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desertdudeshj wrote:

RobbyG wrote:My faith lies with the Big Bang theory which is 90 percent verifiable to date. 10 percent of the scientific knowledge is yet to be found in order to explain our existance

You do no this was mentioned in the Quran way before any the moderen day scienctist knew about it.

Well, no I don't know the Quran mentioned that. But there a reason for that. Simply because there are so many different versions of the Quran written these days, that everyone (at least some one did one day whether he was right or not) could have written it. Its the same with the Bible. Who says what's written is true? My great great great great grandpa (respect) didn't know what we know today!? Did he?

desertdudeshj wrote:[Regarding the Bomb. Its kinda Ironic how the US is so tight assed about other possesing it and casuing genocide about this issue, when seeing that they were the only ones to ever actually use this horrible WMD not once but twice. If trying to wipe out an entire city not once but twice is not genocide then I dunno what is !

I know its sounds ironic. the US can throw a bomb and you (name a state) not. But its really about a learning curve. The US admits it made a huge mistake, but it did end a World War II as the Japanese AND United States got scared bigtime, logically. Fifty years down the road and Japan still have misformed children and severe physical disabilities. Why did you think Japan didn't had an army for decades after they gave up in WWII. War is your worst nightmare and only results in more and more grief and damage. Bombs get bigger and bigger to win!
ps: Both bombs were thrown right after eachother and consequences follow for decades afterwards, next to total destruction of everything in direct contact with the bomb's outwash.

RobbyG wrote:Live your life in peace and democracy. Freedom of choice and speech. No cover ups, no nothing. Men and Woman equally strong in every part of life.

Isn't this what every one eventually strives for. To be left alone and live in peace.[/quote]

The world get more crowdy everyday and one day we have to shake hands bordering eachother. Have you seen growth figures of 1.3 billion Chinese and 1 billion Indians that reproduce like puppies!? Prepare yourself in Dubai. Here comes a growing middle class sized 50 percent of worlds population running accross your bounderaries and borders in the future

We better get acquainted now, before we all kill eachother when ends meet. Lets get rid of bombs and bad behaviour and be constructive in trade. The world's demographics look frightening and with rising sealevels...it gets even more crowdy in 50 years from now!!

Don't go in denial please. WE NEED EACHOTHER. Or you must move to outer space earlier than I go

RobbyG wrote:Well, no I don't know the Quran mentioned that. But there a reason for that. Simply because there are so many different versions of the Quran written these days, that everyone (at least some one did one day whether he was right or not) could have written it. Its the same with the Bible. Who says what's written is true? My great great great great grandpa (respect) didn't know what we know today!? Did he?

Ahh You see thats where your wrong my friend,unlike the Bible the Quran does not have versions ! There is no douay rheims, King James, RSV etc etc What you read ( I assume ) are translations into English or whatever language by the author. The Orginal Quran is in Arabic and that remains unchanged. There are two copies of orginal Quran which were written around 19-20 yrs after the prophets death still around and they match word for word what you will see from a one comming off fresh from a press. Hope thats clarifies that.


As for the rest. Worst case scenario would be if the chinese and indians became one and started to cross breed. I don't think I'm ready for around 2.1 billion chindians

I think we had enough discussion for the day.
We'll continue this one day.... I still have some issues with interpretations and such

good discussion, I think.

No worries buddy lemme know when your in the mood to bring up the topic again

RobbyG
I agree with desertdudeshj about Holy Quran and I guess you may refer to some modern Tafsir (comments to ayats i n Holy Quran). In this way we can find affirmations there. But in Quran original arabic text remains unchanged for almost 1500 years.

Meanwhile the Bible were translated, retranslated, rewritten and even edited to become an effective political tool for Church and moharch. So what we have now known as "Holy Bible" is not the same Bible were written thousand years ago.

While the Holy Quran remains unchanged and all efforts to edit it were failed. No we have an original text and many its translations we (non arabic readers) could read.

