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Linda, I'm not trying to silence anyone who criticises western countries at all, just putting the other side of the coin... surely a good thing to hear all points of view on any issue on a forum like this. It's not about "correcting" a Muslim's view of things or trying to impose another way of thinking on them, rather to offer an exchange of views on an issue and offer a different perspective. There's nothing wrong with that. It's not arrogance or trying to force a view on someone else.

I still say your view of the media is jaundiced even if you are narrowing it down to international politics and the view of other civilisations. You suggest there is a hidden agenda to distort things against Muslims. Well I think you do a great disservice to the many excellent, professionally trained and impartial journalists who, in western publications and on radio and TV, give the public the facts about what is going on and scrutinise western policies intensely. In the publications I have worked on as a journalist, never have I witnessed reporters, subs or anyone else sit down with a pre-ordained agenda to twist things and give the public a biased view of the world, whether in relation to Arab nations or elsewhere.

As far as Liban goes, there is nothing wrong with someone expressing a view passionately but he sometimes does invite rebuke with his aggressive, sabre-rattling tirades of which the folowing is but one example of many:

"As far as I am concerned, the Jews are a curse on this planet...
They are like a disease. They infest and spread like vermin."

Now that kind of thing I do find offensive, hate-filled and extreme, whatever the rights and wrongs of things in the Middle East.

Linda, just as you feel I don't show any sympathy about an issue I have had no hand in creating, I feel that you are on the defensive and rarely provide a balanced view of an argument. You always defend the Arab/Muslim side. You condone nasty language and a bad attitude by Liban, just because you have a fiance who is Arab and you are now oversympathetic to the issues.

I do contribute to the topics in these threads and am provoked into saying something about Liban when he spews his usual bad attitude. There is one thread where I brought Liban up first - and I will admit that freely.

Liban, the Danish people are right! The government should not apologise for the actions of one stupid newspaper editor. Also, Danish people value free speech, whether it is good or bad and they will protect that right. If you choose to see this as a reason to loathe the Danish people, go ahead!

Liban and Linda, you seem to look at every Westerner like they owe an apology to the Arab world. Every perceived offense to Islam or an Arab nation automatically means that all citizens in the offending country or region of the world are complicit. I feel this is totally unreasonable, and a double standard.

kanelli wrote:So I am supposed to apologise for human beings and civilisations following the principle of "survival of the fittest"?. If certain groups or nations have had more money, more power, more influence, even at the expense of others - that is just the way the world works. This has been proven throughout history even if it isn't fair and isn't right. The strongest will do what it takes to survive and thrive - no matter what race or religion they come from. If the Arabs rise one day and take over the world, so be it - it would prove that they are stronger and fitter then. I am well aware that oppressed peoples will always fight to regain power.

Even though I can acknowledge the past, I feel that these are not the old colonial days - we should be wiser and more respectful of each other. Every nation has the capability to ensure peace and prosperity in the world, but greed and power are still getting in the way. I would rather see humans and civilisations cooperating together, not manipulating each other and killing each other. This is where you and I differ Liban. I want cooperation and understanding, and you want revenge.

Did you miss this post Linda?

both camps here have a sort of case, so i suppose you could say im gonna sit on the fence - pmsl theres a first.

What i would like to say though as a form of obsrvation, and not to flame this issue is.

I would like to summerise in my own words what i think Kanelli and GB are gettin at in relation to Liban. Liban please dont over react.

Liban, it is clear that you are of well above average intellegence. This is obvious from the excellent knowledge you have in your writings.

However on a personal level some of "what you say" and "how you say it", concerns me greatly. You will no doubt remember a few weeks ago, that within a discussion, you had to resort within the arguement/heated debate ( call it what you will ) making a physical threat. Equally you speak of others with real and genuine hatred.

It is clear, that people like myself on here, do not either understand or concur with that level of mentallity. Clearly, i do not have the same level of hatred for any group or individuals as you, and i think in this thread Kanelli and GB are saying so also, "between the lines".

If you think it is acceptable and enjoy trying make yourself look like some sort of "hard man" in here, then clearly that is your perogotive.

I will go back to my original comments regarding your intellegence. Your points, which in the main carry great value and are generally very interesting to read would carry you far more respect and interest, if you could post without all the "i only live one traffic light away from you and i will come and drag you out and beat you to crap", which we all know is just words and bollox anyway. Posting it in here, and if you actually done it, would get you at least 10-15 years.

Anyhow, just my 10 pence worth.

GoodBai wrote:
"As far as I am concerned, the Jews are a curse on this planet...
They are like a disease. They infest and spread like vermin."

