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Yes or No?

Clearly there is a God and he has been known to make mistakes.
You are living proof of that.

Bora Bora wrote:Clearly there is a God and he has been known to make mistakes.
You are living proof of that.

That's soooo very cute. What a cute funny person you are!!! Hey I thought you left...what happened?

Depends on what you do with the answers you get..

YES, BUT PEOPLE HAVE SO MANY DIFF GOD,S

Nah!

Offcourse!!......... I do!!.........

No, there can't be, otherwise there wouldn't be so much pain and cruelty in the world. If there is one, it left a long time ago or is doing a crappy job.

No God, until proven otherwise. (and don't come to me with a book of proof, cause I write you another one)

RobbyG wrote:No God, until proven otherwise. (and don't come to me with a book of proof, cause I write you another one)

And why don't you believe on God? Its because you can't see HIM?

freeneasy1 wrote:

RobbyG wrote:No God, until proven otherwise. (and don't come to me with a book of proof, cause I write you another one)

And why don't you believe on God? Its because you can't see HIM?

Well, thats one way to argument it. But I lean to the knowledge (read: scientific) side of humanity and ~90 percent of our universe existence is explainable under these laws. We have an expanding universe and I will not drive you further into details.

Point is: ~10 percent of what happened during the Big Bang (theorem) is yet unexplainable in terms of energy transfers because we don't have that knowledge yet. But the human race will develop that in the future, I'm sure we will.

The universe is basically originated from a single point in space and expands over time (hence we have history) and is a balancing act of matter against anti-matter (quantum gravitational particals) that we are able to see visibly as matter (most of our visible universe).

Wikipedia about anti-matter:
"There is considerable speculation as to why the observable universe is apparently almost entirely matter, whether there exist other places that are almost entirely antimatter instead, and what might be possible if antimatter could be harnessed, but at this time the apparent asymmetry of matter and antimatter in the visible universe is one of the greatest unsolved problems in physics. The process by which this asymmetry between particles and antiparticles developed is called baryogenesis."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimatter

So, I don't think that a God exists. If he does, I hope we can shake hands one day one way or the other. I rather think to believe in a powerplay of energy and balancing forces that created the world we live in. Over time, this world will evaporate just as it was formed in history due to the expanding nation of our universe. The more it expands, the less our molecular particals remain in place by its gravity. And in billions of years from now, everything will become blurr again. But mankind might be somewhere else, if not extinct by the rude cause of nature and walk of space.

Anybody cares to explain your viewpoints with some spiritual wealth, is always welcome. I may not (fully) believe in it, but I will respect it. And I do mean positively.

RobbyG wrote:No God, until proven otherwise. (and don't come to me with a book of proof, cause I write you another one)

Well I don't believe in RobbyG until proven otherwise

Snow wrote:Do You Believe In God?

Do you?

newdubai wrote:YES, BUT PEOPLE HAVE SO MANY DIFF GOD,S

And they can all hear you without shouting.

God wrote:

RobbyG wrote:No God, until proven otherwise. (and don't come to me with a book of proof, cause I write you another one)

Well I don't believe in RobbyG until proven otherwise

I guess that would all settle with a nice cup of tea.

When do you want to believe?

RobbyG wrote:

freeneasy1 wrote:

RobbyG wrote:No God, until proven otherwise. (and don't come to me with a book of proof, cause I write you another one)

And why don't you believe on God? Its because you can't see HIM?

If you don't care about book then why giving reference?

Ok, tell me do you feel the pain? have you ever seen it?

freeneasy1 wrote:

RobbyG wrote:

freeneasy1 wrote:

RobbyG wrote:No God, until proven otherwise. (and don't come to me with a book of proof, cause I write you another one)

And why don't you believe on God? Its because you can't see HIM?

If you don't care about book then why giving reference?

Ok, tell me do you feel the pain? have you ever seen it?

Unfortunately yes. But I tend to manage it myself. Don't need a religion for that, if you don't mind me saying.

You are not getting mad at me now huh? I don't want to be forced upon since I like the freedom of speech and democracy!

