Today's The Independent Article!! Most Damning One Till Now!

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Apr 08, 2009
Long article - but worth reading till the end. Good writeup. Elements of the article are not something we would read in the local papers except for a few bits and pieces here and there. As was written in the article - many people are aware of the situations but turn a blind eye.


Misery Called Life wrote:And finally before coming to the UAE, people know the deal....They accept the conditions and willingly come.


Nope MCL, not true - all classes of workers - from labourers to well-educated senior staff have been misled. Examples are plenty even on this forum where people have asked for help. Many companies do not even stick tot he conditions of contract, take away passports, delay pay. Everyone receives a rosy picture before they come here. Some lucky ones realize their dreams, others do not.

michaeldubai
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Apr 08, 2009
here we go again lol same ppl criticising dubai. i wonder how many of you are in dubai? living in fancy villas and appartments and getting paid a large sum of salary :D.
rudeboy
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Apr 08, 2009
erm Sheikh Zayed might have had a vision for the 'country' but Sheikh Mo, is the one responsible for 'Dubai'!

Also DD why do you keep harping on about Palestine etc etc, this article is about Dubai, it's discussing Dubai's issues so there is no need to even mention the others, which get their fair share.

Some of the people interviewed are crass and the stereotypical expats, which does really annoy me.

However, the 'worlds' eye is on Dubai, it has professed to be something it is not for years now, and the truth is getting out there, and oh my gosh, shock horror, people might actually have to start taking responsibility for what goes on. People might have to be treated better and laws might have to change, god forbid it might actually have to start operating like a 'real' city!
Chocoholic
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Apr 08, 2009
Chocoholic wrote:erm Sheikh Zayed might have had a vision for the 'country' but Sheikh Mo, is the one responsible for 'Dubai'!

Also DD why do you keep harping on about Palestine etc etc, this article is about Dubai, it's discussing Dubai's issues so there is no need to even mention the others, which get their fair share.

Some of the people interviewed are crass and the stereotypical expats, which does really annoy me.

However, the 'worlds' eye is on Dubai, it has professed to be something it is not for years now, and the truth is getting out there, and oh my gosh, shock horror, people might actually have to start taking responsibility for what goes on. People might have to be treated better and laws might have to change, god forbid it might actually have to start operating like a 'real' city!


dubai is country with many nationalities. so DD can talk about anything in the general chat room about anything from palestine to india. can u tell me where it mentions in the forum rules that u can only talk about dubai????
rudeboy
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Apr 08, 2009
The article is on Dubai - so why is it necessary to go off topic and bring that into it? It isn't, plain and simple. And RB, I was asking you in the first place!

Anway back ON topic! It's an interesting piece, but nothing we don't already know and see everyday as residents here.

This isn't the first attacking article and it certainly won't be the last. The powers that be have no control over international press and what they say, they can only control what happens in the UAE.
Chocoholic
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Apr 08, 2009
Chocoholic wrote:The article is on Dubai - so why is it necessary to go off topic and bring that into it? It isn't, plain and simple. And RB, I was asking you in the first place!

Anway back ON topic! It's an interesting piece, but nothing we don't already know and see everyday as residents here.

This isn't the first attacking article and it certainly won't be the last. The powers that be have no control over international press and what they say, they can only control what happens in the UAE.


lol so when i talk about american police why do ppl go off topic lol :D
rudeboy
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Apr 08, 2009
rudeboy, we know it is a common tactic for UAE cheerleaders to try to distract or side-track discussions containing criticism of the UAE by bringing up other countries and their issues. Don't underestimate people's intelligence on here, it gets annoying.
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Apr 08, 2009
Had to write :)

Dubai set its self up as the "Iconic" arab state, starting with Sheikh Rashid's commercial vision for the state (Dubai) a sound business plan based on commerce.

It was his sons and cronies who rather than sitting on the guaranteed revenue from the UAE's oil started to aquire assets and leverage against them, a bit like the millionare buy to let merchants in the UK only multiplied a million times over.

By this time the banks seeing the gravy train of "government guaranteed" debt started to flood the system, Dubai World, Dubai Holdings, Dubai Properties et al benefited.

You know the rest.

Point is, Dubai set itself up to be the ICON, so don't be surprised when the defects are pointed out.

The old locals and families are horrified at this display of meglomania and history will show that this is a turning point. The party is over.