I stand by my declaration. Damn them for what they did to the Virgin Mary and damn them from what they did from that point till today.

Their Messiah (savior) is the Anti-Christ.... How can they live with themselves....???? They made a mokery of Moses...

Shameful people...

Liban... what arnie says is true, you are obviously intelligent and have genuinely-held views, but you also suffer from tunnel vision and have a chip on your shoulder the size of Africa.

There will be no peace in this world if the majority are as entrenched as you are.

arniegang wrote:"i only live one traffic light away from you and i will come and drag you out and beat you to crap", which we all know is just words and bollox anyway. Posting it in here, and if you actually done it, would get you at least 10-15 years.

Anyhow, just my 10 pence worth.

You'd have to prove that I did it. It would be one hell of a coincidence but it would be just that - a coincidence.

Also, 10 pence??? Thats practically 1 AED... Way too rich for my blood

GoodBai wrote:Liban... what arnie says is true, you are obviously intelligent and have genuinely-held views, but you also suffer from tunnel vision and have a chip on your shoulder the size of Africa.

There will be no peace in this world if the majority are as entrenched as you are.

I already said what would allow for peace in this world. You, and Kanelli, obviously are too entrenched in your misaligned accusations of my being a bla bla bla to properly read what I typed.

But thats OK, you two are blinded by your prejudice.

Liban, your view of the world, the west and everything else are all too clear from the words you yourself write on here.

Read my posts in detail and then come back to discuss my views... Those who attack them obviously do not understand what I am trying to say or where I am coming from...

Regrettable.

Liban if I am Jewish man who believes non-violence and other atrocities against humanity and respect other religion why the hell should I be killed just for being a Jew? Well Jewish ppl have been tortured by Europeans and restricted from civil anf other positions so Jews had to find a way to earna living which was mainly by business. Now after the Holocaust those Europeans found a solution to dump most of the Jews so they got the land and Jews in the hope of better living left for Palestine. Yes they have commited so may atrocities but that is in the case of most of the wars. Now they feel the burnt from arabs. My main question is why should u hate a Jew for just being a Jew?

Kanelli has a really good point! You go on about punishing those who printed this stuff, but in boycotting all you do is make those innocent working people who had nothing to do with it suffer - where's the logic.

Linda, Your whole take on everything is one-sided and screwed.

Yshimy, you still fail to see the big picture, you seem to waste a lot of time getting het up and engrossed with things that at the end of the day are small time compared to alot of other things.

Liban, I think you need to chill out dude. You do come across as very aggressive with a bit of a chip on your shoulder. And all this we WILL be the best, you WILL respect us doesn't do you any favours. Plus you keep harping on about colonialisation and the crusades, are you constantly going to blame the future generations for something they had nothing to do with? What do you want us to do? Build a time machine and undo it all - live in the now dude! In those times as has been said those with stronger armies or naval capabilities were able to expand their empires, it's just the way it went.

hashman wrote:Liban if I am Jewish man who believes non-violence and other atrocities against humanity and respect other religion why the hell should I be killed just for being a Jew? Well Jewish ppl have been tortured by Europeans and restricted from civil anf other positions so Jews had to find a way to earna living which was mainly by business. Now after the Holocaust those Europeans found a solution to dump most of the Jews so they got the land and Jews in the hope of better living left for Palestine. Yes they have commited so may atrocities but that is in the case of most of the wars. Now they feel the burnt from arabs. My main question is why should u hate a Jew for just being a Jew?

Why do Jews always act like victims????

Burnt from Arabs? Hehehehe that is laughable.... As if WE stole your lands.... As if WE deported you from your home.... Sure... Arabs burnt the Jews... Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeee...........

Why did your people betray the teachings of Moses with that golden goat? Why did your people curse the Virgin Mary? Why did they turn their backs on Jesus? Why did they betray Mohammed? Why do they want to control everything today? Why is it when we speak against Israel (the country), all Jews call us anti-semites when Arabs are semetic also?

Answer me this and you will know 10% of the whole reason we have a beef with you....

Note, that there are good Jews I am sure... But they are far and few in between and even if they were born in Country A and never been to Israel, their loyalties lie with that illigitamite Western creation and for that reason also, we do not like you all that much.

Liban, slightly hypocrital seeing as you're now the one crying and acting like a victim over a little drawing - Duh!

Chocoholic wrote:Kanelli has a really good point! You go on about punishing those who printed this stuff, but in boycotting all you do is make those innocent working people who had nothing to do with it suffer - where's the logic.

