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and why we must ALL recognise respect is a two-way street.


In one of our papers today is a very interesting article. It has given me a new perspective and i hope some food for thought and debate.

Yesterday a Jordanian Editor was sacked because he asked his readers a question.

"What brings more prejudice against Islam - these caricatures? Or pictures of a hostage-taker slashing the throat of his victim?"

Also is an interesting fact that the Egyptian newspaper (gov controlled) Al Ahram routinely publishes anti- Jewish (not simply anti - Israeli) caricatures of men with hooked noses and Fagin like faces gloating as they take over the world and soak it in muslim blood.

When challenged the editor stated "well i'm affraid its just part of our culture, you should not take it too seriously".

This leads the writer on to say

"well free speech is part of our culture - so long as it does not seek to incite violence. But we do not riot, tear down mosques, burn national flags or do not issue death threats against those who offend me or my principles".

It is a suprise to most non muslims that representations of the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) are forbidden. However the Koran does not state this. This only occurs in the Hadith which is a collection of the sayings of the Prophet written after his death.


Going back to the subject of offending caroons. Another Egyptian newspaper Al Ackbar also publish anti semitic cartoons. For example showing an Israelli Soldier with a Swastika for legs and the head of a pig, or Ehud Barak dressed as Hitler with blood dripping from his hands and standing on the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem.

Were the Egyptian embassies in Tel Aviv, Washington or London sieged by protestors.? NO.

Furthermore an english language paper produced in Saudi "The Arab News", and circulated around the Gulf , last week, depicted cartoons of Ariel Sharon wilding a swastika shaped axe to chop up Palestinian children.

To me these cartoons, all of which were copied in the Mail, are highly offensive. But the writer is right and i agree, it does not make me want to go and protest outside of any Embassy, let alone even leave my house for.

Some food for thought and hopefully peaceful calm discussion and debate please.

Arniegang - interesting points.

Propaganda and insults should not take place and demean the person making the protests. However Arnie - all the instances you mention are +intended+ to cause offense, because of the hatred that is felt towards the people being insulted.

Two wrongs don't make a right - the presence of offensive and insulting cartoons in arabic publications does not excuse the publication of offensive and insulting images in European newspapers. Both are wrong and both cause offense to the targets - I'm sure no Jew feels happy to see these images.

However, note that no Arabic newspaper would publish a cartoon lampooning Moses, Jesus or any other Jewish prophet.

I therefore come back to the general point that Freedom of Speech is not without it's bounds - all civilized societies agree that it stops at the point where it becomes intentional and gratuitious insults. There are laws of slander and libel which transcend freedom of speech. This is also called common courtesy and respect.

I'll die in a ditch to defend anyone's right to freedom of speech... but please don't expect me to thank you for insulting what I hold dear. (Just a general point, not aimed at anyone in particular)

wasalaam,
Shafique

Idolizing any of the prophets is blasphemy and a no go. Can we kill this subject.

I don't believe we should kill this subject. The shoe is on the other foot now (in terms of cartoons), and I do not hear or see any Westerner of Christian faith shouting "death to Muslims", rioting and burning Arab national flags, and storming embassies and other consulates etc.

Liban, I want to ask you a direct question:

Do you agree with the way Muslims have reacted around the world i.e. death threats, pictures of masked gunmen, storming of consulates/embassies etc?

Mr. Boobs, you can add burning embassies to the list. (Danish, Chilean, and Swedish embassies on fire in Damascus.)

Liban

My post was not one of intention of starting a "flame" war. I merely wanted to open this up for discussion, in particular, with people like yourself in the hope of better understanding and serious debate.

The article in the Daily Mail today, in my view was a very interesting read. The writer, similar to Shafique puts his point across without "bias". It was merely giving facts and an alternative viewpoint.

Liban, we all have agreed the cartoons were disgraceful. The point of my post was to draw attention to the fact that many Arab newspapers also post such cartoons, that are also considered disgraceful.

The Arab newspapers in showing as Nazi Israelli figures and in particular Hitler is deemed both highly offensive to not only the Jewish people, but the likes of any individual like myself, that lost family in 1the 939-45 war irespective of their religion.