And before camelhumper spits his dummy and feeds you all happy happy joy joy tea - most of the contents of that article are true. My family has been in Dubai since the mid 70's and experienced the changes on a day to day basis some good some not so good.

However the common thread has always been the Johnny Come Lately expat who spouts off the shelf support without knowing the history or alliances that have permitted this situation to arise. Dont ever think that you have the support of the "government" or its guardians one wrong step and you to will be living in a Toyota Corolla.

Now go read the government sponsored Gulf News, where some British toady MP on his free holiday to Dubai, is distancing himself from the "slanderous british press".

Pathetic - ritual suicide on the alter of self serving politics
viking-warrior
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Apr 08, 2009
the women are ganging up on me today. did sage the old devil send u guys :P
rudeboy
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Apr 08, 2009
Only to true sadly. You speak to some older Emiratis and they hate what DUbai has become and many will say 'when this is all over, we'll go back to the old ways'. To be honest can't blame them really. No-one asked for their opinion, no-one asked for their input.
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Apr 08, 2009
Misery Called Life
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Apr 08, 2009
Chocoholic wrote:Only to true sadly. You speak to some older Emiratis and they hate what DUbai has become and many will say 'when this is all over, we'll go back to the old ways'. To be honest can't blame them really. No-one asked for their opinion, no-one asked for their input.


i guess u wish the england was the same 10 years ago. right?
rudeboy
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Apr 08, 2009
Ten years ago? Try twenty!
Chocoholic
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Apr 08, 2009
Right now it can be a fact, but dear things changes with the passage of time. Its not the good time for DUbai, but how much this time will remain. 2 months, 10,, one year .. But the time will come to get prosper again...
Anosh
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Apr 08, 2009
Chocoholic wrote:Ten years ago? Try twenty!


lets discuss about that then :D if UK leads a good example am sure UAE will follow too ;). UAE is copying everything else UK is doing like salik and race horses so why not better human rights?

what do you say UK?
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Dubai-bashing becomes an art form Apr 08, 2009
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7&section ... m=4&y=2009


"Linda Heard I sierra12th@yahoo.co.uk

WHY do foreign journalists love to hate Dubai? While it’s certainly true that like the rest of the planet Dubai is experiencing a downturn through no fault of its own, if you read some of the shrill headlines, the emirate is on the point of becoming a deserted wasteland. “Dubai is in danger of becoming a ruin-in-waiting” writes the Toronto Star, which describes the city as “some sheikh’s mad idea of what a metropolis should be”.

“Dubai-bashing is in fashion right now,” an official from the Standard Chartered Bank in Dubai told Time magazine. He’s right except that gleeful attacks on Dubai have been prevalent ever since the 1990s when its charms were no longer a best-kept secret.

Just look at the envy or inverted snobbery oozing out of these pre-downturn descriptions.

Dubai is like “Singapore on steroids”, wrote a staff writer with CNET News. Tim Hames writing in the Times compared Dubai to “Disney in the desert, though with a coastline”.

“Is this a new science-fiction novel from Margaret Atwood, the sequel to ‘Blade Runner’ or Donald Trump tripping on acid?” asked the author Mike Davis, who described Dubai as “an emerging dream-world of conspicuous consumption, which locals dub “supreme lifestyles”.

Hester Lacey, who wrote an article on falconry for The Independent said she went to Dubai imagining “endless gruesome shopping malls flogging designer rubbish” and was “prepared to dislike the place” but she does, rather grudgingly admit that she wished she had stayed longer to take advantage of everything there is to do.

Is there anywhere in the world that is so admired and so disliked at the same time, purely due to its aspirations to excellence? For me, Dubai will always be a miracle of innovation, foresightedness and entrepreneurship.

My very first glimpse of this incredible city was in 1975 when the newly opened Inter.Continental on the Creek was its only luxury hotel. Today, of course, there are over 300. At that time, there were very few schools and hospitals and not very many roads. It was very much an enigma then. Surrounded by sand was a Lebanese-run dress boutique that wouldn’t have looked out of place on the Avenue Montaigne, selling French fashion and sunglasses. I later wowed my friends at home wearing one of the shop’s evening gowns but when I told them I had bought it in Dubai they invariably responded with “Where? Never heard of it?”

