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بديع السموت والأرض أنى يكون له ولد ولم تكن
له صحبة وخلق كل شيء وهو بكل شيء عليم

BadeeAAu alssamawati waal-ardi anna yakoonu lahu waladun walam takun lahu sahibatun wakhalaqa kulla shay-in wahuwa bikulli shay-in AAaleemun

6.101 Originator (of) the heavens and the earth, that He has certainly been his Son, and not to be certainly his companion, and He created every thing that He will, and He on account of every thing that he will who knows.


According to this ayah, the Son (i.e. Jesus Christ) is shown to have created the heavens and the earth.

Bravo, you are at it again....

lets try again by putting some sense in that thick head of urs

006.101
YUSUFALI: To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: How can He have a son when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things.

PICKTHAL: The Originator of the heavens and the earth! How can He have a child, when there is for Him no consort, when He created all things and is Aware of all things?

SHAKIR: Wonderful Originator of the heavens and the earth! How could He have a son when He has no consort, and He (Himself) created everything, and He is the Knower of all things.

my reference : http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/006.qmt.html :

three different translators have translated this ayah..... yet none of them claim what you are claiming ..... where exactly did you get your linguistics degree from?

[/b]

outworldish wrote:Bravo, you are at it again....

lets try again by putting some sense in that thick head of urs

006.101
YUSUFALI: To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: How can He have a son when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things.

PICKTHAL: The Originator of the heavens and the earth! How can He have a child, when there is for Him no consort, when He created all things and is Aware of all things?

SHAKIR: Wonderful Originator of the heavens and the earth! How could He have a son when He has no consort, and He (Himself) created everything, and He is the Knower of all things.

my reference : http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/006.qmt.html :

three different translators have translated this ayah..... yet none of them claim what you are claiming ..... where exactly did you get your linguistics degree from?

[/b]

Where is the Arabic exegesis...or...are you ashamed of the Arabic...?


P.S.

Resorting to name calling will not help your case...

Apple Pie - you are arguing that the Quran is true - excellent.

We should indeed follow the Quran's teachings.

(I think it is a strange way to go about extolling the virtues of the Quran and Islam, but hey - if that is how you want to attract people to Islam - who am I to argue?)

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Apple Pie - you are arguing that the Quran is true - excellent.

We should indeed follow the Quran's teachings.

(I think it is a strange way to go about extolling the virtues of the Quran and Islam, but hey - if that is how you want to attract people to Islam - who am I to argue?)

Cheers,
Shafique

Thanks for agreeing that the Koran proclaims Jesus Christ as creator of the Universe...


Cheers!

All,

It has to be troubling for followers of Islam when they realize that the Koran never once has "allah" claiming, in the first-person singular, that he created anything.

"allah" never once makes this claim himself.

Where does the Koran ever say anything like..."I, "allah" created..."

It never does.

This fact alone should be a cause for concern....as its absence makes the Koran not the word of the true creator of the Universe...

You make a good point Apple Pie - people should read the Quran and see what it says about who created the universe.

May Allah bless you in your efforts to bring people to Islam.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:You make a good point Apple Pie - people should read the Quran and see what it says about who created the universe.

May Allah bless you in your efforts to bring people to Islam.

Cheers,
Shafique

As you can witness for yourself, "allah" never once states that he created the universe.....thus, he cannot possibly be the true creator God of the Universe.

Apple Pie wrote:As you can witness for yourself, "allah" never once states that he created the universe.....thus, he cannot possibly be the true creator God of the Universe.

This is an inspired tactic Apple Pie - it will encourage people to read the Quran and look into this issue.

May Allah bless you in this effort.

cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:

Apple Pie wrote:As you can witness for yourself, "allah" never once states that he created the universe.....thus, he cannot possibly be the true creator God of the Universe.

This is an inspired tactic Apple Pie - it will encourage people to read the Quran and look into this issue.

May Allah bless you in this effort.

cheers,
Shafique

The most amazing part of this is that while the god "allah" never once states that he created anything in the first person, in the Koran, Jesus Christ does...!

Now...how is this possible?

Apple Pie - now people will have to read the whole Quran looking for all the instances that say Allah created the universe. You are doing the world a great service - keep up the good work.

Cheers,
Shafique

edited

shafique wrote:Apple Pie - now people will have to read the whole Quran looking for all the instances that say Allah created the universe. You are doing the world a great service - keep up the good work.

Cheers,
Shafique

It would be great if people would do that instead of blindly following Islam.

However, as we both know most people will not do that - especially followers of Islam, for if they ever did, they would no longer be Muslim...

Apple Pie wrote:It would be great if people would do that instead of blindly following Islam.

Totally agree - people should only follow Islam because it makes sense when one investigates all of its claims about religion.

Can I suggest you do another thread where you state that the Bible is better than the Quran, so as to encourage people to compare and contrast.

cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:

Apple Pie wrote:It would be great if people would do that instead of blindly following Islam.

Totally agree - people should only follow Islam because it makes sense when one investigates all of its claims about religion.