At the end of the day, it cuts both ways doesn't it. As much as every Muslim took huge exception and anger to the cartoons (and rightly so), within various Arab publications, the very same thing is done to others. This was as offensive to Israelli's per se' and other individuals, as the Dutch cartoons were offensive to Muslims.

Sweetheart ;

why were u pissed off when i said "Pious Cow to " British Queen .

So find the answer of your question in " why were arniegang pissed off when HP said pious cow to british queen "

well all people are not the same , and some people take it insult and then you can see the reaction

Because i found it offensive HP - the same as i find the cartoons regarding the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) offensive. I think you may have lost the plot HP.

One of the major points here is "the result of the reaction". Words and peacefull demonstrations are powerful tools, buring buildings and threatening and intimidating people are not.

arniegang wrote:Because i found it offensive HP - the same as i find the cartoons regarding the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) offensive. I think you may have lost the plot HP.

One of the major points here is "the result of the reaction". Words and peacefull demonstrations are powerful tools, buring buildings and threatening and intimidating people are not.

So u culd tell this to President G.W.Bush after 9-11 , that they shuld had done peacefull demonstrations because it was powerful tool ,bombing Afghanistan and Iraq are not

well as well as Muslims in DK are concerned they did a lot , they even tried to meet with Prime mininster of DK ,but he refused to meet them. When nothing came out ,they they went to middle east to tell the muslims govt how the danish media ws making fun of our prophet .

HP this has nothing to do with 9/11, i am not even going there.

It had nothing to do with the Danish PM. The paper was not breaking any law within a country that has a "free press".

He has stated on TV that he considered it offensive and that it should not have been printed.

Anyway what has the Danish PM talking or not talking, got to do with the burning of Embassies and violent demonstrations?

arniegang wrote:HP this has nothing to do with 9/11, i am not even going there.

It had nothing to do with the Danish PM. The paper was not breaking any law within a country that has a "free press".

He has stated on TV that he considered it offensive and that it should not have been printed.

Anyway what has the Danish PM talking or not talking, got to do with the burning of Embassies and violent demonstrations?

Free press also has obligation .The people who work for media they understand cross culture issue and sensitivity of the particular issue ,thats why British and US media has self censorship . DK is losing it market in middle east .

as i said ......in some cultures and socities ,some people have great respect for some personalities and some people care more than the others. So when someone make fun of their feeling ,aftermath is always " out of control".

Group of Danish people announced to Brun the Holy book of muslims in Copenhagen ,DK. When the news speard in middle east that Danes are buring the Quran (koran) in Copenhagen ,muslims were angry and you saw the situation in Syria.

yorky500 wrote:
Liban, I want to ask you a direct question:

Do you agree with the way Muslims have reacted around the world i.e. death threats, pictures of masked gunmen, storming of consulates/embassies etc?

There are many ways to react to what those morons did in Europe with those blasphemous pictures. Now I personally would have suied (sp?) the perpetrators for an official apology and firing the staff that authorzed the cartoons AND boycotted and/or sanctionned the products of the country to make the respective nation's leader apologize (PM, Royal, President, etc...).

Now as for what is happening... Well people are angry, they are insensed, and deeply offended. Our governments are for the most part, quite stupid to be honest and do not do shit all for their people (lets stop kidding ourselves with this point). Therefore our people have to take action.

I am not going to condemn what these people are doing because I feel for them and I myself am extremily angry and insulted...

But as for myself, I am simply engaging in the boycott and I have emailed a few of the magazines and papers to tell them how insulted and hurt I am... Of course, no response... So that tells you how I would have acted....

yorky500 wrote:I don't believe we should kill this subject. The shoe is on the other foot now (in terms of cartoons), and I do not hear or see any Westerner of Christian faith shouting "death to Muslims", rioting and burning Arab national flags, and storming embassies and other consulates etc.