When I finally moved to Dubai in 1983, I thought I’d died and gone to heaven. I ended up staying for 14 years, some of the best of my life. And no, this had nothing to do with shopping malls. It was more a permanent sense of endless possibility in a land that was — and is — cosmopolitan, calm, simple, yet sophisticated. Even then, overseas visitors who were bowled over with the place would usually tag their enthusiasm with, “Well, this isn’t real life”, as though “real life” somehow has to be hostile or an endless struggle against adversity. It was almost as though they were unable to conceive of “real life” being a joyful adventure.

I’m no psychic, but I won’t hesitate to predict that Dubai will emerge from this global crisis even stronger than before. Indeed, it experienced something similar during the 1990/91 Gulf War. Then, untold thousands of expatriate workers left for home, tourism dried up and companies tightened their belts. I recall my own asking us not to throw away unwanted photocopies as the backs could be used to jot down notes. In fact, things were so bad that I was asked to take two months unpaid leave. But, in those days, Dubai wasn’t a headliner so its economic struggles went relatively unnoticed.

Today’s media gloom and doom merchants of which there are many point to Dubai’s lack of oil and the fact that it is highly leveraged (which country isn’t?). They shine a spotlight on idle cranes, temporarily shelved construction projects and plunging property prices as a sign that Dubai is finished. When residents begin sleeping in their cars or under canvas as so many thousands are now doing in the US, I might believe it.

A place like Dubai that emerged from the sands to become a world-beater in just over 30 years is here to stay. Just wait until the economic tide turns when I’ll bet foreign speculators will be heading to Dubai hunting for bargains in their droves. In the meantime, this relative lull may not be such a bad thing. It allows Dubai to take stock and decide upon its future direction. A commission has already devised a new code of public conduct related to dress and public displays of affection more in keeping with its religious and cultural roots.

All that glitters may not be gold but Dubai is the exception that proves the rule. May it continue going for gold for a great many years to come for the benefit of its own people. And, if nothing else, to prove its hysterical media critics and other envious onlookers wrong."


Cheers
dubai1970
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Apr 08, 2009
nice :D envious onlookers i like that. i wonder if these envious onlookers are in uk :D
rudeboy
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Apr 08, 2009
The lull is in fact a good thing. It is teaching Dubai and the UAE in general that you cannot carry on at such a pace and not suffer the consequences when things do a little pear shaped every now and then.

In future when things begin to be on the up again, I just hope that people will proceed with more caution than they have done.
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Apr 08, 2009
I'd take Linda Heard's articles with a touch of salt; she is very pro-Dubai/Saudis....probably because she gets her paycheck from there...

Some of her quotes are extremely sycophantic, particularly the bit below:


"When I finally moved to Dubai in 1983, I thought I’d died and gone to heaven. I ended up staying for 14 years, some of the best of my life. And no, this had nothing to do with shopping malls. It was more a permanent sense of endless possibility in a land that was — and is — cosmopolitan, calm, simple, yet sophisticated. "
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Apr 08, 2009
The article by Mr. Hari is very one sided.

Having said that, I agree with 100% of it, but he clearly used quoted-examples to further his point of view.

I'm sorry but using statements from ignorant British expats does not cover the thoughts of the general expat population. Many of us are well aware of the issues and do not agree with them.

I cannot think of a single monumental city that was built without slavery. Although in modern times these things should not happen, the reality is that they have, continue, and always will happen. Its just the way it is.

We do not live in a utopia. Dubai is one of the farthest places from it.
Anyone who thinks otherwise lives with their head in the clouds.

I came here to accelerate my career, even though I could have done so back home albeit not at the same pace. No different at all from the labourers and expats highlighted in the article.

I researched extensively before making my decision which helped me get settled in. I have 5% sympathy for the Canadian couple who went from ritches to rags; and thats only because of the husbands health condition. Party party party, then times get tough and you say "oh sh*t, life is soooo hard..... I hate this place.... they have such stupid laws". Well, it didnt seem that way when you were partying on a beach and drinking your arse off did it? I bet they didn't think twice about the laws when a $2.00 per day worker was opening their doors, sweeping their floors and washing that Range Rover of theirs either.

Burn in hell you as$holes.. You make me sick. I'll give my sympathy to those who deserve it.
dresden
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Re: Dubai-bashing becomes an art form Apr 08, 2009
dubai1970 wrote:Just look at the envy or inverted snobbery oozing out of these pre-downturn descriptions.