Fact is, Islam does not make sense.

Islam fails to follow its own book of faith.

Can I suggest you do another thread where you state that the Bible is better than the Quran, so as to encourage people to compare and contrast.

cheers,
Shafique

Sure thing...

The Creation of Heaven and Earth

60. Who has created the heavens and the earth, and Who sends down for you water from the sky? Yea, with it We cause to grow well-planted orchards full of beauty and delight: it never has been yours to cause to grow. Could there be another god besides Allah? Nay, but they are people who swerve from justice.

61. Or, Who has made the earth firm to live in, and placed rivers in its folds, and set upon it immovable mountains, and made a barrier between the two seas (fresh and salt waters)? Could there be another god besides Allah? Nay, most of them know not.

62. Or, Who answers the one distressed when he calls unto Him, and Who relieves the harm, and makes you (mankind) inheritors of the earth? Could there be another god besides Allah? Little do they reflect!

63. Or, Who guides you through the depths of darkness in the land and the sea, and Who sends the winds as heralds of His Mercy? Could there be another god besides Allah? High is Allah above what they ascribe to Him!

64. Or, Who originates creation, then repeats it, and Who gives you sustenance from heaven and earth? Could there be another god besides Allah? Say, " Bring your proof, if you are truthful!"

65. Say: None in the heavens or on earth, except Allah, knows what is hidden. Nor are they able to perceive when they shall be resurrected (for Judgment).

(Qur'an 27:60-65)

9. Allah is He Who sends the winds which push up the clouds. Then He leads them unto a dead land and revive therewith the earth after its death. Such is the Resurrection!

(Qur'an 35:9)

27. Have they not seen that Allah causes water to fall from the sky? Then with it We produce fruit of various colours; and among the hills are streaks white and red, and of various colours, and (others) of raven-black.

28. And so amongst men and beasts and cattle, in like manner, various colours. Verily those who truly fear Allah, among His Servants, are those endued with knowledge, and Allah is Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving.

(Qur'an 35:27-28)

65. Allah sends down water from the sky and therewith revives the earth after its death. Verily in this is a sign for those who listen.

(Qur'an 16:65)

6. Have they not then observed the sky above them, how We have constructed it and beautified it, and how there are no rifts in it?

7. And We have spread out the earth, and have flung firm hills therein, and have caused every lovely thing to grow thereon (in pairs).

8. A vision and a reminder for every repentant servant.

9. And We send down from the sky blessed water whereby We give growth unto gardens and the grain of crops,

10. And lofty date-palms with ranged clusters.

11. Provision (made) for (Allah's) Servants; and therewith We quicken a dead land. Like so will be the resurrection of the dead.

(Qur'an 50:6-11)

2. Allah is He Who raised the heavens without pillars that you can see, then mounted the Throne, and compelled the sun and the moon to be of service (to his Law)! Each runs (its course) unto an appointed term. He regulates all affairs, explaining the revelations, that you may be certain of the meeting with your Lord.

3. And Allah is He who spread out the earth and placed therein firm hills and flowing streams, and of all fruits He placed therein two spouses (male and female). He covered the night with day. Behold! Herein verily are signs for people who take thought.

4. And in the Earth are neighbouring tracts, vineyard and ploughed lands, and palm trees, like and unlike, watered with one water (the same water). And We have made some of them to excel others in fruit. Behold! Herein verily are signs for people who have sense.

(Qur'an 13:2-4)

The Creation of Mankind
12. Verily We created man from a product of wet earth (clay).

13. Then placed him as a drop (of sperm) in a safe lodging.

14. Then We fashioned the drop into a clot, then We fashioned the clot into a little lump, then We fashioned the little lump into bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators!

15. Then Behold! After that you surely will die.

16. Then, on the Day of Resurrection you will be raised (again).

(Qur'an 23:12-16)

78. And Allah brought you forth from the wombs of your mothers knowing nothing, and gave you hearing and sight and hearts that you might give thanks.

(Qur'an 16:78)

19. He brings forth the living from the dead, and He brings forth the dead from the living, and He revives the earth after its death. And like so you will be brought forth (from death).

20. And of His Signs is this: He created you from dust, and then, behold you are human beings, ranging widely!

21. And of His Signs is this: He created for you mates from yourselves that you might find rest in them, and He ordained between you love and mercy. Behold! Herein indeed are Signs for those who reflect.

22. And of His Signs are the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the variations of your languages and colours. Behold! Herein indeed are signs for those who know.

23. And of His Signs is your sleep by night and by day, and your seeking of His Bounty. Behold! Herein indeed are signs for those who heed.

24. And of His Signs is this: He shows you the lightning for fear and for hope, and sends down water from the sky, and thereby revives the earth after its death. Behold! Herein indeed are signs for those who understand.

hifriend223 wrote:The Creation of Heaven and Earth

60. Who has created the heavens and the earth, and Who sends down for you water from the sky? Yea, with it We cause to grow well-planted orchards full of beauty and delight: it never has been yours to cause to grow. Could there be another god besides Allah? Nay, but they are people who swerve from justice.

