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Nucleus wrote:
As for too many religions that is property of freewill and free choice, people will have differences and some choices will be bad and some choices will be good, and they will have their consequences, there is no such thing as free meal

What about my example, about a person living in a small village that has had no contact whatsoever with Islam (for example). There is no choice. Will they still be judged for not following the laws of Islam?

Captain Australia wrote:

Nucleus wrote:
As for too many religions that is property of freewill and free choice, people will have differences and some choices will be bad and some choices will be good, and they will have their consequences, there is no such thing as free meal

What about my example, about a person living in a small village that has had no contact whatsoever with Islam (for example). There is no choice. Will they still be judged for not following the laws of Islam?

According to Islamic scholars nope, but imo they will be judged on a different criteria.

What will they be judge on IYO?

Skyper wrote:A lot of people do believe in God. Then there are those who does not believe in God. They call themselves atheists. Those who believe, can you prove that God really exists?
For atheist, can you prove that God does not exists?

Nothing to prove because it is non existent.

i do believe in god. its not because I was born in a muslim house or my parents were muslims, its because of the quran. after reading the quran and understanding it, so many things opened my eyes.

many ppl think that the quran is written by some guy. this is wrong. quran contains all the information which humans need to know. even about the existence of god.

not that many ppl know this but in the Quran the whole human anatomy is described. ask yourself how can a book written hundreds of years ago contains information about human anatomy, when it has taken the scientists recently to find out more about the human anatomy? If a human wrote the quran how could a human being know all this information 100s of years ago?

the answer is that no human knew about human anatomy 100s of years ago. only a greater power would have this knowledge and information. or maybe the creator of us human beings.

by the way guys. la ilaha means no god. so those who are athiest, I want to congratulate you all.

rudeboy wrote:by the way guys. la ilaha means no god. so those who are athiest, I want to congratulate you all.

Thanks for the appreciation

In what context must this be placed? I don't understand what you try to say.

RobbyG wrote:

rudeboy wrote:by the way guys. la ilaha means no god. so those who are athiest, I want to congratulate you all.

Thanks for the appreciation

In what context must this be placed? I don't understand what you try to say.

do some research cos i dont want to spoil the fun

rudeboy wrote:

RobbyG wrote:

rudeboy wrote:by the way guys. la ilaha means no god. so those who are athiest, I want to congratulate you all.

Thanks for the appreciation

In what context must this be placed? I don't understand what you try to say.

do some research cos i dont want to spoil the fun

Ahh you little bugger. Show some balls will you.

If you make a statement, you must defend it also. Bring it on son. Did Allah become Atheist all of a sudden?

There you go

La ila ha illa Allah. There is no god but Allah. Half of what you could say is the creed of Islam rest being and muhammad is his messenger.

Since you don't believe in any "god" most of you already agree to part of it.

Chocoholic wrote:What a load of boohockey!

Says the person who believes in ghost, ghouls and goblins !

desertdudeshj wrote:La ila ha illa Allah. There is no god but Allah. Half of what you could say is the creed of Islam rest being and muhammad is his messenger.

Since you don't believe in any "god" most of you already agree to part of it.

party pooper

I am so intrigued of what is in Quran. I am a Roman Catholic yet dont put walls to anybody cause of religion.

May I know if there's any way I can read Quran in English? I really wanted to go deep with it. Your holy book somehow shares the same context as ours.

As I watched THE ARRIVALS, the teachings of Quran inspire me a lot as carried out through the theme of the film.

I hope you can shed some light on me with this matter.

Hear yah soon!

You can read Quran translation. For any further help and Questions you can go to http://www.islamicboard.com/ That is a good forum on subjects of Islam.

Thanks a lot..

IN THIS ENLIGHTENED AGE PEOPLE NOW HAVE LOTS OF DOUBT BUT STILL MASSES BELIEVE IN A SUPERNATURAL POWER MOSTLY BECAUSE OF THEIR CHILDHOOD UPBRINGING AND ACCORDING TO THEIR RELIGIOUS EDUCATION. THAT'S WHY WE SEE MOST OF THE PEOPLE DONT FALLOW DIRECTIVES GIVEN BY RELIGION OR RESTRICTIONS , BUT STILL THEY PREACH RELIGION.
IF GOD'S EXISTENCE IS NOT YET PROVEN BY LOGIC BUT THEN ITS NOT BEEN DISAPPROVED.
TO FALLOW BLINDLY ONCE FAITH CUD BE VERY DANGEROUS SAME TIME THERE CUD BE BAD RESULT FOR THIS PREMATURE SOCITY IF IT IGNORE THE IMPORTANCE OF RELIGION .