Dubai is like “Singapore on steroids”, wrote a staff writer with CNET News. Tim Hames writing in the Times compared Dubai to “Disney in the desert, though with a coastline”.


Whether you like it or not, its just a analogical expression. And a true one indeed.

If you don't understand the risk involved with such a leveraged building boom and absurd risk profile (110 percent leveraged over Dubai GDP) then you seriously have your own financial troubles already!!!

I would seek council if I was you! :wink: :lol: :lol:
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Apr 08, 2009
dresden wrote:The article by Mr. Hari is very one sided.

Having said that, I agree with 100% of it, but he clearly used quoted-examples to further his point of view.

I'm sorry but using statements from ignorant British expats does not cover the thoughts of the general expat population. Many of us are well aware of the issues and do not agree with them.

I cannot think of a single monumental city that was built without slavery. Although in modern times these things should not happen, the reality is that they have, continue, and always will happen. Its just the way it is.

We do not live in a utopia. Dubai is one of the farthest places from it.
Anyone who thinks otherwise lives with their head in the clouds.

I came here to accelerate my career, even though I could have done so back home albeit not at the same pace. No different at all from the labourers and expats highlighted in the article.

I researched extensively before making my decision which helped me get settled in. I have 5% sympathy for the Canadian couple who went from ritches to rags; and thats only because of the husbands health condition. Party party party, then times get tough and you say "oh sh*t, life is soooo hard..... I hate this place.... they have such stupid laws". Well, it didnt seem that way when you were partying on a beach and drinking your arse off did it? I bet they didn't think twice about the laws when a $2.00 per day worker was opening their doors, sweeping their floors and washing that Range Rover of theirs either.

Burn in hell you as$holes.. You make me sick. I'll give my sympathy to those who deserve it.


spoken like a TRUE Lion.
rudeboy
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Apr 08, 2009
rudeboy wrote:
dresden wrote:The article by Mr. Hari is very one sided.

Having said that, I agree with 100% of it, but he clearly used quoted-examples to further his point of view.

I'm sorry but using statements from ignorant British expats does not cover the thoughts of the general expat population. Many of us are well aware of the issues and do not agree with them.

I cannot think of a single monumental city that was built without slavery. Although in modern times these things should not happen, the reality is that they have, continue, and always will happen. Its just the way it is.

We do not live in a utopia. Dubai is one of the farthest places from it.
Anyone who thinks otherwise lives with their head in the clouds.

I came here to accelerate my career, even though I could have done so back home albeit not at the same pace. No different at all from the labourers and expats highlighted in the article.

I researched extensively before making my decision which helped me get settled in. I have 5% sympathy for the Canadian couple who went from ritches to rags; and thats only because of the husbands health condition. Party party party, then times get tough and you say "oh sh*t, life is soooo hard..... I hate this place.... they have such stupid laws". Well, it didnt seem that way when you were partying on a beach and drinking your arse off did it? I bet they didn't think twice about the laws when a $2.00 per day worker was opening their doors, sweeping their floors and washing that Range Rover of theirs either.

Burn in hell you as$holes.. You make me sick. I'll give my sympathy to those who deserve it.


spoken like a TRUE Lion.


And the lion spoke the truth.
One sided it is, hence the title was named: THE DARK SIDE OF DUBAI.

Not the flowery one, not the pink ribbon one. THE DARK SIDE, thats negative for the people who still don't understand.

Dresden is here for his career progression. An egocentric approach perhaps in the eye of the few, but its the way the worlds is built. Can't deny it either.

Say Rudeboy, your supporting an expat from Germany now! You're progressing son. Thumbs up little bugger 8) :lol:
RobbyG
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Apr 08, 2009
No brit the author interviewed showed even a bit of sympathy for the labourers and maids. I do not understand why this article from the UK painted a very horrible image of its people.
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Apr 08, 2009
pinoy1 wrote:No brit the author interviewed showed even a bit of sympathy for the labourers and maids. I do not understand why this article from the UK painted a very horrible image of its people.


Honest opinioned reporting perhaps?
RobbyG
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Apr 08, 2009
RobbyG wrote:
pinoy1 wrote:No brit the author interviewed showed even a bit of sympathy for the labourers and maids. I do not understand why this article from the UK painted a very horrible image of its people.


Honest opinioned reporting perhaps?