61. Or, Who has made the earth firm to live in, and placed rivers in its folds, and set upon it immovable mountains, and made a barrier between the two seas (fresh and salt waters)? Could there be another god besides Allah? Nay, most of them know not.

62. Or, Who answers the one distressed when he calls unto Him, and Who relieves the harm, and makes you (mankind) inheritors of the earth? Could there be another god besides Allah? Little do they reflect!

63. Or, Who guides you through the depths of darkness in the land and the sea, and Who sends the winds as heralds of His Mercy? Could there be another god besides Allah? High is Allah above what they ascribe to Him!

64. Or, Who originates creation, then repeats it, and Who gives you sustenance from heaven and earth? Could there be another god besides Allah? Say, " Bring your proof, if you are truthful!"

65. Say: None in the heavens or on earth, except Allah, knows what is hidden. Nor are they able to perceive when they shall be resurrected (for Judgment).

(Qur'an 27:60-65)

9. Allah is He Who sends the winds which push up the clouds. Then He leads them unto a dead land and revive therewith the earth after its death. Such is the Resurrection!

(Qur'an 35:9)

27. Have they not seen that Allah causes water to fall from the sky? Then with it We produce fruit of various colours; and among the hills are streaks white and red, and of various colours, and (others) of raven-black.

28. And so amongst men and beasts and cattle, in like manner, various colours. Verily those who truly fear Allah, among His Servants, are those endued with knowledge, and Allah is Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving.

(Qur'an 35:27-28)

65. Allah sends down water from the sky and therewith revives the earth after its death. Verily in this is a sign for those who listen.

(Qur'an 16:65)

6. Have they not then observed the sky above them, how We have constructed it and beautified it, and how there are no rifts in it?

7. And We have spread out the earth, and have flung firm hills therein, and have caused every lovely thing to grow thereon (in pairs).

8. A vision and a reminder for every repentant servant.

9. And We send down from the sky blessed water whereby We give growth unto gardens and the grain of crops,

10. And lofty date-palms with ranged clusters.

11. Provision (made) for (Allah's) Servants; and therewith We quicken a dead land. Like so will be the resurrection of the dead.

(Qur'an 50:6-11)

2. Allah is He Who raised the heavens without pillars that you can see, then mounted the Throne, and compelled the sun and the moon to be of service (to his Law)! Each runs (its course) unto an appointed term. He regulates all affairs, explaining the revelations, that you may be certain of the meeting with your Lord.

3. And Allah is He who spread out the earth and placed therein firm hills and flowing streams, and of all fruits He placed therein two spouses (male and female). He covered the night with day. Behold! Herein verily are signs for people who take thought.

4. And in the Earth are neighbouring tracts, vineyard and ploughed lands, and palm trees, like and unlike, watered with one water (the same water). And We have made some of them to excel others in fruit. Behold! Herein verily are signs for people who have sense.

(Qur'an 13:2-4)

The Creation of Mankind
12. Verily We created man from a product of wet earth (clay).

13. Then placed him as a drop (of sperm) in a safe lodging.

14. Then We fashioned the drop into a clot, then We fashioned the clot into a little lump, then We fashioned the little lump into bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators!

15. Then Behold! After that you surely will die.

16. Then, on the Day of Resurrection you will be raised (again).

(Qur'an 23:12-16)

78. And Allah brought you forth from the wombs of your mothers knowing nothing, and gave you hearing and sight and hearts that you might give thanks.

(Qur'an 16:78)

19. He brings forth the living from the dead, and He brings forth the dead from the living, and He revives the earth after its death. And like so you will be brought forth (from death).

20. And of His Signs is this: He created you from dust, and then, behold you are human beings, ranging widely!

21. And of His Signs is this: He created for you mates from yourselves that you might find rest in them, and He ordained between you love and mercy. Behold! Herein indeed are Signs for those who reflect.

22. And of His Signs are the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the variations of your languages and colours. Behold! Herein indeed are signs for those who know.

23. And of His Signs is your sleep by night and by day, and your seeking of His Bounty. Behold! Herein indeed are signs for those who heed.

24. And of His Signs is this: He shows you the lightning for fear and for hope, and sends down water from the sky, and thereby revives the earth after its death. Behold! Herein indeed are signs for those who understand.

None of your googled ayahs states, in the first person singular, that "allah" created anything.

Why is this...?

Is the god ""allah" not big enough to make this bold statement himself...?

In fact, he obviously needs help, as "we" created this...proving that "allah" is not alone, and requires assistance...

"And that there is none other God but one." [1 Corinthians 8:4]

It is from the bible.

"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only." [Quran 112:1]

This is from the Quran.

Which faith / Religion do you follow again?

outworldish wrote:"And that there is none other God but one." [1 Corinthians 8:4]

It is from the bible.

"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only." [Quran 112:1]

This is from the Quran.

Which faith / Religion do you follow again?

Jesus is the one God in both the Holy Bible and in the Koran.

