Dubai Forums Dubai Expat Forums Dubai Expat Help Forum

ArifN wrote:Hi and Salaam


I have really made up my mind to leave UK for a few years as totally tired of same routine and weather,

Im 33 ,been in IT for 5 years, currently employed as Network Engineer,(Computer Maintenace of hardware ,software,general networking,Citrix,firewalls etc )

Just wanted to know from any similar expatriates ,how they found the total process over moving,
I will have about £50,000 (325000 dhs) for an apartment,house. etc, would this be enough to buy something near the city??
also what are the status of jobs in IT , is £23-£27K per year achievable?????

any advice,tips,jobs, much appreciated

cheers in advance

Any employers reading??? I will post CV if requested

Chocoholic wrote:I wouldn't bother buying property here, to many unknowns and no security, resale values etc.

aduberdu wrote:well why i asked abt ur passport is coz over here salary depends on the passport u r having wierd hey.....all i can say "Welcom To UAE"........cheers mate

Chocoholic wrote:I wouldn't bother buying property here, to many unknowns and no security, resale values etc.

arniegang wrote:

Chocoholic wrote:I wouldn't bother buying property here, to many unknowns and no security, resale values etc.

I disagree Choc. the UAE and Dubai in particular has passed the point of "no return" regarding the unknowns and security regarding buying property as an investment.

This was being said by all the expats sat in the Dhow and Anchor in the JBH that week in May 2002 when the Shiek announced "freehold". Had they had the foresight to put a deposit down then, they would have made more on that purchase than they would have made salary in 3 years.

I walked into Emaar sales centre and paid 635,000 Dhs for my appartment in the marina back then. I could expect to sell it now for abound 900,000 Dhs.

Choc you need to remember and compare the property situation with say the UK market.

Purchasing a house etc in any country at the wrong time is the gamble. That even applies now in the UK, where prices are now static and the market looks set to tumble slightly. So people who bought here in say 2003/4 when the market was over inflated may find themselves in negative equity this year.

Besides which purchasing for investment is not the same as say a "holiday home". for investment then "thats the gamble". For a holdiay home "well i have a lovely appatment looking over the marina, the sea, Palm Island - i really dont care whether its worth 20 Dhs or 2,000,000Dhs because i am not going to sell it".

As regards "mainrenance fees or management charges". In our complex it has been set at 13Dhs per Sq Ft annually. For that i get proper 24 hour security, a pool, a huge gym, lifts and corridors that get cleaned at least twice a day and the cleanest car park in the universe.

In comparrison to some propery i own in the UK as an investment, on a small 650 sq foot rabbit hutch called a waterfront appartment i pay £1600 maint per year ( about 10,000). and what do i get for this - absolutely nothing!!

I think sometimes, and i mean no dis-respect Choc, expats living in Dubai start to loose touch after a few years, to what the real world is really like back home. Lets put it this way, a young couple on a combined average salary of £50,000 ( 300,000 Dhs) would struggle to be able to afford or purchase a home in any large cosmoploitan city in the UK.

arniegang wrote:Another thing that a lot of "expats" forget, is that someone like me who has puchased property in Dubai, can apply for Residency as an "investor". Now that i have done this i can live there without actually having to work .

Expats who dont own propery have to work to live there -ie "no work - no Dubai".

ArifN wrote:WOW thanks for the useful info,really appreciate that u took time to explain in great detail,
Agree with arniegang about the UK market , I will be selling my two bedroom terrace house to raise some funds for dubai,Im looking at around £55k for it, average price now is £170k for a 4 bedroom,
so what you's are saying that definately got ot have a job firts before im allowed to rent, what about if i start a businesss? should get residency then no doubt,
you want to rent out your apartment arniegang, sounds really good
when is International City being comnpleted??

arniegang wrote:Hi Jag

Respecfully i am going to have to disagree with you on many of the points you raised.

No problem there, always keen to learn more



Firstly i will address the "build quality" issue. I have an Emaar Property in the new district 4 on the marina. I am a property developer and own many properties both in the UK and Dubai. I have to say for what i paid for the property i am absolutely delighted with both the construction of the 5 towers, the way the development has been finished off and best of all the quality of the finsih within my appartment. Marble has been used in the Kitchen and all the electrical appliances are all Zanussi. At the end of the day i have to compare that with what i could expect to pay in the UK for a simialr property. Jag i am affraid to say that the same in the UK would have cost 150% more than i paid.

Definitely, sounds like you did get a good deal! Many people do get good deals, but I also know many people who didnt.. Guess its the luck of the draw. I agree with your comments about the UK market. I wasnt comparing to the UK market, which is well known to be expensive. Definitely you would get a better deal here than in the UK, with the current UK prices..


With regard as to why anyone would want to live in Dubai without working there all i can say is that I dont need to work, i have made my money on the shrewd property investments i have made in the past. I now use my Dubai home basically as a sort of retreat. On the other hand, i would say the majority of expats of all nationalities currently in dubai are only there because they are "working there". without the job the majority of expats could not afford to live there.

