned to death for adultery or 'honour' killed which has been pardoned by courts (even if the women have only having been subected to rape). These death sentences are, as you say, postponed until after any baby is weaned in the cases I have read online.

A religion that is abused so widely can't be held up as a world model.

I don't want to attack your beliefs, please don't take it personally. Many millions practice Islam peacefully and I'm sure it gves them comfort in a crazy world.

It's strange that KSA, the 'home' of the religion is so wayward in it's practises?
Speedhump
Dubai Forums Zealot
User avatar
Posts: 4262

  • Reply
Jul 22, 2009
Speedhump wrote:It's strange that KSA, the 'home' of the religion is so wayward in it's practises?


Thats because of cultural reasons. And also, KSA is home to the 2 holy cities, but thats about it. You are more likely to witness proper Islamic behavior from an American Muslim than from a Saudi. Religion has little to do with location, its about the individual.
BlackburnRovers
Dubai Expat Helper
Posts: 507

  • Reply
Jul 22, 2009
I see that the controversy rages on...however, whose interpretation of islam is the correct one? The Saudis, the UAE, or Pakistani? or the dozen or so other countries that call themselves islamic around planet earth...
zonker
BANNED
User avatar
Posts: 712
Location: The Solar System

  • Reply
Jul 22, 2009
Speedhump wrote:
Metaphor79 wrote:@Speedhump- I clearly said Sharia Law as stated in Quran and Sunna.
What happens in KSA is a very weird interpretation of Sharia law. I'm Muslim and I can say KSA gives Islam a bad name.

Go back in history and you'll find the story of a unmarried pregnant woman who came to prophet Mohammad. She confessed and wanted to clear her sin. He asked her to come back once she's delivered the baby. She came back with her illegitimate child. Again he asked her to come back once the baby is weaned. Now this is Sharia law.


Hi.

My quote said 'She is still pregnant and will be flogged once she has had the child.' So it upholds what you mentioned, although the case itself is quite horrific. Sharia law is mangled in this way in many countries, not just KSA. Nigeria, Pakistan, Afghanistan (previously), etc., have many cases of women being 'legally' stoned to death for adultery or 'honour' killed which has been pardoned by courts (even if the women have only having been subected to rape). These death sentences are, as you say, postponed until after any baby is weaned in the cases I have read online.

A religion that is abused so widely can't be held up as a world model.

I don't want to attack your beliefs, please don't take it personally. Many millions practice Islam peacefully and I'm sure it gves them comfort in a crazy world.

It's strange that KSA, the 'home' of the religion is so wayward in it's practises?


The mistakes of 'Muslim' people shouldn't be attributed to Islam.

I completely disagree with most of what is going in the name of Islam in KSA as well as any other countries or groups that take the religion to extremes. In my eyes, they are nothing more than a sad excuse for a human and will be punished for their egregious sins not only in this life time but also in the hereafter.
bushra21
Dubai Forums Zealot
User avatar
Posts: 4879
Location: dar el 7ay

  • Reply
Jul 22, 2009
zonker wrote:I see that the controversy rages on...however, whose interpretation of islam is the correct one? The Saudis, the UAE, or Pakistani? or the dozen or so other countries that call themselves islamic around planet earth...


Good point zonker, but I think you'd be really hard pressed to find any country that truly practices the way the religion is intended to be done. Unfortuanetly, it's human nature to be motivated, consumed, and/or fall victim to pride and greed. Those in power and in positions of justice in the so-called Islamic states are no exception, sure there are a few who go against that, but as with most things the majority wins :roll:
bushra21
Dubai Forums Zealot
User avatar
Posts: 4879
Location: dar el 7ay

  • Reply
Jul 22, 2009
Bushra, my point was also to find out: who decides how religion is intended to be practised?
zonker
BANNED
User avatar
Posts: 712
Location: The Solar System

  • Reply
Jul 22, 2009
zonker wrote:Bushra, my point was also to find out: who decides how religion is intended to be practised?


I noticed that but didn't know what to say without shooting myself in the foot, so I chose not to say anything hoping you wouldn't notice :oops:

I'm tempted to say that it is how you as the believer would comprehend it, but a counter argument to that could be the actions of the taliban, osama, rulings in countries such as ksa, pakistan, iran and so on.