Apple Pie wrote:

outworldish wrote:"And that there is none other God but one." [1 Corinthians 8:4]

It is from the bible.

"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only." [Quran 112:1]

This is from the Quran.

Which faith / Religion do you follow again?

Jesus is the one God in both the Holy Bible and in the Koran.

"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten
And there is none like unto Him"

[Quran 112:1-4]

Since you say they are the same. What about the above verses that says god can not be begotten or cannot beget. There is none like him, meaning he cannot be Human for one. He is absolute and eternal meaning he cannot die.

And since refering from the bible you say jesus is the Son of god....

Now how is it that you say "Jesus is the one God in both the Holy Bible and in the Koran"

outworldish wrote:

Apple Pie wrote:

outworldish wrote:"And that there is none other God but one." [1 Corinthians 8:4]

It is from the bible.

"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only." [Quran 112:1]

This is from the Quran.

Which faith / Religion do you follow again?

Jesus is the one God in both the Holy Bible and in the Koran.

"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten
And there is none like unto Him"

[Quran 112:1-4]

Since you say they are the same. What about the above verses that says god can not be begotten or cannot beget. There is none like him, meaning he cannot be Human for one. He is absolute and eternal meaning he cannot die.

And since refering from the bible you say jesus is the Son of god....

Now how is it that you say "Jesus is the one God in both the Holy Bible and in the Koran"

Islam 101...and we have already been over these Islamic one-hit-wonders.

All of the verbs in this sura are in the imperfect tense (i.e. incomplete action)...which never denies that a Son existed in the past...and, as we have seen, the authors of the Koran plainly state that Jesus Christ is the Son.

I feel like an idiot cause i am arguing with an Idiot.

Adios Jackass

outworldish wrote:I feel like an idiot cause i am arguing with an Idiot.

Adios Jackass

Please control your rage...

Thanks...

Muslims believe Jesus, pbuh (peace be upon Him), is one of the greatest Prophets of God, who performed many miracles through the will of Allah, swt. We also believe in His virgin birth, but not in His divinity as Christians do. He was sent by God to the the Jews who had deviated from the teachings of Moses, pbuh. Jesus, pbuh, was sent to confirm what the Prophets before Him had taught, as He says in the Bible, He did not come to change the law, but to fullfill it. We do believe in the original Gospel (Injeel in arabic), given to Jesus, pbuh, but we do not believe the 4 Gospels found in the Bible is that message. We do not believe He was crucified either. We believe He was saved from that and never died. We believe He was taken up by God, is still alive and will come again. We also believe He came to tell us of another, final Prophet to come, and we believe this can also be found in the bible. I will give you the verses from both the Qur'an and Bible:

“And (remember) when Jesus of Mary said: ‘O Children of Israel! Indeed I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Torah (which came) before me, and giving glad tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad![2] But when he came to them with clear proofs, they say: This is mere magic.” [Qur’an 61:6]

18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. (Deut. 18:18-19)

There are more biblical verses as well and I'll post them here if you wish. I just wanted to give you an example

hifriend223 wrote:
“And (remember) when Jesus of Mary said: ‘O Children of Israel! Indeed I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Torah (which came) before me, and giving glad tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad![2] But when he came to them with clear proofs, they say: This is mere magic.” [Qur’an 61:6]

Who is Ahmad?


There is much confusion over the term “Ahmad” as it makes its solo appearance in sura 61.

Many Muslims take the stance that it refers to the foretelling of the coming of Islam’s prophet “Muhammad”. Many Christians take the position that it refers to the coming of the Holy Spirit.


The truth is that it is neither of these.


The answer is much more startling than either side appears to be aware of – and can be found by a careful exegete of the scriptures.



Let’s begin by reviewing the classic definition for the term…

أحمد = “ahmadu”

“ahmadu” definition:

He (a man), came to a state, or result, such as was praised, or commended, or approved; properly, his affair, or case, came to such a state or result; or he did or said, that for which he should be praised, or commended; or that which was praiseworthy, or commendable.

It comes from the root “hamida”, which means he praised, eulogized, or commended him; spoke well of him; mentioned him with approbation; sometimes because of favor received. Also implies admiration; and it implies the magnifying, or honoring, of the object thereof; and lowliness, humility, or submissiveness, in the person who offers it. He declared the praises of God or he praised God much with good forms of praise.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume two, pp. 638 – 640
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 135 - 136
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 38
Concordance of the Koran, Gustav Flugel, p. 56


Thus, from the classic definition, just like the participle “Muhammad”; we are told that “ahmad” is in reference to a man, and that this man is praised or is worthy of praise.



Let’s uncover who this praiseworthy man really is.


Consider these passages from the Gospel of Luke…


Luke 1.13 -17

But the angel said to him, Do not fear, Zacharias, because your prayer was heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear a son to you, and you shall call his name John. And he will be joy and exultation to you, and many will rejoice over his birth. For he shall be great in the eyes of the Lord, and he shall not drink wine or strong drink. And he will be filled of the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb.