The consequence of sin is death and pain. For those you choose to accept Jesus' blood sacrifice will be given forgiveness of their sins and be given eternal life where there is no more death or pain.

The choice is ours. This life is just a decision period.

Will you accept Christ?

i personally believe in god, but not in any form

i think god is just some kinda blurry thing

I don't think anyone can or should have to prove beyond reasonable doubt the existence of God or lack there-of. Those who believe in God will turn to their holy scripture as a means of explaining the various creations and happenings of the world, while those who do not will usually turn to science, or some sort of spiritual source for those who follow another path. It all boils down to what you believe to be true in relation to how you perceive the world, there are no hard facts that can prove either stance - at least, not yet.


IMHO:

The world is a messed up place, not because God (I believe in God so the rest of my post will be a reflection on my beliefs not facts) wanted it to be so, but because of how we as imperfect humans have caused it to be. Our imperfection has both good and bad consequences on ourselves and how we make the world to be. While it strives us to improve and better ourselves it also causes us to be 'weak' (for lack of a better word) and make choices that someone who has achieved perfection would know better than to make.

So why hasn't God stopped all the craziness that's been going around and make the world free of sickness, war, poverty, famine and make it a better, problem-free existence?

Well (and again, this is only my opinion) I don't really think we need to God to do anything to stop these things from occurring. By witnessing these things I have been able to have a better appreciation for my life and the things I have personally been through. Which, in turn, has caused me to want to help those who are less fortunate than I am. We don't go to war because 'God tells us to', we go to war because certain individuals choose to do so of their own free will. God doesn't want people to be homeless or dieing of malnourishment, people are the ones responsible for this.

If we were perfect, and the world around us perfect as well, how could we expect to be able to cherish those special moments, be grateful for what is given to us, have a desire to succeed or better ourselves/world, or even know right from wrong. If the world was perfect no one die, no one would starve, no one would be homeless, no one would suffer, feel anguish, make mistakes - there would be no need for laws or certain jobs/businesses ... it would be a fairy tale life.

I don't blame religion or God for what is going on - I blame the people who have abused their rights and privileges of the position that they hold, whether it be political, educational, religious, spiritual, parental and so on.

I know this doesn't really explain why I believe in God but, I just wanted to comment on previous posts asking why or how we can believe in God if the above mentioned things are allowed to happen.

In the end what matters most is how we lived our lives, the type of person we were, and what we did with the opportunities and obstacles we have faced.

bushra21 wrote:I don't think anyone can or should have to prove beyond reasonable doubt the existence of God or lack there-of. Those who believe in God will turn to their holy scripture as a means of explaining the various creations and happenings of the world, while those who do not will usually turn to science, or some sort of spiritual source for those who follow another path. It all boils down to what you believe to be true in relation to how you perceive the world, there are no hard facts that can prove either stance - at least, not yet.


IMHO:

The world is a messed up place, not because God (I believe in God so the rest of my post will be a reflection on my beliefs not facts) wanted it to be so, but because of how we as imperfect humans have caused it to be. Our imperfection has both good and bad consequences on ourselves and how we make the world to be. While it strives us to improve and better ourselves it also causes us to be 'weak' (for lack of a better word) and make choices that someone who has achieved perfection would know better than to make.

So why hasn't God stopped all the craziness that's been going around and make the world free of sickness, war, poverty, famine and make it a better, problem-free existence?

Well (and again, this is only my opinion) I don't really think we need to God to do anything to stop these things from occurring. By witnessing these things I have been able to have a better appreciation for my life and the things I have personally been through. Which, in turn, has caused me to want to help those who are less fortunate than I am. We don't go to war because 'God tells us to', we go to war because certain individuals choose to do so of their own free will. God doesn't want people to be homeless or dieing of malnourishment, people are the ones responsible for this.

If we were perfect, and the world around us perfect as well, how could we expect to be able to cherish those special moments, be grateful for what is given to us, have a desire to succeed or better ourselves/world, or even know right from wrong. If the world was perfect no one die, no one would starve, no one would be homeless, no one would suffer, feel anguish, make mistakes - there would be no need for laws or certain jobs/businesses ... it would be a fairy tale life.