Please don't take it away from me

RobbyG wrote:

freeneasy1 wrote:

RobbyG wrote:

freeneasy1 wrote:

RobbyG wrote:No God, until proven otherwise. (and don't come to me with a book of proof, cause I write you another one)

And why don't you believe on God? Its because you can't see HIM?

If you don't care about book then why giving reference?

Ok, tell me do you feel the pain? have you ever seen it?

Unfortunately yes. But I tend to manage it myself. Don't need a religion for that, if you don't mind me saying.

You are not getting mad at me now huh? I don't want to be forced upon since I like the freedom of speech and democracy!

Please don't take it away from me

Take your time dude I am not forcing you for anything.Just think and find the reality in your spare time.

Best wishes.

freeneasy1 wrote:

RobbyG wrote:

freeneasy1 wrote:

RobbyG wrote:

freeneasy1 wrote:

RobbyG wrote:No God, until proven otherwise. (and don't come to me with a book of proof, cause I write you another one)

And why don't you believe on God? Its because you can't see HIM?

If you don't care about book then why giving reference?

Ok, tell me do you feel the pain? have you ever seen it?

Unfortunately yes. But I tend to manage it myself. Don't need a religion for that, if you don't mind me saying.

You are not getting mad at me now huh? I don't want to be forced upon since I like the freedom of speech and democracy!

Please don't take it away from me

Take your time dude I am not forcing you for anything.Just think and find the reality in your spare time.

Best wishes.

So you gave up hope this quick for me?
Thats was not my intention. I like discussion

Get back here you God lovin' animal cracker

Best wishes back.

There is no scientific proof of God's existence... So if you believe that only science can explain every thing you'll probably deny God simply cuz it's not needed in your belief system.

There are other disciplines out of science context. People could endlessly argue about the definitions of the basic cornerstones of philosophy and that's also not exactly a science. So could an atheist and a religious person argue forever reaching no where.

Believing in God is a matter of choice. And maybe people mix between this and the miseries caused by different religions fighting for whatever.

And my answer is yes, I choose to believe in God...

bedro wrote:There is no scientific proof of God's existence... So if you believe that only science can explain every thing you'll probably deny God simply cuz it's not needed in your belief system.

There are other disciplines out of science context. People could endlessly argue about the definitions of the basic cornerstones of philosophy and that's also not exactly a science. So could an atheist and a religious person argue forever reaching no where.

Believing in God is a matter of choice. And maybe people mix between this and the miseries caused by different religions fighting for whatever.

And my answer is yes, I choose to believe in God...

Nice and balanced argument Bedro.

I agree that we can argue/discuss to no limits about what is true and what is not. We simply cannot prove everything from both perspectives, wheter atheist or religious. I think a basic respect is key.

I don't like the hardliners that push people into their faith or religion. It should be a free choice.

I tend to like spiritual people. They have very nice viewpoints that can enlighten me in some cases.

Well here is a very good argument on the scientific argument on the exsitance og God from an article written by Dr Zakir Naik. I actually wanted to post a link but somehow can't so did a paste job.

G not throwing a book at you but is a major part of thr article, give it a reads anyway. Ofcourse the article is open to discussion after going over it. Whether postive or negative.

Lets have your 2 cents

LOGICAL CONCEPT OF GOD


My first question to the atheist will be: "What is the definition of God?" For a person to say there is no God, he should know what is the meaning of God. If I hold a book and say that ‘this is a pen’, for the opposite person to say, ‘it is not a pen’, he should know what is the definition of a pen, even if he does not know nor is able to recognise or identify the object I am holding in my hand. For him to say this is not a pen, he should at least know what a pen means. Similarly for an atheist to say ‘there is no God’, he should at least know the concept of God. His concept of God would be derived from the surroundings in which he lives. The god that a large number of people worship has got human qualities - therefore he does not believe in such a god. Similarly a Muslim too does not and should not believe in such false gods.

QUR’AN AND MODERN SCIENCE


The methods of proving the existence of God with usage of the material provided in the ‘Concept of God in Islam’ to an atheist may satisfy some but not all.