So the only difference beetween translated Quran is translate itself and Tafsir (comments) just after it's text.

Now resume: your question

Who says what's written is true?

could be answered by reading the Quran (or its translation to native lang.) and Tafsir.

=================

Consider United States bombimg Japan with nuclear bombs we could assume it was an military and political show for Soviet Union (first) and a whole world to show US supreme power at the moment. And thousands of civilians were sacrificed fot it. Nevertheless Japan was already been defeated.

kanelli wrote:I just love how some people only seem to remember racism on the part of Europeans etc. and they completely ignore the many examples of racism committed by non-whites/non-Europeans through history around the world.

Freedom of speech is a right, but it can be abused when people spread misinformation to propagate hatred. I am in favour of free speech but do think a line needs to be drawn sometimes.

In the case of the t-shirt, one can just walk up to him and tell him his shirt is offensive and makes him look like an insensitive idiot. No physical harm is appropriate.

Kanelli...yep...it perfectly describes you. Well-done.

desertdudeshj wrote:
Ahh You see thats where your wrong my friend,unlike the Bible the Quran does not have versions ! There is no douay rheims, King James, RSV etc etc What you read ( I assume ) are translations into English or whatever language by the author. The Orginal Quran is in Arabic and that remains unchanged. There are two copies of orginal Quran which were written around 19-20 yrs after the prophets death still around and they match word for word what you will see from a one comming off fresh from a press. Hope thats clarifies that.

exactly

gtmash wrote:

desertdudeshj wrote:
Ahh You see thats where your wrong my friend,unlike the Bible the Quran does not have versions ! There is no douay rheims, King James, RSV etc etc What you read ( I assume ) are translations into English or whatever language by the author. The Orginal Quran is in Arabic and that remains unchanged. There are two copies of orginal Quran which were written around 19-20 yrs after the prophets death still around and they match word for word what you will see from a one comming off fresh from a press. Hope thats clarifies that.

exactly

Thanks. That's exactly how I understood it.

So, although the Bible says 'thou shalt not kill', and maybe the Koran has something similiar, and of course other religions, hundreds of thousands of dudes get snuffed each year, many in the name of religions and race war (black, yellow, white, whatever).

The fact that the Koran says that you should treat your slaves nicely, and even get credits in the afterlife for releasing them, and does not say something like 'thou shalt not keep slaves' means that it accepts the existence of slavery without condemning it. I am not disagreeing that slaves in the US were often treated ingly, that's without a doubt, but the fact that the Koran says treat your slaves well does not in itself mean that people obeyed, so you can't just hold up those words and say 'slaves were treated better in the Middle East'. Someone already brought up the unpleasant fact of treatment of maids, we know this is an ongoing problem, the stories in the newspapers are not made up. If this can happen today, to the extent where international organizations are concerned enough to make noise, and when the Koran is still the Law, how are we to say that treatment of slaves was actually any better?

The West has always allowed such things to be reported (newspaper reports in the 1800's in the USA were often full of reports of 'kangaroo court' negro hangings, tarring and feathering, etc) and also has allowed these things to be publicly protested against (making it high profile, and rightly so). But I don't think it's safe to assume that white (against african blacks) racism has been 'worse' than any other, especially in countries where people would be scared to speak out against those more powerful than themselves, and this was the comment that I was responding to.

I'm not a holocaust denier, that's another story, but I still think this t-shirt guy would go unmolested in London because people there are maybe too tolerant of abnormal and even insensitive behaviour. It doesn't mean they would agree with his statement and should not be seen as a black mark against them.

Lastly, as I already said, it was coastal blacks that were selling their inland 'brothers' to the slavers (of all colours). Nobody has commented on this? the black reparationists certainly don't seem to ever want to talk about it......

American Nazis...

Today America's largest Neo-Nazi group is the National Socialist Movement (NSM).

NSM is a Minneapolis-based hate group known for its Nazi uniforms and open display of explicit Nazi symbols.