Exactly, that was my point! Majority here do need to work But if you pruchase it as a holiday home, then its all good..


People are going to have to get used to the fact that Dubai has "opened up", its niche market and is no longer the bastion of the few priviledged expats who live and work there. There is now a means for other wealthy and successful people like myself to have opportunities. The Royal Family had this vision, because of the uncertainty with regard to the limited life of their oil reserves.

Yep, more people can afford propertly here now, that's for sure.. not just the footballers and celebs..

With regards your views on other properties in other countries such as Canada and Spain i have to again disagree. Investment in property in Spain has now "bottomed out". It has reached its peak to the point that the property sale prices have now levelled out at the "peak". Unless you have bought in the last 4 years there is no longer any profit potential left.

Actually, I had bought in about 7 years ago and am renting it out, so its doing well.. Canada, well that market has witnessed a constuction boom in residential prices and some good money was made there.. and its still going strong.. though condo prices have now dropped.

This indeed has happened here in the UK, where properties "peaked" at the beginning of 2005 and now the market is starting to drop, because the price at the lower range is beyond affordability for young people.

As for Canada and the US, the market is now similar, but the difference being for the majority of us outside North america is that unlike Dubai, no one without a visa is either allowed to work or live there. The situation is totally different in Dubai because market forces dictate that to continue to develop the country the UAE and indeed most of the middle east needs "western technology" because the GCC does not have the skills or knowledge internally. Saudi like the UAE has to buy in specialist skills becasue the "local population" are not able to meet the need.

Finally your points regarding "owning the land" or "freehold" is totally misinformed. Everyone to date has bought their properties with the inclusion of "freehold" built in. Currently there is no Freehold Law in the UAE.

This is being addressed in 2006 by the Government. However as in the UK, "Freehold" has more than one aspect. We have Freehold and Free. Many homeowners in the UK do not OWN their land. Many of us have 999 leases. If you want to argue the fact that we dont own our land then technically you have a point.

But at 999 years it is doubtful on the balance of probability that my childrens, children, children, children,children, children children children childrens children children childrens children will exist. And if i had no children then it has no relevance whatsoever or if my children didnt have any children the same would apply and so on.

Hmm, I didnt know that. I could have sworn that in the UAE, the cap is set at 99 years not 999. Otherwise, yeah 999 is plenty!! Will check again with a government official i know well...

Regards to the residence visa issue for females in certain aspects you are correct. However in the UK the majority of couples ie Man/Wife purchase the property in joint names. It would be quite rare even in the UK for only the wife to have the property in her sol name. This has as much to do with the ability to borrow the money to purchase that property. To obtain a mortgage the Bank will assess both the earnings of the huband/wife etc and lend to according to their income. Therefore the property is mortgaged to both of them jointly.

Therfore in my case, the appartment is JOINTLY owned by me and my wife and therefore sucession does apply. If i were to die then my wife would "inherit" the appartment in dubai and become the "sole owner". She would then be able to apply for residency in her own right as "sole owner".

Hmm, seems to make sense.. just so much confusion over the official rules here yknow.. would be nice if the specified all this stuff when you inquire about buying property and give you all the facts straight up when you are considering buying!

Sometimes i know it is difficult for cultures to appreciate other cultures and to understand the concept of that culture. In the GCC, in difference to the "West", our concept of marriage and the difference between husband and wife are in many ways very very different. For example Westerners have little or no concept of "arranged marriages" and the way man and wife live. In the West, in many cases the woman goes out to work as well as her husband and the bringing up of the family is jointly shared. In many parts of the middle/far east the family concept is totally different. for example: Get married, the mans owns the house and goes to work, and the wife stays at home and has the children and doesnt ever work or own anything - Period.

Heh, yeah different cultures, different situations, totally agree. Some good points being discussed here though, glad I found this thread

Lets hope the property market stabilizes and matures.. similar situation to now happened to Hong Kong in the 80s and it didnt end too well..

Chocoholic wrote:Hm OK some good points raised and no disrespect taken. But I've looked into the propery market here quite a bit, there was a recent big article slating several of the big construction companies for the finishes on their properties, particularly in the Spings/moeadows area and the Greens Community. If you pay 2 million dirhams for a place, the finish better be darn good. Plus some friends who've bought told me they felt like guineapigs as they constantly had problems and applicances were always having to be replaced.

Currently in the UAE constitution no where does it say that expats are allowed to own property. Yes you have it on a leasehold basis, but this obviously causes problems for mortages as banks want deeds to properties, which you can't provide. Plus you know what it's like in this country, if you own the bricks and mortar of a villa for example, but don't own the land, there is absolutely nothing stopping the land owner bulldozing it and slapping up a tower block - of course more revenue for him.