Many atheists demand a scientific proof for the existence of God. I agree that today is the age of science and technology. Let us use scientific knowledge to kill two birds with one stone, i.e. to prove the existence of God and simultaneously prove that the Qur’an is a revelation of God.

If a new object or a machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, is shown to an atheist or any person and then a question is asked, " Who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object? After little bit of thinking, he will reply, ‘the creator of that object.’ Some may say ‘the producer’ while others may say ‘the manufacturer.’ What ever answer the person gives, keep it in your mind, the answer will always be either the creator, the producer, the manufacturer or some what of the same meaning, i.e. the person who has made it or created it. Don’t grapple with words, whatever answer he gives, the meaning will be same, therefore accept it.

SCIENTIFIC FACTS MENTIONED IN THE QUR’AN: for details on this subject please refer to my book, ‘THE QUR’AN AND MODERN SCIENCE – COMPATIBLE OR INCOMPATIBLE?

THEORY OF PROBABILITY


In mathematics there is a theory known as ‘Theory of Probability’. If you have two options, out of which one is right, and one is wrong, the chances that you will chose the right one is half, i.e. one out of the two will be correct. You have 50% chances of being correct. Similarly if you toss a coin the chances that your guess will be correct is 50% (1 out of 2) i.e. 1/2. If you toss a coin the second time, the chances that you will be correct in the second toss is again 50% i.e. half. But the chances that you will be correct in both the tosses is half multiplied by half (1/2 x 1/2) which is equal to 1/4 i.e. 50% of 50% which is equal to 25%. If you toss a coin the third time, chances that you will be correct all three times is (1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2) that is 1/8 or 50% of 50% of 50% that is 12½%.

A dice has got six sides. If you throw a dice and guess any number between 1 to 6, the chances that your guess will be correct is 1/6. If you throw the dice the second time, the chances that your guess will be correct in both the throws is (1/6 x 1/6) which is equal to 1/36. If you throw the dice the third time, the chances that all your three guesses are correct is (1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6) is equal to 1/216 that is less than 0.5 %.

Let us apply this theory of probability to the Qur’an, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qur’an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.

At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur’an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.

Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.



The Qur’an speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation. Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it upto you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses, the chances of all of them being correct guesses simultaneously and there being not a single wrong guess. It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qur’an is Divine.

CREATOR IS THE AUTHOR OF THE QUR’AN

The only logical answer to the question as to who could have mentioned all these scientific facts 1400 years ago before they were discovered, is exactly the same answer initially given by the atheist or any person, to the question who will be the first person who will be able to tell the mechanism of the unknown object. It is the ‘CREATOR’, the producer, the Manufacturer of the whole universe and its contents. In the English language He is ‘God’, or more appropriate in the Arabic language, ‘ALLAH’.

QUR’AN IS A BOOK OF SIGNS AND NOT SCIENCE


Let me remind you that the Qur’an is not a book of Science, ‘S-C-I-E-N-C-E’ but a book of Signs ‘S-I-G-N-S’ i.e. a book of ayaats. The Qur’an contains more than 6,000 ayaats, i.e. ‘signs’, out of which more than a thousand speak about Science. I am not trying to prove that the Qur’an is the word of God using scientific knowledge as a yard stick because any yardstick is supposed to be more superior than what is being checked or verified. For us Muslims the Qur’an is the Furqan i.e. criteria to judge right from wrong and the ultimate yardstick which is more superior to scientific knowledge.

But for an educated man who is an atheist, scientific knowledge is the ultimate test which he believes in. We do know that science many a times takes ‘U’ turns, therefore I have restricted the examples only to scientific facts which have sufficient proof and evidence and not scientific theories based on assumptions. Using the ultimate yardstick of the atheist, I am trying to prove to him that the Qur’an is the word of God and it contains the scientific knowledge which is his yardstick which was discovered recently, while the Qur’an was revealed 1400 year ago. At the end of the discussion, we both come to the same conclusion that God though superior to science, is not incompatible with it.