In the United States, the Constitutional guarantee for freedom of speech allows political organizations great latitude in expressing Nazi,

racist or anti-Semitic ideology. Due to First Amendment restrictions, the federal government generally cracks down on such organizations only

after members engage in hate crimes and violence.

Other American Anti-Semitic Groups:-

American Nazi Party
Aryan Nations
Aryan Brotherhood
Creativity Movement
Jew Watch
Ku Klux Klan
Libertarian National Socialist Green Party
National Alliance
National Independents Movement
National Socialist Party of America
NSDAP-AO

Stormfront.org
White Aryan Resistance

Speedhump wrote:

gtmash wrote:

desertdudeshj wrote:
Ahh You see thats where your wrong my friend,unlike the Bible the Quran does not have versions ! There is no douay rheims, King James, RSV etc etc What you read ( I assume ) are translations into English or whatever language by the author. The Orginal Quran is in Arabic and that remains unchanged. There are two copies of orginal Quran which were written around 19-20 yrs after the prophets death still around and they match word for word what you will see from a one comming off fresh from a press. Hope thats clarifies that.

exactly

Thanks. That's exactly how I understood it.

So, although the Bible says 'thou shalt not kill', and maybe the Koran has something similiar, and of course other religions, hundreds of thousands of dudes get snuffed each year, many in the name of religions and race war (black, yellow, white, whatever).

The fact that the Koran says that you should treat your slaves nicely, and even get credits in the afterlife for releasing them, and does not say something like 'thou shalt not keep slaves' means that it accepts the existence of slavery without condemning it. I am not disagreeing that slaves in the US were often treated ingly, that's without a doubt, but the fact that the Koran says treat your slaves well does not in itself mean that people obeyed, so you can't just hold up those words and say 'slaves were treated better in the Middle East'. Someone already brought up the unpleasant fact of treatment of maids, we know this is an ongoing problem, the stories in the newspapers are not made up. If this can happen today, to the extent where international organizations are concerned enough to make noise, and when the Koran is still the Law, how are we to say that treatment of slaves was actually any better?

The West has always allowed such things to be reported (newspaper reports in the 1800's in the USA were often full of reports of 'kangaroo court' negro hangings, tarring and feathering, etc) and also has allowed these things to be publicly protested against (making it high profile, and rightly so). But I don't think it's safe to assume that white (against african blacks) racism has been 'worse' than any other, especially in countries where people would be scared to speak out against those more powerful than themselves, and this was the comment that I was responding to.

I'm not a holocaust denier, that's another story, but I still think this t-shirt guy would go unmolested in London because people there are maybe too tolerant of abnormal and even insensitive behaviour. It doesn't mean they would agree with his statement and should not be seen as a black mark against them.

Lastly, as I already said, it was coastal blacks that were selling their inland 'brothers' to the slavers (of all colours). Nobody has commented on this? the black reparationists certainly don't seem to ever want to talk about it......

love your post...but you shall not discuss religion or politics on public forum

Why not ? if its respectfull and no name calling and offending statements are made there should be nothing wrong with it. Agreed, these two subjects can stir up quite a few emotions though.

As for Speed Humps post I totally agree that yes all religons don't endorse killings and general acts against humanity, but still we see so much of it o a daily basis.

Well lets look at it logically. Who is to blame for this. The religon, the scriptures, who ? Basically it boils down to the indiviual. Somebody who is violent and twisted by nature, he will be like this no matter which religon he follows. The other case is when influential people mostly for personal gains manipulate innocents into believing their twisted versions and interpretations.

Like lets take the case of the Taliban for example. I can for sure say the majority of them are illiterate and lacking basic education, and have grown with violence in a gun laden violent society. They only end solution they have to every problem is by the gun. Now their so called leaders for own personal gains have manipulated the majority to take up arms and lay down their a version of Islam preached to them by their " leaders " They don't see any wrong what they are doing in fact they are sure they are on the right path. Now who is to blame for this ?