Liban, I want to ask you a direct question:

Do you agree with the way Muslims have reacted around the world i.e. death threats, pictures of masked gunmen, storming of consulates/embassies etc?

well yorky let me ask u a question. How many ppl go to church and give a damn about Christainity? How many ppl really follow the 10 commandments? most of the christians outthere wear the cross just for fashion and cry out "Jesus" as an expression. That religion is almost dead. Ppl nowadays think money and power as God. Those ppl themselves insult Jesus Christ what hell respect would they pay to other prophets? So they dont have time to say death to muslims cos they can spend that time to earn money.

Look people the headline of news paper ,which published cartoon

Honourable Fellow Citizens of the Muslim World

Hahahaha ,this was the news paper ,which always used to write against muslims ,sometime they find the problem in head scarf and sometime they were doing the research like " every 1 out of 5 muslim is terrorist and criminal in Denmark "

I am happy to see now they are paying back

Hashman

Why dont you attempt to discuss the original post instead of attacking Yorkie with discussions and agruement that had nothing to do with his post and the topic at hand.

Yesterday a Jordanian Editor was sacked because he asked his readers a question.

"What brings more prejudice against Islam - these caricatures? Or pictures of a hostage-taker slashing the throat of his victim?"

Well i say both ...but slashing the throat seems "OK" as US is occupied in Iraq and there is only way to discourage the US is to distrub the daily life . The killing of innocent persons is against the code of Islam but one has to understand the feeling of people ,who are taking such kind of action and why are they doing it.

I believe that Editor asked the stupid questions.

Also is an interesting fact that the Egyptian newspaper (gov controlled) Al Ahram routinely publishes anti- Jewish (not simply anti - Israeli) caricatures of men with hooked noses and Fagin like faces gloating as they take over the world and soak it in muslim blood.

I think you shuld demonstrate a little bit maturity here and dont compare the prophet wid occupied Jew. News paper usually make the cartoon of political figures and leaders , but that is something else . Showing the prophet as terrorist is entirly a different tale.

When challenged the editor stated "well i'm affraid its just part of our culture, you should not take it too seriously".

This leads the writer on to say

"well free speech is part of our culture - so long as it does not seek to incite violence. But we do not riot, tear down mosques, burn national flags or do not issue death threats against those who offend me or my principles".

Well muslims never made fun of any prophet ,in order to bcome muslims ,one has to accept all prophets.

It is a suprise to most non muslims that representations of the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) are forbidden. However the Koran does not state this. This only occurs in the Hadith which is a collection of the sayings of the Prophet written after his death.

The reason is that people dont worship his representations. The jyllnad posten made the cartoon by showing as "Holy Prophet was terrorist" . Just imagine if someone link the British Queen to mad Cow of UK then?

Going back to the subject of offending caroons. Another Egyptian newspaper Al Ackbar also publish anti semitic cartoons. For example showing an Israelli Soldier with a Swastika for legs and the head of a pig, or Ehud Barak dressed as Hitler with blood dripping from his hands and standing on the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem.

Were the Egyptian embassies in Tel Aviv, Washington or London sieged by protestors.? NO.

I think i already posted the answer of this quote;0) .

HP, once again you miss the point.

No it's not acceptable to kill innocent people, just because you're pissed off! No-one should ever condone the killing of innocents. And stop yapping on about Iraq, it's irrelevent. Plus you didn't see Americans openly murdering Muslims on the streets after 9/11 did you? No!

The point is the violent reaction from certain Muslims is unacceptable which ever way you look at it. Peaceful demonstration says far more than making threats and destroying things, people never respond to bully boy tactics, and you have your evidence by the reaction of the Danes in retaliation.

I really don't know why you find it so hard to understand that the violent reactions of certain people are damaging the image of Islam and Muslims even more than it is already, and they are not the reaction of the general population.

And once again I say to you, that the violent and threatening reaction is only reinforcing the way the Prophet was depicted - this really isn't brain surgery you know. If you didn't have suicide bombers and people willfully blowing things up, he would never have been drawn that way in the first place.

Plus you still don't understand the concept of free press either, so it's pointless trying to explain it to you anymore. Plus when people give you examples of things the arab press has printed, you go so what! It happens on both sides, but the reaction is totally different.