SCIENCE IS ELIMINATING MODELS OF GOD BUT NOT GOD


Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God. Scientists today are eliminating models of God, but they are not eliminating God. If you translate this into Arabic, it is La illaha illal la, There is no god, (god with a small ‘g’ that is fake god) but God (with a capital ‘G’).

Surah Fussilat:

"Soon We will show them our signs in the (farthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?"

[Al-Quran 41:53]

Good post Desertdude...I was going to put some articles by Zakir Naik but the stubborn Guy dont need any references.

And yes its a matter of choice,alot of people are blessed with the acceptance of God.And God says itself,if you take one step to get near to me I will take ten steps to get closer to you.

The only point is,We should think about it.What is the purpose of our life?Why we are created?God gives guidance to those who ponders.

Peace

freeneasy1 wrote:Good post Desertdude...I was going to put some articles by Zakir Naik but the stubborn Guy dont need any references.

And yes its a matter of choice,alot of people are blessed with the acceptance of God.And God says itself,if you take one step to get near to me I will take ten steps to get closer to you.

The only point is,We should think about it.What is the purpose of our life?Why we are created?God gives guidance to those who ponders.

Peace

Its a very good post of DD.

But me stubborn? Well perhaps a bit, but you haven't heard anything yet from me...(that won't ease you either does it ).

Anyway to reply to the effort of DD;

Thats a very good article you brought up. Let me elaborate a bit. I said NO in reply to the topic poster (he/she asked YES or NO), but as you can see I added that I needed to find the proof of his existance first before I say otherwise.

In this context, I would say that God perhaps exists. I leave the possibility open as it is clear to me that we (human kind) know very little of the wonders and magic that surrounds us. What we do know is explained in plausible situations that can be verified by our known laws of physics, mathematics, philosophy etc etc. Surely some corrections and assumptions will be changed over the course of future. But this is something we can hang on to, at least for now. Its like a religion...and look where it brought us nowadays.

From the carbon emitter you drive to the drink you buy, from the aircraft you fly on to the internet you communicate with. Its all possible due to science and technology. Originated from assumptions that are backed with theory and knowledge from the past. Trial and error. I guess the Quran (which I find very very accurate indeed assuming it has not been rewritten during the course of time) has also been based on certain perceptions of one divine individual with a mind like Einstein, perhaps even more intelligent. We just assume for now. Some belief or have faith. Its all the same by definition.

Recently our innovations have discovered other solar systems. Our Milky way is just one of them. Now we can look further with the Hubble space satellite. Our technology eye in history. We see the light that radiates from these distant stars and we can measure and calculate the wavelengths and observe colors that define the masses out there. And unlimited source of information that we never heard of before. Since I'm no expert of the Quran nor the Bible, my guess is that both books dont mention anything that is not visible with the human eye. Its a perception of limitid vision I think. Because I believe there is much more we don't know of yet.

Thousands of solar systems like ours have been discovered and that in itself is some proof for plausibility that there can be other worlds like us. We could have an near identical system out there that inhabits other lifeforms that are yet unknown to mankind nor its divine sources. The truth is we just don't know yet. But as long as we strife for innovation and faith in science. We will know one day. One day we shelve the old theories as history and embrace the new ones. You'll see or maybe we won't in this lifetime. Our son's and daughters will see perhaps....

Still, we hope and have faith in our beliefs and values. Some slightly different and some equal. Don't punish people for these differences since they will all be refuted in the future. Not a single man can know everything of life. At least not the man I know. Its is us together that brought the light into my eyes. And that light still shines bright as I speak. That light for me is science, ...and I don't mean scientology church. Thats a different story I don't admire.

Hope that sheds some light in your eyes about my view of books and faith/religion.

People need something to hold on to. If they lose that, they get lost. Just make sure you belief in peace and freedom of choice. That will keep us from eliminating ourselves oneday. Cause that is the biggest risk this world of ours inhabits. Our own destruction by ignorance and war.

Diversity is key and will lead us out one day to the next challenges the future will bring. History as a learning curve, shelved at the library.