And he will turn many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God. And he will go out before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah "to turn the hearts of fathers to their children," and disobedient ones to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people having been prepared for the Lord. (Mal. 4.5, 6)


Luke 1.63 - 80

And asking for a writing tablet, he wrote, saying, John is his name. And all marveled. And instantly his mouth was opened and his tongue loosed, and he spoke, blessing God. And fear came on all those living around them. And in all the hill country of Judea all these things were talked about. And all who heard laid them up in their hearts, saying, What then will this child be? And the hand of the Lord was with him. And his father Zacharias was filled of the Holy Spirit and prophesied, saying, Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel, because He visited and worked redemption for His people. And He raised up a Horn of salvation for us in the house of His servant David; even as He spoke through the mouth of His holy prophets from the age before: Salvation from ones hostile to us, and from the hand of all the ones hostile to us, to execute mercy with our fathers, and to remember His holy covenant, the oath which He swore to our father Abraham, to give to us, that we being delivered out of the hand of those hostile to us, in order to serve Him without fear, in consecration and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

And you, child, will be called Prophet of the Most High, for you will go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways, (Mal. 3.1)

to give a knowledge of salvation to His people by remission of their sins, through the tender heart of mercy of our God, in which the Dayspring from on high will visit us, to appear to those sitting in darkness and in shadow of death, to direct our feet into the way of peace. (Isa. 9:2) And the child grew, and became strong in spirit. And he was in deserted places until the day of his showing to Israel.



Luke 3.2 - 16

Upon the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the Word of God came on John the son of Zacharias in the desert. And he came into the neighborhood of the Jordan proclaiming a baptism of repentance for remission of sins, as it has been written in the scroll of the Words of Isaiah the prophet, saying:

"The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare the way of the Lord, make His paths straight.”

“Every valley shall be filled up, and every mountain and hill shall be made low; and the crooked places shall be made into straight, and the rough into smooth ways;" "and all flesh shall see the salvation of God."( Isaiah 40.3-5) Then he said to the crowds going out to be baptized by him, Offspring of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Then bring forth fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say within yourselves, We have Abraham as father. For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham out of these stones. And also the axe is already laid to the root of the trees; therefore, every tree not producing good fruit is being cut down and being thrown into the fire. And the crowd asked him, saying, What then shall we do? And answering, he said to them, The one that has two tunics, let him give to him that has not. And the one that has food, let him do the same. And tax collectors also came to be baptized. And they said to him, Teacher, what shall we do? And he said to them, Continue to do no more than that commanded to you. And also ones serving as soldiers asked him, saying, And we, what shall we do? And he said to them, Do not shake violently anyone nor accuse falsely, and be satisfied with your wages. But the people were expecting, and all reasoning in their hearts about John, lest perhaps he is the Christ, John answered all, saying, I indeed baptize you with water; but He stronger than I comes, of whom I am not fit to loosen the thong of His sandals. He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit and fire,




Luke 7.22 - 33

And answering, Jesus said to them, Going, report to John what you saw and heard; that blind ones are seeing again, lame ones are walking about, leprous ones are being cleansed, deaf ones are hearing, dead ones are being raised, poor ones are preached the Gospel. (Isa. 35:5, 6; 61:1) And blessed is he who is not offended in Me. And John's messengers going away, He began to speak to the crowds about John: What did you go out to the deserted places to see? A reed being shaken by the wind? But what did you go out to see? A man who had been dressed in soft clothing? Behold, those in splendid clothing and being in luxury are in king's palaces. But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I say to you, Even more than a prophet.

This is he about whom it has been written:

"Behold, I send My messenger" before Your face, who "will prepare Your way before You." (Mal. 3.1)

For I say to you, among those born of a woman, no prophet is greater than John the Baptist. But the least one in the kingdom of God is greater than he is. And all the people and the tax collectors hearing, they justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and the lawyers set aside God's counsel as to themselves, not being baptized by him. And the Lord said, Then to what shall I compare the men of this generation? And to what are they like? They are like children sitting in a market and calling to one another, and saying, We piped to you, and you did not dance; we mourned to you, and you did not weep. For John the Baptist has come neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, He has a demon.



Luke 11.15 - 20

But some of them said, He casts out the demons by Beelzebub the chief of the demons. And tempting Him, others were seeking a miraculous sign from Heaven from Him. But knowing their thoughts, He said to them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to ruin, and a house against a house falls. And also if Satan is divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? Because you say I cast out the demons by Beelzebub. And if I cast out the demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Because of this they shall be your judges. But if I cast out the demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.



Compare to…


وإذ قال عيسى ابن مريم يبني إسرءيل إني
رسول الله إليكم مصدقا لما بين يدي من التورية
ومبشرا برسول يأتي من بعدي اسمه أحمد فلما
جاءهم بالبينت قالوا هذا سحر مبين

Wa-ith qala AAeesa ibnu maryama ya banee isra-eela innee rasoolu Allahi ilaykum musaddiqan lima bayna yadayya mina alttawrati wamubashshiran birasoolin ya/tee min baAAdee ismuhu ahmadu falamma jaahum bialbayyinati qaloo hatha sihrun mubeenun

61.6 And when Jesus, Mary's son, said: “My son’s of Israel, I came, “allah's” messenger to you; fulfilling the truth altogether manifest before, from the scriptures of the Jews and Christians; and one who rejoices another on account of a messenger; He comes from after thee, His name should be praised.” So when He came to them on account of the manifest evidences, they said: “He obviously allies himself to the devil.”