I don't blame religion or God for what is going on - I blame the people who have abused their rights and privileges of the position that they hold, whether it be political, educational, religious, spiritual, parental and so on.

I know this doesn't really explain why I believe in God but, I just wanted to comment on previous posts asking why or how we can believe in God if the above mentioned things are allowed to happen.

In the end what matters most is how we lived our lives, the type of person we were, and what we did with the opportunities and obstacles we have faced.

I like the marked section. People think to much in boxes. There is more out there so we should all speak in one voice instead of battling eachother because of our differences.

I wonder how we ever going to communicate to an alien society when even our human race is unable to agree on matters and speak in one voice.

We have a lot to learn on this planet. Bunch of ignorants, thats what we are (relatively speaking of course).

So Robby as an atheist how do you attain spiritual enlightenment?

I listen to music. Serious!
But think it's time for me to read about Buddhism. I kinda like the concept. Not sure if I'll follow it though. Need to study it first.

Captain Australia wrote:

naruto wrote:yes i can prove that god exist..

look around you and you will know that god exist.

I've looked around me and if God does exist then he is a cruel b*stard. So many suffering and dying for no reason. Is it all a sick joke to him?

Well, I think God handed us humans the right tools, now it's up to us to use them in the right way.

Hm.. I always loved these discussions about God's existence.
So what do we have till now:
1. The world is a mess, mostly because of the humans, and there is no sign of God to clean it up.
2. There are multiple religions that do not allow us to see an integral God, with an integral purpose and goal..
3. It is impossible to prove that there is no God at all... simply because we don't know everything there is, to say that something is missing
4. And the unbeatable fact: There is a pink elephant on the dark side of the moon.


Actually I try to separate the God from all the religions. When I see how many religions including Buddhism, Christianity and Islam have so many interpretations and how new religions appear and disappear the only conclusion I can draw is that humans are very imaginative. And if we are inventing new religions today when many complex natural phenomenas are explained by science, what should we think of our ancestors thinking that we are in the center of the Universe... and that sun is rotating around earth.

Many people in this topic are saying that they are perfectly happy leading good lives on earth and don't need an "incentive" of heaven or fear of hell for that. I agree. An atheist or an agnostic can be a wonderful person. In other words he/she can be morally sound or ethically sound. The problem is that you can't really uphold ethics without giving some credit to religion. I am not saying you have to believe in god, but you must give religion as a concept it's dues. The ethics that atheists believe that they have can only have come from 3 places (by my estimation).

1- Man has a natural inclination towards good and a natural revulsion towards evil. The problem with this solution is that it implies that man is not purely mechanical and that emotions are not simply a product of hormones/neurotransmitters. So it implies that man has a soul which must have been "created" which in turn implies that god exists. So........

2- God does not exist but man has invented systems of morality over the years that with the progression of civilization have now become our ethical code. Unfortunately, the only such recorded systems are Religion. So whether or not religion as a concept is true or false, this explanation states that our modern concepts of ethics and morality are derived from religion.

3- God does not exist and religion has no role in forging sound ethical systems. Ethics in fact are a result of evolution and natural selection. Human beings have a natural revulsion to evil and a natural liking to good deeds because over the centuries a good moral system has proved to be a favorable trait for survival. Better survival means greater chance of passing on your genetic code and so natural selection is what caused these traits of morality to pass down through generations upon generations in offspring's genetic code. There are two problems with this theory. 1- The most successful people in the world are the most corrupt, so I really doubt it if a good moral code is a favorable trait for survival, especially in pre-law societies. 2- This explanation should imply that we are gradually becoming better and better people. Umm....look around you and tell me where is the improvement exactly???

So, it's not cool to knock religion and just say it causes problems and all religions should be abolished. My 2 cents

Andyba wrote:Hm.. I always loved these discussions about God's existence.
So what do we have till now:
1. The world is a mess, mostly because of the humans, and there is no sign of God to clean it up.
2. There are multiple religions that do not allow us to see an integral God, with an integral purpose and goal..
3. It is impossible to prove that there is no God at all... simply because we don't know everything there is, to say that something is missing
4. And the unbeatable fact: There is a pink elephant on the dark side of the moon.