Cheers people. Best wishes and peace to all of you out there

RobbyG wrote:Nice and balanced argument Bedro.

I agree that we can argue/discuss to no limits about what is true and what is not. We simply cannot prove everything from both perspectives, wheter atheist or religious. I think a basic respect is key.

I don't like the hardliners that push people into their faith or religion. It should be a free choice.

I tend to like spiritual people. They have very nice viewpoints that can enlighten me in some cases.

Thanks mate. I wish I could have more time to elaborate more.

RobbyG wrote:

In this context, I would say that God perhaps exists. I leave the possibility open as it is clear to me that we (human kind) know very little of the wonders and magic that surrounds us.

Well thats good to hear, atleast your open to the possiblity of a creator,

RobbyG wrote:I guess the Quran (which I find very very accurate indeed assuming it has not been rewritten during the course of time) has also been based on certain perceptions of one divine individual with a mind like Einstein, perhaps even more intelligent. We just assume for now. Some belief or have faith. Its all the same by definition.

Yes you assume right that it has not been rewritten or text been altered in anyway. I don't understand the other part though. If your implying or questioning that it was written by a very smart indiviual whose thinking was way ahead of its time ?

Well if it is that, the explination to that "accusation"( not saying that you are accusing but many do ) Is that first of all the man alleged to have written it is ofcouse the Prophet Muhammed, lemme try to clear out this point. First of all he was an illterate man who could not even sign his own name till the day he died, he did not mingle with the great thinkers of his time. He was a simple camel driver.

Secondly the Quran speaks of things and events such as the big bang , embryology, the water cycle, pain nerves under the skin, the earth in its orbit around the sun, even the geospherical shape of the earth which until recently was thought to be a perfect sphere things the scientific community has only recently come to discover some as late as the last century.

So there is no explination of how an illiterate camel driver living the deserts of arabia 1400 hundred years agon would know all of these things.

For me personally this is more that sufficient evidence that this is the word of the one true God.

Also there are lots of things that are mentioned in it things we can't prove yet by scientific method and like you said our future siblings might find out, but the article only spoke of established facts so left all of these out.

Also to adress one of the "more" powerfull argument of the atheist is that religon has brought us nothing but war and misery even since its invention so it can't be a good thing.

Well I would say yes there has been a lot of blood shed in the name of religon but right down from the crusades to the current situation the people waging war in the name of religon are merely using religon to serve their own twisted agenda.

If you don't know how to drive a car and constantly keep crashing it, so whos fault is it ? The car's or the person driving it ? Infact if most of these poeple followed even half of their religon the world would be a peacfull place

I haven't come across a religon ( not cult ) which promotes violence or is against peace and humanity.

Humans are violent by nature if its not religon they will find another excuse violence, not all wars and crimes against humanity are done in the name of religon. Man will find a reason whether it be nationality, colour or skin or cast, he will find a reason. Some just use religon as one of the many excuses. In fact all religons promote peace and humanity only if people heeded to it.

What I would like suggest it aleast give these scriptures a read, if nothing else you would have better understanding whats its really about.

The concept of God is merely an invention by man, to instill control, rules and laws. The 'holy' books were all written by 'mortal men', therefore open to interpretation and untruths.

Chocoholic wrote:The concept of God is merely an invention by man, to instill control, rules and laws. The 'holy' books were all written by 'mortal men', therefore open to interpretation and untruths.

I agree with you roughly.
It is fear of the unknown that bonds people together (religion) by invention of man. Its easier to control a crowd that points their faces in the same direction than to steer a nation with different faces. The same goes for support for a war. Its how the heads are lined up together. Fear is a factor in that and we humans are simply to emotional beings to counter that rationally. Thus we go to war.

Hence diversity is needed for different mindsets. Balancing agreements and majorities that are needed for serious treats and human welfare/rights.