61.6 paraphrases Jesus’ quote from Malachi, which pertains to John the Baptist preparing the way for Him, as recorded in the Biblical Gospels.


Let’s summarize exactly what is being stated in 61.6…

• Jesus quotes from the Old Testament (alttawrati).

• Jesus is quoted as saying that He, Himself came (innee) as the one spoken of from BOTH the OT (alttawrati); AND from the one who rejoices another (mubashshiran).

• Observe that the text specifically stresses two vantage points that Jesus Himself fulfills and confirms as truth:

1) Before, from the OT (alttawrati).

&

2) After, from the one who rejoices Him (mubashshiran...i.e. John the Baptist).


• Jesus proclaims that He fulfills both the OT scripture, & that of John the Baptist’ proclamation of Him.

• The one who rejoices another (wamubashshiran…i.e. John the Baptist) appears in only three Koranic locations (34.45, 48.8, & 61.6) and refers to this praiseworthy man (i.e Jesus). Observe that the two other locations are in the context of “Muhammad” (i.e. Jesus).

• Further, the one who rejoices does so on account of a “messenger” (birasoolin).

• We are told that this “messenger” is a man that comes (ya/tee) from after thee (baAAdee).

• This “messenger’s” name (ismuhu) is worthy of praise (ahmadu). Thus, just like the participle “Muhammad”, “ahmadu” refers to a man that is praised as deity.

• The implication of Jesus’ statement in the Koran is profound, as He is proclaiming that He is the Lord that John the Baptist has prepared the way for. Jesus is claiming to be God Almighty in this ayah!

• The sequence marker “fa” (signifying cause & effect), then connects what we were just told regarding Jesus’ fulfillment of the scriptures, to His reception by some of the people – who though that He allied Himself to the devil.



Observe this Koranic quote from Jesus, which borrows the same phraseology as that of 61.6 – confirming that Jesus is the subject spoken of as “Ahmad”, and also confirming His deity…


ومصدقا لما بين يدي من التورية ولأحل لكم
بعض الذي حرم عليكم وجئتكم باية من ربكم
فاتقوا الله وأطيعون

Wamusaddiqan lima bayna yadayya mina alttawrati wali-ohilla lakum baAAda allathee hurrima AAalaykum waji/tukum bi-ayatin min rabbikum faittaqoo Allaha waateeAAooni

3.50 "And fulfilling the truth altogether manifest before, from the scriptures of the Jews and Christians; and by it has been made lawful by your portion (of) which is forbidden to you, and I came to you on account of an apparent sign from your Lord, so you take as a shield “allah”, and obey me!"


More on John the Baptist…



When John the Baptist’ name is called-out in the Koran it is always in the context of Jesus Christ:

John the Baptist: 3.38-40, 6.85-86, 19.7-15, 21.90

Thus, it should come as no surprise to discover that John the Baptist’ attributes are also intertwined in the context of the Koranic passages that describe “Muhammad” & “Ahmad” (i.e. Jesus Christ), as John is blazing the path for Jesus - such it is with the two other ayahs that utilize the participle “wamubashshiran” as found in 61.6…


إنا أرسلنك شهدا ومبشرا ونذيرا

Inna arsalnaka shahidan wamubashshiran wanatheeran

48.8 Certainly we sent as a witness, and one who rejoices another, and a warner.

This passage is one of several that describe John the Baptist, in an ayah that culminates with the mentioning of “Muhammad” (i.e. Jesus Christ).




Compare to this nearly verbatim ayah…



يأيها النبي إنا أرسلنك شهدا ومبشرا ونذيرا

Ya ayyuha alnnabiyyu inna arsalnaka shahidan wamubashshiran wanatheeran

33.45 O! you the prophet, certainly we sent as a witness, and one who rejoices another, and a warner.


This ayah builds upon 48.8 by adding the detail that John the Baptist is also a Prophet – as told to us by Jesus in the Gospels.

Further, this ayah comes on the heels of the mentioning of “Muhammad” (i.e. Jesus Christ) in 33.40.


Observe the parallels:


Luke

• Jesus quotes from what has been written
• Jesus fulfills the scriptures
• John the Baptist rejoices the coming of Jesus Christ
• John is declared to be a Prophet
• John prepares the way of the Lord coming after him
• People say Jesus allies Himself with Beelzebub
• Jesus is God



61.6

• Jesus quotes from the OT
• Jesus fulfills the scriptures
• One witness is rejoicing on account of a messenger that is to come after him
• The one coming after him is praised as deity
• The witness is declared to be a Prophet
• People say Jesus allies Himself to the devil
• Jesus is God




Bottom line…

John the Baptist blazes the trail for Jesus Christ.