Actually I try to separate the God from all the religions. When I see how many religions including Buddhism, Christianity and Islam have so many interpretations and how new religions appear and disappear the only conclusion I can draw is that humans are very imaginative. And if we are inventing new religions today when many complex natural phenomenas are explained by science, what should we think of our ancestors thinking that we are in the center of the Universe... and that sun is rotating around earth.

Mmm...dude, the sun does rotate around the earth. I'm serious, it does.

God's existence probability is 50% period.

snake wrote:God's existence probability is 50% period.

Huh?

Mmm...dude, the sun does rotate around the earth. I'm serious, it does.

Yeah and the earth is carried by giant elephants that are on a back of giant flying Turtle.
I know that.. but hush... it's a big secret nowadays.

1- The most successful people in the world are the most corrupt, so I really doubt it if a good moral code is a favorable trait for survival, especially in pre-law societies.

It depends what you consider success. If loads of money and power - then may be but I still do not agree with this. There are many really rich people that are not corrupt. And if some are you don't know really if they were corrupt before they become rich. Power corrupts as you know.
For example i consider Newton and Einstein successful people because they succeed in what they were doing.

2- This explanation should imply that we are gradually becoming better and better people. Umm....look around you and tell me where is the improvement exactly???

There is less slavery and less suffering then a couple of hundreds years ago. Plus many people are doing harm without realizing it because of ignorance and not because they want to do it. Many are doing bad things when they try to do good things - that is because of lack of knowledge on how to achieve the same good results in a more positive manner.

Unfortunately in the current society as it is people do not need much for survival.. these including ethics.

Actually there is a theory that morality exists as long as conscience exists.
http://ar.vegnews.org/morals.html

Andyba wrote:

Mmm...dude, the sun does rotate around the earth. I'm serious, it does.

Yeah and the earth is carried by giant elephants that are on a back of giant flying Turtle.
I know that.. but hush... it's a big secret nowadays.

1- The most successful people in the world are the most corrupt, so I really doubt it if a good moral code is a favorable trait for survival, especially in pre-law societies.

It depends what you consider success. If loads of money and power - then may be but I still do not agree with this. There are many really rich people that are not corrupt. And if some are you don't know really if they were corrupt before they become rich. Power corrupts as you know.
For example i consider Newton and Einstein successful people because they succeed in what they were doing.

2- This explanation should imply that we are gradually becoming better and better people. Umm....look around you and tell me where is the improvement exactly???

There is less slavery and less suffering then a couple of hundreds years ago. Plus many people are doing harm without realizing it because of ignorance and not because they want to do it. Many are doing bad things when they try to do good things - that is because of lack of knowledge on how to achieve the same good results in a more positive manner.

Unfortunately in the current society as it is people do not need much for survival.. these including ethics.

Actually there is a theory that morality exists as long as conscience exists.
http://ar.vegnews.org/morals.html

I was serious, the sun does rotate around the earth! It's a common misconception that it doesn't. We just neglect to think about it because the sun's orbit is huge and so it takes an insane amount of time to complete it's cycle. In other words, its movement is not really relevant to human beings. Sorry but had to get that out of my system.

Anyway, so you believe that ethics is an evolutionary trait? Your argument that people do wrong although they are well intentioned and that this is due to ignorance does not really hold. First of all, people are not more ignorant now than they were before. You just feel it because now everyone has access to publicizing his opinion. So idiots are roaming wild. But it does not have a role in good and bad. Also there is less slavery and suffering not because people are becoming better. That is due to the progression of law. You cannot compare lawless or legally primitive societies to modern ones. However, just because the concept of what is "accepted" and what isn't has changed, that does not mean ethics has evolved. Corruption is relative to the society you can exercise it in. For all our current laws and restraints, I feel corruption is increasing not decreasing.

Also, when I was talking about success, I meant success as SURVIVAL. Otherwise, the whole evolutionary argument goes out the window. Natural Selection cannot efficiently pass on immaterial traits like self actualization and contentedness. The Self Actualization of scientists like Newton is at the very top of Maslow's hierarchy, maybe it has a small survival benefit, but is definitely insignificant compared to money. For a trait to be passed on it needs to be a strong survival tool because genetics are only passed on through reproduction which requires long life spans. For longer life, you need material things. In other words, money. Money gives you a higher probability of being healthy a higher probability of finding shelter and a higher probability of finding a mate. So success for the case of this discussion cannot be Newton or Einstein. It has to be Buffet.