I guess, since there are so many interpretations of how religion is to be practiced, the best solution would be to follow the one whose methods and understanding of the religion most closely the general code of morals/ethics that is expected of everyone and that in the same time you feel most comfortable with. Then what would come into play is the individual whose interpretations you are accepting and his level knowledge and education on the religion, his background and what not.

Does that make sense?
bushra21
Dubai Forums Zealot
User avatar
Posts: 4879
Location: dar el 7ay

  • Reply
Jul 22, 2009
Speedhump wrote: I don't want to attack your beliefs, please don't take it personally. Many millions practice Islam peacefully and I'm sure it gves them comfort in a crazy world.


I didn't criticize Islam, I'm just not happy with the way it's interpreted.

And yes, Islam does give peace to millions, so do other religions.

Faith and believes are all in the heart.
Metaphor79
Dubai Expat Helper
User avatar
Posts: 414
Location: Dubai

  • Reply
Jul 22, 2009
so what I am trying to decipher is this: should religion be a personal thing then? or rather a group of people trying to impose it upon us, telling us how life is to be lived....just trying to clear up some confusion in my mind considering that i am in the company of such intelligent people!
zonker
BANNED
User avatar
Posts: 712
Location: The Solar System

  • Reply
Jul 22, 2009
Speedhump wrote:She mentioned her stomach cramps, did you miss the reference...you did didn't you.........also there's nothing dirty about menstruation commissar, you are showing your repugnance of women and their 'stuff' again I think! :P


Hm... Speedhump M.D. Can you define pregnancy distantly as well? If it's true I'm not surprized that you roll in money. :P

I don't envy, but respect your showy talents. :wink:
Red Chief
Dubai forums GURU
User avatar
Posts: 2256

  • Reply
Jul 22, 2009
zonker wrote:so what I am trying to decipher is this: should religion be a personal thing then? or rather a group of people trying to impose it upon us, telling us how life is to be lived....just trying to clear up some confusion in my mind considering that i am in the company of such intelligent people!


:?

ok...

I don't think anyone has the right to force their own beliefs unto others, and at the same time people should not be so quick to accept the sayings of others especially when it comes to religion without a clear understanding of what is being said and for what reason. So yeah, religion should be a personal thing but at the same time there should be individuals who are practiced and educated in the religion that are available to others who seek guidance and explanations. The presence of those individuals though shouldn't mean an obligatory acceptance and following of their beliefs.
bushra21
Dubai Forums Zealot
User avatar
Posts: 4879
Location: dar el 7ay

  • Reply
Jul 22, 2009
BlackburnRovers wrote:
Speedhump wrote:It's strange that KSA, the 'home' of the religion is so wayward in it's practises?


Thats because of cultural reasons. And also, KSA is home to the 2 holy cities, but thats about it. You are more likely to witness proper Islamic behavior from an American Muslim than from a Saudi. Religion has little to do with location, its about the individual.


Good point, except that when a religion is also used as a legal code it's about more than the individual.
Speedhump
Dubai Forums Zealot
User avatar
Posts: 4262

  • Reply
Jul 22, 2009
okay..I got that bushra....good answer. Now I can sleep well, since its my bedtime here....i have to hit the sack
zonker
BANNED
User avatar
Posts: 712
Location: The Solar System

  • Reply
Jul 22, 2009
Red Chief wrote:
Speedhump wrote:She mentioned her stomach cramps, did you miss the reference...you did didn't you.........also there's nothing dirty about menstruation commissar, you are showing your repugnance of women and their 'stuff' again I think! :P


Hm... Speedhump M.D. Can you define pregnancy distantly as well? If it's true I'm not surprized that you roll in money. :P

I don't envy, but respect your showy talents. :wink:


:D

Chief, I have magic hands, women comment on it, afterwards.... :P

When she mentioned stomach cramps I believe she meant that the dreaded time of the month is here. Many many women can be very irrational/emotional at that time (it's pure human chemistry, you know it too :)).....I was trying to make it into a small joke so she didn't try to hunt me down with a breadknife during this week....
Speedhump
Dubai Forums Zealot
User avatar
Posts: 4262

posting in Dubai General ChatForum Rules

Return to Dubai General Chat


  • Related topics
    Replies
    Last post
cron