Similarly was the case of the Crusaders when the church saw that it was losing politcal influence. The pope called for a Holy war and that it was decreed by god himself. And in the name of religon thousands were masscared. Who is to blame for this ?

Now lets look at the issue of slaves and Islam. When someone says the word slave, imdiately the images of poor black folk toiling in cotton fields kidnapped from Africa being tortured and flogged by their white master comes to mind.

But you have to understand what kind of slaves the Quran is talking about of the time and what the word slave really meant when it was revealed. Slaves were more like members of the household, some even raised from childhood and some would not leave their masters even when given the choice. You really have look into the kind of cultire that was alive in Arabia at the time. Yes ofcourse their were people who would abuse their wards. So the word Slave todays does not carry the same meaning it did back then. Just like the word Gay carries a totally different meaning now than it did 20 or 30 years ago.

Islam brings the message no matter who you are and what colour you are. We are all the same. Like said before the Hajj pilgrimage brings out humanity in millions toghter all dressed in a simple 2 peice white cloth. The person could be the richest man alive, white, black, yellow or even a slave but he is just like the millions others there in the sight of God. I could go on for pages of what this symbolizes but I wont.

Also Speedhump brings in again the "freedom of speech" bit by saying in the west these things were and are openly reported, although I wont go into how twisted and baised the media is ( by this I mean all media and not just western ) But you have to understand it's more about culture than anything else. Just as same men are from Mars and women are from Venus ( or was it the other way around ) The western culture is from Mars and the Eastern, middleastern and asian culture is from venus. But this does not say the they cannot get along with each other just as men and women can, so can they. Just need to learn and understand each other a little better.

As in eastern culture its more traditional to hide things under the carpet and show your best side to your neighbours. Try to solve a problem within rather than to flaunt it openly. Say, like you wouldn't want your domestic life( fights ) to be turned into a day time soap opera. Also it is seen as embarassing and humiliating. Like in Japanese culture one would rather die than to be publicly shamed or dishounred.

These diffrences in culture are embeded in the society thousands of years old and just because the world has become small through technolgy and communication does not mean there will be one universal culture worldwide. That is also one of the problems everybody is trying to impose their set of values on each other.

Oh my god I think I have rambled on long enough for tonite and have a big trip out into the desert tommorow.

Adios amigos and amigas.

Speedhump wrote:

desertdudeshj wrote:

kanelli wrote:I just love how some people only seem to remember racism on the part of Europeans etc. and they completely ignore the many examples of racism committed by non-whites/non-Europeans through history around the world.

Thats because they are so good at it, and there many more examples of it than others. We don't really have to turn back many pages in history to go back to the time when the black and white issue still exsited in the US. In my own living memory there was the apartheid in South Africa.

Not true at all. Every ethnic conflict worldwide is racist, and there are countless examples, Look at Sudan, Kurdistan, Yugoslavia, Kazahkstan, etc etc etc, and, well, almost the whole of Africa.

Also did you forget that every black slave taken from Africa was sold to the buyer by another black man? Also slave buyers were not only white. Many slaves were still sold to the Middle East long after slavery was abolished in the UK.

Slavery 'existed in all the ancient civilizations of Asia, Africa, Europe, and pre-Columbian America. It had been accepted and even endorsed by Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, as well as other religions of the world.'

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/lewis1.html


In other words racism and slavery was NOT invented by the white man. OK?

So true. But, now the people biased against whites will say that this post must have been written by a white, so go figure...

Snow wrote:

kanelli wrote:I just love how some people only seem to remember racism on the part of Europeans etc. and they completely ignore the many examples of racism committed by non-whites/non-Europeans through history around the world.

Freedom of speech is a right, but it can be abused when people spread misinformation to propagate hatred. I am in favour of free speech but do think a line needs to be drawn sometimes.