Absolute rubbish Robby! Opinionated rather than opinioned. I have told you before that the British press love to destroy anything that looks good, and build it up again afterwards just to show they have the power, and they do unfortunately (look at Jade Goody, if you have to...). They hate a success story and I am very sure they have been waiting for a chance to smash into Dubai, after describing it as paved with gold for the last few years.

It's pure gutter journalism, and that's what most newspapers are today, because it's what so many jaded, disillusioned people want to read; something about someone worse or worse off than themselves. Thats why people watch soap operas like Eastenders, etc in the UK; to see people living trashy lives. I don't understand it but it's huge.

You don't have this in the Netherlands? Even if you don't, surely you understand the syndrome?

You have to be very blind indeed to see that no country is all bad, and this article makes no attempt to be unbiased. They even describe a hotel as like a broken tooth for god's sake, how manipulative of people's emotions is that? You think the article might be honest? I thought you had a better brain mate, rancour and hate seeps from every word of that article, I just wonder who or who's money is behind these recent attempts to blacken Dubai and the AG (not just the journalist I am guessing.....).
Speedhump
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Apr 08, 2009
Speedhump wrote:
RobbyG wrote:
pinoy1 wrote:No brit the author interviewed showed even a bit of sympathy for the labourers and maids. I do not understand why this article from the UK painted a very horrible image of its people.


Honest opinioned reporting perhaps?


Absolute rubbish Robby! Opinionated rather than opinioned. I have told you before that the British press love to destroy anything that looks good, and build it up again afterwards just to show they have the power, and they do unfortunately (look at Jade Goody, if you have to...). They hate a success story and I am very sure they have been waiting for a chance to smash into Dubai, after describing it as paved with gold for the last few years.

It's pure gutter journalism, and that's what most newspapers are today, because it's what so many jaded, disillusioned people want to read; something about someone worse or worse off than themselves. Thats why people watch soap operas like Eastenders, etc in the UK; to see people living trashy lives. I don't understand it but it's huge.

You don't have this in the Netherlands? Even if you don't, surely you understand the syndrome?

You have to be very blind indeed to see that no country is all bad, and this article makes no attempt to be unbiased. They even describe a hotel as like a broken tooth for god's sake, how manipulative of people's emotions is that? You think the article might be honest? I thought you had a better brain mate, rancour and hate seeps from every word of that article, I just wonder who or who's money is behind these recent attempts to blacken Dubai and the AG (not just the journalist I am guessing.....).


Sure, I know that people drive on fear and demise of others.

But this article isn't really all that strange in relation to its title. Again it says very clearly; THE DARK SIDE OF DUBAI.

I don't have to repeat that anymore I hope. The article isn't about the colorful side of Dubai. Its the downturn, the depression side.

But if you see this in the light of an amusing story!? You got it all wrong.
Nobody reads a story that is 16 pages long and contains 8800 words!!! as amusing!?

This is his own opinion about stuff he sees as 'The Dark Side of Dubai', and he wrote an excellent article about it. Not a soul that can deny that. Its compelling and a bit biased to one side, but thats clearly explained in the HEADER name.

Its not a double sided article. Its his opinion about the serious side of life in Dubai. And its very sick compared to the labour unions we use here in Europe for building a road/high rise or other multi billion dollar infrastructure project. No slavery here I can tell you.

Cut the crap. It is what it is in the 21st century. If they don't want to learn from the curve we experienced in the earlier ages of growth, then they surely are able to resist the critical notes about that ignorant policies they use to support the building boom and human rights demonisation.
RobbyG
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Apr 08, 2009
RobbyG wrote:
rudeboy wrote:
dresden wrote:The article by Mr. Hari is very one sided.

Having said that, I agree with 100% of it, but he clearly used quoted-examples to further his point of view.

I'm sorry but using statements from ignorant British expats does not cover the thoughts of the general expat population. Many of us are well aware of the issues and do not agree with them.

I cannot think of a single monumental city that was built without slavery. Although in modern times these things should not happen, the reality is that they have, continue, and always will happen. Its just the way it is.

We do not live in a utopia. Dubai is one of the farthest places from it.
Anyone who thinks otherwise lives with their head in the clouds.

I came here to accelerate my career, even though I could have done so back home albeit not at the same pace. No different at all from the labourers and expats highlighted in the article.