Linda, Your whole take on everything is one-sided and screwed.

Yshimy, you still fail to see the big picture, you seem to waste a lot of time getting het up and engrossed with things that at the end of the day are small time compared to alot of other things.

Liban, I think you need to chill out dude. You do come across as very aggressive with a bit of a chip on your shoulder. And all this we WILL be the best, you WILL respect us doesn't do you any favours. Plus you keep harping on about colonialisation and the crusades, are you constantly going to blame the future generations for something they had nothing to do with? What do you want us to do? Build a time machine and undo it all - live in the now dude! In those times as has been said those with stronger armies or naval capabilities were able to expand their empires, it's just the way it went.

I disagree....

If is happening again today with Bush's crusade.... Bush even used the word CRUSADE... Fcuking bastard...

The West wants a crusade.... The West will get one hell of a response....

Liban, you call for the sword instead of political action!

If the Arabs could band together and use their influence (hello oil!) to take POLITICAL action against countries that displease them - then that would be worthwhile and many people would not have to die because of terrorism or possible war. Unfortunately, too many radical Arabs only know to use the sword (or bomb etc.) instead of their brains. The Jews have an excellent political lobby but the Arabs can't seem to get their shit together and lobby for action. Want to know why it is hard to band the Arabs together? Because there are still dictatorships that don't listen to the people, and they are too busy fighting over internal issues like which branch of Islam is best. Stop blaming everyone else and do something to effect POLITICAL change, not just sitting in your armchair talking about violence. Maybe terrorists think that violence effects political change, but in the end it only creates conditions for war, which is unfair to millions of innocent people on every side. Use brains instead of brawn and it will get you further! I use my right to vote and sign petitions to speak out against actions that I don't approve of and support actions I do approve of, what about you?

I have to say that I am impressed with this whole boycott issue because at least something political/economic is beind done, even if I feel it is misplaced in this case. There needs to be more peaceful and strategic actions like this, not killing Danish people!

To clarify, when I say "you" in my last post, it is not specifically for Liban. Don't want my post misinterpreted.

You fail to grasp the issue. If Arabs use oil as a weapon, the US will take counter action. It needs the oil feilds and it will take take action to seaze them as it did in Kuwait (its a defacto US territory), Iraq, Saudi before, etc....

You are naive if you think that an oil weapon will work....

Also, you use your right to vote to make change???

Millions of Canadians living in your country want:

Lower taxes
Better Healthcare
Better roads
Lower gas taxes
Better education
etc...

The more things change, the more things stay the same.... Governments come and go and its the same old crap.... So please....

I lived there for many years.... Case in point; When the liberals promissed to remove the GST 15 years ago and they were subsequently elected, what happened? Nothing....

OK, so now you have the PC under that Harper dude.... Think anything is gonna change??? NO!

But I digress....

I will repeat because you seem to keep missing my point over and over again...

If the west understands the saber and uses it, we will respond in kind and then some... If the west wants to genuinly talk, then withdraw from our lands, cut off your support for the terrorist and pariah Israel, and we will talk.

Intimacy wrote:Those who throw dust at the sun

the dust falls in their own eyes

I hope all those that try to rebuke me take note of what Intimacy has just said.

Liban wrote:You fail to grasp the issue. If Arabs use oil as a weapon, the US will take counter action. It needs the oil feilds and it will take take action to seaze them as it did in Kuwait (its a defacto US territory), Iraq, Saudi before, etc....

You are naive if you think that an oil weapon will work....

Excuse me, the US went into Kuwait because Iraq went into Kuwait - don't rewrite history Liban. Even if there was some gain in that for the US, I'm sure the Kuwaitis don't mind that they are still Kuwaitis and not Iraqis. I didn't see all kinds of other armies rushing in to do the job from neighbouring Arab countries...

You have failed to grasp the issue. If all the Arab nations banded together it would mean that the US would face retribution from more than one nation and would think twice before trying to invade. Do you really think that other Western nations would support the US if they attacked just for oil purposes? The world has already found out that there were no WMDs and the US used military action for revenge against Saddam (who did deserve to be overthrown) and oil. There is very low support for continued occupation of Iraq and protest are still being held every year in many countries. (I should know, because I have attended!) In case you don't remember, the US invasion of Iraq was not sanctioned by the UN - the US acted unilaterally on that one - so all Western countries are not complicit. Even though the US went in, the rest of the world is keen to see a peaceful and stable Iraq and have gotten involve in that effort. By now, the US is getting so far in debt because of war and it is stretching itself thin. If the US would not get support from other nations it simply could not attack another country. It is all politics, and as GoodBai and some others have mentioned - the West DOES NOT have a conspiracy against the Arabs, especially not because they are Arab or Muslim. Have you ever wondered why many Arab nations have not militarily attacked the US over Iraq? Because they knew Saddam was a tyrant and not worth it, and they want to protect their own oil revenue. Maybe some Arab nations need to get their priorities straight - oil wealth, or making offending countries lose power by crippling their economy.