“Muhammad” = “Ahmad” = Jesus Christ

apple pie : you are among those " even if jesus himself descend and testify that he is not god nor the son of god but a messenger", you will call him a lier.

outworldish wrote:apple pie : you are among those " even if jesus himself descend and testify that he is not god nor the son of god but a messenger", you will call him a lier.

Even the authors of the Koran state that Jesus is God.

Are you calling them liars?

Muslims believe Jesus, pbuh (peace be upon Him), is one of the greatest Prophets of God...

Muslims believe that Allah the Almighty, Who is the Maker of the universe and of all beings in it, created the universe for very significant purposes. Qur’an informs this as follows:

Al-Anbiya :
16 وَمَا خَلَقْنَا السَّمَاءَ وَالْأَرْضَ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا لَاعِبِينَ
Transliteration 16: Wama khalaqna alssamaa waalarda wama baynahuma laAAibeena

Yusuf Ali 16: Not for (idle) sport did We create the heavens and the earth and all that is between!

Shakir 16: And We did not create the heaven and the earth and what is between them for sport.

Pickthal 16: We created not the heaven and the earth and all that is between them in play.

M. Khan 16: We created not the heavens and the earth and all that is between them for a (mere) play .

French 16: Ce n'est pas par jeu que Nous avons créé le ciel et la terre et ce qui est entre eux.

Spanish 16: No creamos el cielo, la tierra y lo que entre ellos hay para pasar el rato.

Indonesian 16: Dan tidaklah Kami ciptakan langit dan bumi dan segala yang ada di antara keduanya dengan bermain-main.

Melayu 16: Dan (ingatlah) tidaklah Kami menciptakan langit dan bumi serta segala yang ada di antaranya, secara main-main.

German 16: Und Wir erschufen Himmel und Erde und das, was zwischen beiden ist, nicht zum Spiel.

Russian 16: Мы не создали небо, землю и все, что между ними, забавляясь.

Bosnian 16: Mi nismo stvorili nebo i Zemlju, i ono što je između njih, da se zabavljamo.

Urdu 16: اور ہم نے آسمان اور زمین کو اورجو کچھ ان کے بیچ میں ہے کھیلتے ہوئے نہیں بنایا

Sad (38:27)
27 وَمَا خَلَقْنَا السَّمَاءَ وَالْأَرْضَ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا بَاطِلًا ذَلِكَ ظَنُّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا فَوَيْلٌ لِّلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنَ النَّارِ

Transliteration 27: Wama khalaqna alssamaa waalarda wama baynahuma batilan thalika thannu allatheena kafaroo fawaylun lillatheena kafaroo mina alnnari

Yusuf Ali 27: Not without purpose did We create heaven and earth and all between! that were the thought of Unbelievers! but woe to the Unbelievers because of the Fire (of Hell)!

Shakir 27: And We did not create the heaven and the earth and what is between them in vain; that is the opinion of those who disbelieve then woe to those who disbelieve on account of the fire.

Pickthal 27: And We created not the heaven and the earth and all that is between them in vain. That is the opinion of those who disbelieve. And woe unto those who disbelieve, from the Fire!

M. Khan 27: And We created not the heaven and the earth and all that is between them without purpose! That is the consideration of those who disbelieve! Then woe to those who disbelieve (in Islamic Monotheism) from the Fire!

French 27: Nous n'avons pas créé le ciel et la terre et ce qui existe entre eux en vain. C'est ce que pensent ceux qui ont mécru. Malheur à ceux qui ont mécru pour le feu [qui les attend]!

Spanish 27: No hemos creado en vano el cielo, la tierra y lo que entre ellos está. Así piensan los infieles. Y ¡ay de los infieles, por el Fuego...!

Indonesian 27: Dan Kami tidak menciptakan langit dan bumi dan apa yang ada antara keduanya tanpa hikmah. Yang demikian itu adalah anggapan orang-orang kafir, maka celakalah orang-orang kafir itu karena mereka akan masuk neraka.

Melayu 27: Dan tiadalah Kami menciptakan langit dan bumi serta segala yang ada di antara keduanya sebagai ciptaan yang tidak mengandungi hikmah dan keadilan; yang demikian adalah sangkaan orang-orang yang kafir! Maka kecelakaanlah bagi orang-orang yang kafir itu dari azab Neraka.

German 27: "Und Wir haben den Himmel und die Erde und das, was zwischen beiden ist, nicht sinnlos erschaffen. Das ist die Ansicht derer, die ungläubig sind. Wehe denn den Ungläubigen wegen des Feuers!

Russian 27: Мы не создали небо и землю и то, что между ними, понапрасну. Так думают только те, которые не веруют. Горе же тем, которые не веруют, от Огня!

Bosnian 27: Mi nismo uzalud stvorili nebo i Zemlju i ono što je između njih; tako misle nevjernici, pa teško nevjernicima kad budu u vatri!