I researched extensively before making my decision which helped me get settled in. I have 5% sympathy for the Canadian couple who went from ritches to rags; and thats only because of the husbands health condition. Party party party, then times get tough and you say "oh sh*t, life is soooo hard..... I hate this place.... they have such stupid laws". Well, it didnt seem that way when you were partying on a beach and drinking your arse off did it? I bet they didn't think twice about the laws when a $2.00 per day worker was opening their doors, sweeping their floors and washing that Range Rover of theirs either.

Burn in hell you as$holes.. You make me sick. I'll give my sympathy to those who deserve it.


spoken like a TRUE Lion.


And the lion spoke the truth.
One sided it is, hence the title was named: THE DARK SIDE OF DUBAI.

Not the flowery one, not the pink ribbon one. THE DARK SIDE, thats negative for the people who still don't understand.

Dresden is here for his career progression. An egocentric approach perhaps in the eye of the few, but its the way the worlds is built. Can't deny it either.

Say Rudeboy, your supporting an expat from Germany now! You're progressing son. Thumbs up little bugger 8) :lol:


Fackin right I'm here for me... why the hell else would I be here?

If I were a humanitarian worker I would be in other places in the world where slavery and poverty are MUCH GREATER than Dubai. read: Africa (yes, the whole continent, not just an individual city), India, Thailand (child prostitutes) and the list goes on.

When I first came here, these things shocked me. I was dumbfounded to hear about the treatment of expats until I realized that the ones who hate this place are mostly the ones who are greedy and not-content with what they have. I am willing to bet they will not be happy anywhere in the world. (Labourers excluded)

Having said that, I am yet to hear one "successful" person in Dubai complain about the place... regardless of how they 'made it'.

The media LOVES to put down Dubai; a lot of it is true. But in my opinion, there are MUCH more important things to write about and bring world attention to. I.E. the conditions of people in 3rd world countries.

Lets see them do a story on the Labourers' villages in India. Truth is, no one gives a flying feck about their hometowns because its not "exciting". How many papers can you sell by telling people about the poverty in some little village in India? Now, tell them about the "dark side of dubai" -- the oasis of the middle east (with all its hype)... then you'll get some interest.

Dubai has "celeb factor"; forget about it being a big farce. People will much rather read about Tom cruise going nuts than some random John Doe.



Another things Im sick and tired of is the constant bitchin and complaining about the laws and how hard it is to live a free life.
Guess what? You're in a place governed by Sharia law. Take it as it is or get the hell out. I'm sure the Emirati's would love to see a whole ton of expats leave.

How would you feel if some "non-citizen" expats came to your hometown and told you that your laws are unjust and unfair and your way of living is "not as good as their home towns". You would tell them to go back to where they came from.... atleast I would. :roll:


I just LOVE how some expats can bit*h and moan about the place, then get back into their porsche's and Range Rover's, drive back to their nice cushioned homes/jobs and still be upset.

Last I remembered, to be in such a position right out of Uni, my father/family had to "be somebody" of influence. It was not the "average" position of a recent grad. I was brought up in a 1st world country where the sky was the limit!

Everything comes at a price... What's the price of your "hometown" freedom?
dresden
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Apr 08, 2009
dresden wrote:Another things Im sick and tired of is the constant bitchin and complaining about the laws and how hard it is to live a free life.
Guess what? You're in a place governed by Sharia law. Take it as it is or get the hell out. I'm sure the Emirati's would love to see a whole ton of expats leave.

:cheers:

How would you feel if some "non-citizen" expats came to your hometown and told you that your laws are unjust and unfair and your way of living is "not as good as their home towns". You would tell them to go back to where they came from.... atleast I would. :roll:


Muslims in the UK are pushing for Sharia law to start to be implemented there. The sick part is that some Members of Parliament and even Law Lords have sounded in favour....what a country.

I just LOVE how some expats can bit*h and moan about the place, then get back into their porsche's and Range Rover's, drive back to their nice cushioned homes/jobs and still be upset.


Hear bloody hear!
Speedhump
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Apr 08, 2009
Chocoholic wrote:The lull is in fact a good thing. It is teaching Dubai and the UAE in general that you cannot carry on at such a pace and not suffer the consequences when things do a little pear shaped every now and then.

In future when things begin to be on the up again, I just hope that people will proceed with more caution than they have done.


You should ask RG what that word (Lull) means in his language.
sage & onion
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