The whole thing is a mess, you've now got Danes protesting against other Danes for their encouragement of a violent reaction, the excuse has been given for Nazi supports to jump on the band wagon and the last thing you need is the likes of them and the BNP (British National Party) to be given an excuse to kick off.

Choco

read what i wrote above , i cant repeat again and again . I dont know who wrote this quote ,but i really apperciate it :

" The best defence is in attack "

If muslims start taking agressive steps as they did against Denmark and Danish companies , euroepan countries will get a lesson ( and they are getting) and i love it ;0) .

HP

you are correct in quoting the saying

"the best form of defense is attack".

however, it comes down to how you define or interperet "attack".

IMHO it ranges anywhere in between and icluding a "stongly worded letter" and murder.

arniegang wrote:HP

you are correct in quoting the saying

"the best form of defense is attack".

however, it comes down to how you define or interperet "attack".

IMHO it ranges anywhere in between and icluding a "stongly worded letter" and murder.

The way someone define attack is strongly depend on "what capacity do they have to define a attack".

If you are as powerful as USA ,then you will invade a country or put the economic sanction against the subject country.

if you are in Iraq ,the only power you have to discourage against invasion is " behading".

If you are British football spectators ,attack means violence against the spectators of other country or club :0) .

If you are as Great as Great Britain ,you will make "shoot to kill" rule :0)

Its how one chooses to apply the interptetation HP - end of

The Extremist Islamic Movement is fighting against the status quo. It is a very fueled movement because most people are actually unhappy with themselves, and the situations in which they are in.

Look at how many self help books, diet pills, and Jerry Springer guests there are, in general it is an unhappy world.

BUT if your going to fight the status quo, then offer something different. Dont just complain to complain, my second grade teacher taught me that.

The Extremist Islamic leaders want a world of NO womens rights, violence for intimidation, and no freedom of religion, or worse no freedom FROM religion.

Democracy is the worst form of government, but its better then all of the other ones we have tried. Live by that quote untill you can provide the world with a stable country under a new form of government.

** I especially like the pictures of seeing kids screaming anti danish slurs in school, I bet they cant even pick out denmark on a map. Great education system, teach hate before you teach anything else. Thats called brainwashing.

So Extremist islamic States withhold education from women and teach children hate. And people are upset at cartoons? Look at yourself before spending so much energy trying to correct everyone else

pacificsurf619 wrote:The Extremist Islamic Movement is fighting against the status quo. It is a very fueled movement because most people are actually unhappy with themselves, and the situations in which they are in.

Look at how many self help books, diet pills, and Jerry Springer guests there are, in general it is an unhappy world.

BUT if your going to fight the status quo, then offer something different. Dont just complain to complain, my second grade teacher taught me that.

The Extremist Islamic leaders want a world of NO womens rights, violence for intimidation, and no freedom of religion, or worse no freedom FROM religion.

Democracy is the worst form of government, but its better then all of the other ones we have tried. Live by that quote untill you can provide the world with a stable country under a new form of government.

** I especially like the pictures of seeing kids screaming anti danish slurs in school, I bet they cant even pick out denmark on a map. Great education system, teach hate before you teach anything else. Thats called brainwashing.

So Extremist islamic States withhold education from women and teach children hate. And people are upset at cartoons? Look at yourself before spending so much energy trying to correct everyone else

Wow, that was a pretty ignorant post. You are stereotyping all Islamic countries here! Were you aware that there are many Islamic countries with many different rules, education systems, political systems etc.? Go do some reading.

Notice the term Extremist.

Please provide me an example, and I will be the first to apologize

Examples of what?

You wrote "The Extremist Islamic leaders want a world of NO womens rights, violence for intimidation, and no freedom of religion, or worse no freedom FROM religion."

Perhaps you could give some examples?

I want to clarify that Extremist is not an adjective to describe Islamic states, its a group that preaches Extremist Islamic traditions and behavior. So make sure thats clear, I am not saying ALL islamic states, I am just stating the ones that preach Extremist activitity and doctrine.

(The same ones that encourage violent protests)

Please name some, just so we are all clear.

Dude, watch the news

Kanelli, Don't bother! pacificsurf619 obviously has a bit of a split personality and can't make up his mind, if you read one of his other posts!