In the case of the t-shirt, one can just walk up to him and tell him his shirt is offensive and makes him look like an insensitive idiot. No physical harm is appropriate.

Kanelli...yep...it perfectly describes you. Well-done.

What describes me?

DoubleDigit wrote:American Nazis...

Today America's largest Neo-Nazi group is the National Socialist Movement (NSM).

NSM is a Minneapolis-based hate group known for its Nazi uniforms and open display of explicit Nazi symbols.

In the United States, the Constitutional guarantee for freedom of speech allows political organizations great latitude in expressing Nazi,

racist or anti-Semitic ideology. Due to First Amendment restrictions, the federal government generally cracks down on such organizations only

after members engage in hate crimes and violence.

Other American Anti-Semitic Groups:-

American Nazi Party
Aryan Nations
Aryan Brotherhood
Creativity Movement
Jew Watch
Ku Klux Klan
Libertarian National Socialist Green Party
National Alliance
National Independents Movement
National Socialist Party of America
NSDAP-AO

Stormfront.org
White Aryan Resistance

The fact that there are so many groups I think shows how misguided they are. They are so splintered surely they would never be a threat to tolerance. Also I have no ideas on numbers personally, but I wonder actually how many people belong to these organisations, as a percentage of the American populace? Every country has their extremists and they make a lot of noise, but they are generally a small minority (for example in the UK, they have never even come close to obtaining any real political power).

I do believe that people should be allowed to say what they think, that's how we learn what is wrong and how to combat it. To repress these nasty people would be a crime itself, however unfortunate it is that we have to listen to them. I'm a bit worried about the suggestion in the UK that the small number of misguided Muslims in the UK that have been appearing and protesting when British troops come home from the ME would be banned from protesting. Although they are unwelcome it's wrong to ban them. They are roundly condemned by the main Muslim leaders, surely that's enough.

The fact that they have never been attacked in the past by the pubic is a demonstration of the reason why I think the guy in the swastika t-shirt would have been safe also.

desertdudeshj wrote:Why not ? if its respectfull and no name calling and offending statements are made there should be nothing wrong with it. Agreed, these two subjects can stir up quite a few emotions though.

(long and interesting post snipped)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I agree that discussion of these subjects is perfectly correct here, when undertaken in an intelligent way.

I note you comments about slavery under Islam, and accept that you must know more about it than I do if you have researched the matter in the past. At least today we all agree that claiming legal ownership of another person is wrong, and as world citizens must fight it whenever it appears to be happening. I'm a terrible one for rights, and I even get heavy with people I see abusing staff in shops (usually sweetly smiling Filipinos) !

Do you consider everyone expat are "slave" in terms you mean Navigator ?

Coldwater wrote:Do you consider everyone expat are "slave" in terms you mean Navigator ?

I admit I didn't understand Navigator's post either. Almost all of the companies I deal with in the UAE (and not in the Free Zones) are 51 pct owned by an Emirati, as required under law, but the Emirati only gets a monthly 'salary' to use his name, and he signs a legally binding agrement not to interfere in the running of the business, which is therefore in reality owned by the other shareholders (not often Emirati). So who is the employer/employee there?

In the Free Zones it's even more clear, no Emirati involvement necessary in any company, you own your company yourself.

You can anyway repatriate ALL the profits in either setup.

Reading Navigator's post again, it reads that that all employer/employee relationships anyway come down to owner and slave. A very Marxist way of thinking, and surely outmoded...

beat this ...

haaretz.c o m/hasen/spages/1072466.html

and this...but what's the betting in the end the US will just roll over and ask Israel to tickle its tummy just like always.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072813.html

guess he meant no offence or probably din't know what he was wearing

K-Dog wrote:

kanelli wrote:Well, the Middle East is the only place you can get away with wearing that t-shirt and have people actually approve and cheer you on.

Na. You'd be surprised to visit back country in Alabama and Georgia, Kanelli

And let's not forget the boys in the little white hoods and sheets.