Liban wrote:You fail to grasp the issue. If Arabs use oil as a weapon, the US will take counter action. It needs the oil feilds and it will take take action to seaze them as it did in Kuwait (its a defacto US territory), Iraq, Saudi before, etc....

You are naive if you think that an oil weapon will work....

i dont bout you but this is funny !!! ... MAN your OIL CANON! Ensd in the OIL Bomber !!!! YEAH FRY THOSE FCKERS !!! a lil bit ginger and onion pls !!!!!! heheehehe

heheeheh ok men ... (immitating the last stance of putting bayonet) its time to get your baby oil ! get ready to connect !!! !! ATTACK !!!!

oil weapon ... anyway dont mind me guys pls do go on ... i just thought its funny ...heheheeheh

Liban wrote:You fail to grasp the issue. If Arabs use oil as a weapon, the US will take counter action. It needs the oil feilds and it will take take action to seaze them as it did in Kuwait (its a defacto US territory), Iraq, Saudi before, etc....

You are naive if you think that an oil weapon will work....

i dont know bout you but this is funny !!! ... MAN your OIL CANON! Ensd in the OIL Bomber !!!! YEAH FRY THOSE FCKERS !!! a lil bit ginger and onion pls !!!!!! heheehehe

heheeheh ok men ... (immitating the last stance of putting bayonet) its time to get your baby oil ! get ready to connect !!! !! ATTACK !!!!

oil weapon ... anyway dont mind me guys pls do go on ... i just thought its funny ...heheheeheh

A sad fact in Iraq is that the overwhelming majority of the many people who are being slaughtered on a daily basis are Muslims who are dying at the hands of fellow Muslims.

As was those killed when Iraq invaded Kuwait

Yeah, don't you love the double standard?

In Iraq you have Muslims from other countries coming for various reasons. For example,
- to kill some coalition soldiers
- to kill fellow Muslims from a different branch of Islam so that one's own branch would become stronger politically
- to kidnap Westerners who come to Iraq to help rebuild, report what is going on to the rest of the world, provide medical aid and security - just to make some money or try to get more of their own people out of prison etc.

Muslims are killing innocent Muslims, and coalition troops are killing innocent Muslims, but the coalition are evil and the Muslims are within their rights? Why the double standard?

Young Iraqi men line up for training to become police so that the coalition forces can leave sooner - but they just get blown up by Muslims from neighbouring countries who want to manipulate the politics in Iraq.

The coalition is trying to help get a government set up in the hopes that peace and security can be restored, but there is too much fighting amongst the differing religious factions. Also, the elected and appointed officials keep getting assassinated by fellow Muslims.

Where is the unity of the Arab nations? Where is the Arab support to get Iraq back into shape so that its citizens can prosper?

Anyhow, I doubt any of these points are going to get through to Liban or any of the other "blame everything on the West" types here. They'll keep wielding their religious swords despite logic, reason, and contrary evidence.

1) Tell those damn soldiers to leave Arab land
2) I will not discuss inter-Islamic issues with non beleivers
3) We don't need any westerners coming in to Iraq who are part of Christian groups (as many of those people are), or westerners in the "security" field who protect illegitimate forces/people, etc...

The coalition is setting up a peace for puppets for better control over Iraqi oil and national assets as well as driving to creating military bases like in Germany during the Cold War... How galant of them. The people lining up to be soldiers are actually helping the Americans and as such taking unnecessary risks.

Westerners should butt out. We don't want them involving themselves, we don't need them to talk in our place, we don't want them discussing inter-Islamic disagreements... I mean you don't see Arab countries, like say Jordan, speaking on the deep schisms in Christianity now do you???

Leave us be. If we have a problem with our governments, which we do for the most part, we will deal with them. But if you stick your finger in our affairs, we will bite it off.

Now back to the main thread topic.

Exactly the response I expected. I especially like number 2! Very convenient

I'm done banging my head on a wall.

kanelli wrote:Exactly the response I expected. I especially like number 2! Very convenient

I'm done banging my head on a wall.

EXactly the comeback I was waiting for too...

Did you crack your skull yet???