To go to war because of a decent religion enforced by evil men and truly dedicated followers is not fair. Its like a dictatorship for income and control of its movement. A true open society, in my opinion, holds secularity, where government and ideology (religion) are separated and doesn't influence eachother. History is proof of that being the most peaceful for mankind.

desertdudeshj wrote:Yes you assume right that it has not been rewritten or text been altered in anyway. I don't understand the other part though. If your implying or questioning that it was written by a very smart indiviual whose thinking was way ahead of its time ?

I'm implying that it must have been written by a very smart individual at 600AC. Again, I'm not familiar with the Quran nor the Bible books.

Well if it is that, the explination to that "accusation"( not saying that you are accusing but many do ) Is that first of all the man alleged to have written it is ofcouse the Prophet Muhammed, lemme try to clear out this point. First of all he was an illterate man who could not even sign his own name till the day he died, he did not mingle with the great thinkers of his time. He was a simple camel driver.

I didn't know the man was iliterate. I immediately ask myself who should have written the book then? (I don't acknowledge it, but merely discuss this situation). Since I don't simply believe every good faith, I stand neutral as question the fact whether it has been written during that time and slowly would eliminate facts that are not plausible. This principle is root cause analysis. Elimination of probabilities.

Secondly the Quran speaks of things and events such as the big bang , embryology, the water cycle, pain nerves under the skin, the earth in its orbit around the sun, even the geospherical shape of the earth which until recently was thought to be a perfect sphere things the scientific community has only recently come to discover some as late as the last century.

Aristoteles proved that the world was round in 330BC. However, you are right about it being egg-shaped or geospherical. This indeed is remarkably accurate for a visionair ~600AC

So there is no explination of how an illiterate camel driver living the deserts of arabia 1400 hundred years agon would know all of these things.

Why seek an explanation for it because of the book. Just question it and let the wiseguys proof it!

For me personally this is more that sufficient evidence that this is the word of the one true God.

Also there are lots of things that are mentioned in it things we can't prove yet by scientific method and like you said our future siblings might find out, but the article only spoke of established facts so left all of these out.

That would be the limited vision I spoke about. A book is based on historical facts that change over the course of time. At least they need an update every so often.

Also to adress one of the "more" powerfull argument of the atheist is that religon has brought us nothing but war and misery even since its invention so it can't be a good thing.

Well I would say yes there has been a lot of blood shed in the name of religon but right down from the crusades to the current situation the people waging war in the name of religon are merely using religon to serve their own twisted agenda.

Thats why government and ideology (religion) work at their best when separated. Secularity is a good thing. Diversity.

If you don't know how to drive a car and constantly keep crashing it, so whos fault is it ? The car's or the person driving it ? Infact if most of these poeple followed even half of their religon the world would be a peacfull place

Its the root of the cause that is to blame: That would be the driver school at place 1. and situational awareness/personal responsbility at 2.

I haven't come across a religon ( not cult ) which promotes violence or is against peace and humanity.

Humans are violent by nature if its not religon they will find another excuse violence, not all wars and crimes against humanity are done in the name of religon. Man will find a reason whether it be nationality, colour or skin or cast, he will find a reason. Some just use religon as one of the many excuses. In fact all religons promote peace and humanity only if people heeded to it.

I think humans are not necessarily violent. We have a survival mentality and a competitive nature. Its just how the ethic rules are setout to ensure we don't wander of the path to peace. We tend to hold on to long to old legacies from the past. We must adapt more than we are used to. Unfortunately there are people like Taliban that think they can go back to 7th century rules and emancipation standards. That is ignorance and completely un-woman-worthy also, to give one example.

What I would like suggest it aleast give these scriptures a read, if nothing else you would have better understanding whats its really about.

Cheers

Chocoholic wrote:The concept of God is merely an invention by man, to instill control, rules and laws. The 'holy' books were all written by 'mortal men', therefore open to interpretation and untruths.

And what made you come to that conclusion ? There has to be an explination or you just got up one day and on whim decided not to believe ?

Today is a world of science and on that very small article I posted citing just a very few examples it clearly demostrates that the mathematical probability of it being a book written by a "mortal man" is NIL. So how would you explain that.

Now I am not juding or trying "shove" something down your throat, just your side of the story