I'm well aware how the house market in the UK differs, having been in it for years and there are some good oppotunities for property buying here, but the basic things you need are still missing.

Good on you if you've had a good experience, many people certainly haven't and have wondered what on earth they've got themselves into. You also have to remember that the guys building here are unskilled cheap labour, everything goes up at a phenomenal rate and you have to wonder how safe it all can be in that respect.

With regard to rents, obviously you expect rents to go up, but in every other market there is a top percentage by which they can go up. Now the landlords excuse that it's inline with international market values is total rubbish. To put someone's rent up by 50 - 100% annually or even six monthly is not good. I think it's good that the authorities have capped it at 15% although this can still be horrendous, not necessarily for westerners who tend to earn more, but what about the lower wage people, how can they afford it?

Plus you also have to remember that in the UAE people don't get annual pay rises to compensate for everything else going up. Take me, I 've been here 2 and a half years, no pay rise, no paid holiday, no flight tickets as yet!

You can't really compare this market to any other as it's a law unto itself.

sniper420 wrote:yes u really did ur homework. gj

sniper420 wrote:Agreed but one has to know the forces of demand and supply to really predict and think ahead i.e you need to have some experience in real estate business to know nitty gritty of buying and selling which I guess you are knowlegable. But one last thing- yah you can never really correctly predict the property prices say like 3 or 5 yrs from now cos the price depends on so many factors of the economy. I guess the expats who didnt invest in the property thought investing in Dubai is risky cos of politically volatile region or thought the property prices have reached it's peak and will fall down. I love the "laissez faire" policy only when I make profit.

arniegang wrote:

sniper420 wrote:Agreed but one has to know the forces of demand and supply to really predict and think ahead i.e you need to have some experience in real estate business to know nitty gritty of buying and selling which I guess you are knowlegable. But one last thing- yah you can never really correctly predict the property prices say like 3 or 5 yrs from now cos the price depends on so many factors of the economy. I guess the expats who didnt invest in the property thought investing in Dubai is risky cos of politically volatile region or thought the property prices have reached it's peak and will fall down. I love the "laissez faire" policy only when I make profit.

I totally agree with you Sniper. But in the UK, we have been buying and selling property for centuries.

The reason i believe the Brit Expats didnt in the main, buy was because they didnt have the foresight or actually had enough money to actually put deposits down.

Its all very well earning 150,000 - 200,00Dhs a year, but it isnt enough to make money on property after deducting living expenses. I can make that on just one deal in the UK.

I truely believe a lot of Expats bad mouth people like me and our properties is because they are to some extent just jealous. I dont mean everyone obviously.

ArifN wrote:In my case arnie it was not having the money at the time to pay the 25% installmens every few months, and then having to wait few years for any return
I was fortunate enough to use the money I had to buy a couple of £15k two bedroom houses, recieving rent straight away and now the value has increased by 400%, probably the same as people like yourself would make on your apartments(deposit amounts), so I missed the boat in dubai but made up in uk,
there are people who are probably jealous ,or just feel unlucky like myself who didnt and dont have the funds for large invetment, but whatever is meant to be will be,
BTW are you living in Dubai or UK ,from the post you always refer to here in UK so assumd you are here(uk),
what you think for house market in 2006 in uk???

arniegang wrote:Hi Jag

Good debate i agree with you. With regards the 99 year lease you mentioned, yes that was the case back before May 2002. Emaar's first phase which is the 5 towers on Marina Walk, Murjan Maesk etc were all sold initially on a 99 year lease.

People like myself walked in the sales centre and then very quickly walked out again. I believe the Shiek changed his mind because he soon realised that Westerner's would never consider purchasing property's on a 99 year lease.

I agree with you about Canada, i have a friend who bought in Whistler 5 years ago and has done really well with regard to rentals and increase in value. However, i thought you were referring to now, and now i believe the time is right in Dubai.

However, in saying this as in all property market booms what goes up will always eventually come down. I predict the market will slow down in late 2007, when the number of properties released/completed will flood the market with "re-sales". I also believe eventually supply will outstrip demand, it will be then that rents will in all probability drop substantially as investors will be competeing to rent out their properties.

I think there is very little time left now to make any money with property in Dubai , as i think we have passed the time between purchasing off plan and completion. People considering buying now for "investment" may possibly be dissappointed.

Jag, overall i think much confussion arises because there is a "grape vine" amonst the expats. I really do believe there is a level of reluctance to accept that Dubai has now "opened its doors". 3/4 years ago Dubai belonged to the elite group of expats, the rest of us had to pay £200 a night upwards. This will be no longer be the case very shortly.

Another reason i believe is there is a growing number of "private developers", and this has led to the introduction of "cowboys". The contracts are loosly worded and the finsih may not be what was advertised in the sales brochures. This was the sole reason i choose to buy my property through Emaar. Their contracts for sale are based on the English system and are very clear and legally watertight. I cannot speak for other developers.