Urdu 27: اور ہم نے آسمان اور زمین کو اور جو کچھ ان کے بیچ میں ہے بیکار تو پیدا نہیں کیا یہ تو ان کا خیال ہے جو کافر ہیں پھرکافروں کے لیے ہلاکت ہے جو آگ ہے

hifriend223 wrote:Muslims believe Jesus, pbuh (peace be upon Him), is one of the greatest Prophets of God...

Muslims believe that Allah the Almighty, Who is the Maker of the universe and of all beings in it, created the universe for very significant purposes. Qur’an informs this as follows:

Al-Anbiya :
16 وَمَا خَلَقْنَا السَّمَاءَ وَالْأَرْضَ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا لَاعِبِينَ
Transliteration 16: Wama khalaqna alssamaa waalarda wama baynahuma laAAibeena

Yusuf Ali 16: Not for (idle) sport did We create the heavens and the earth and all that is between!

Shakir 16: And We did not create the heaven and the earth and what is between them for sport.

Pickthal 16: We created not the heaven and the earth and all that is between them in play.

M. Khan 16: We created not the heavens and the earth and all that is between them for a (mere) play .

French 16: Ce n'est pas par jeu que Nous avons créé le ciel et la terre et ce qui est entre eux.

Spanish 16: No creamos el cielo, la tierra y lo que entre ellos hay para pasar el rato.

Indonesian 16: Dan tidaklah Kami ciptakan langit dan bumi dan segala yang ada di antara keduanya dengan bermain-main.

Melayu 16: Dan (ingatlah) tidaklah Kami menciptakan langit dan bumi serta segala yang ada di antaranya, secara main-main.

German 16: Und Wir erschufen Himmel und Erde und das, was zwischen beiden ist, nicht zum Spiel.

Russian 16: Мы не создали небо, землю и все, что между ними, забавляясь.

Bosnian 16: Mi nismo stvorili nebo i Zemlju, i ono što je između njih, da se zabavljamo.

Urdu 16: اور ہم نے آسمان اور زمین کو اورجو کچھ ان کے بیچ میں ہے کھیلتے ہوئے نہیں بنایا

Sad (38:27)
27 وَمَا خَلَقْنَا السَّمَاءَ وَالْأَرْضَ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا بَاطِلًا ذَلِكَ ظَنُّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا فَوَيْلٌ لِّلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنَ النَّارِ

Transliteration 27: Wama khalaqna alssamaa waalarda wama baynahuma batilan thalika thannu allatheena kafaroo fawaylun lillatheena kafaroo mina alnnari

Yusuf Ali 27: Not without purpose did We create heaven and earth and all between! that were the thought of Unbelievers! but woe to the Unbelievers because of the Fire (of Hell)!

Shakir 27: And We did not create the heaven and the earth and what is between them in vain; that is the opinion of those who disbelieve then woe to those who disbelieve on account of the fire.

Pickthal 27: And We created not the heaven and the earth and all that is between them in vain. That is the opinion of those who disbelieve. And woe unto those who disbelieve, from the Fire!

M. Khan 27: And We created not the heaven and the earth and all that is between them without purpose! That is the consideration of those who disbelieve! Then woe to those who disbelieve (in Islamic Monotheism) from the Fire!

French 27: Nous n'avons pas créé le ciel et la terre et ce qui existe entre eux en vain. C'est ce que pensent ceux qui ont mécru. Malheur à ceux qui ont mécru pour le feu [qui les attend]!

Spanish 27: No hemos creado en vano el cielo, la tierra y lo que entre ellos está. Así piensan los infieles. Y ¡ay de los infieles, por el Fuego...!

Indonesian 27: Dan Kami tidak menciptakan langit dan bumi dan apa yang ada antara keduanya tanpa hikmah. Yang demikian itu adalah anggapan orang-orang kafir, maka celakalah orang-orang kafir itu karena mereka akan masuk neraka.

Melayu 27: Dan tiadalah Kami menciptakan langit dan bumi serta segala yang ada di antara keduanya sebagai ciptaan yang tidak mengandungi hikmah dan keadilan; yang demikian adalah sangkaan orang-orang yang kafir! Maka kecelakaanlah bagi orang-orang yang kafir itu dari azab Neraka.

German 27: "Und Wir haben den Himmel und die Erde und das, was zwischen beiden ist, nicht sinnlos erschaffen. Das ist die Ansicht derer, die ungläubig sind. Wehe denn den Ungläubigen wegen des Feuers!

Russian 27: Мы не создали небо и землю и то, что между ними, понапрасну. Так думают только те, которые не веруют. Горе же тем, которые не веруют, от Огня!

Bosnian 27: Mi nismo uzalud stvorili nebo i Zemlju i ono što je između njih; tako misle nevjernici, pa teško nevjernicima kad budu u vatri!

Urdu 27: اور ہم نے آسمان اور زمین کو اور جو کچھ ان کے بیچ میں ہے بیکار تو پیدا نہیں کیا یہ تو ان کا خیال ہے جو کافر ہیں پھرکافروں کے لیے ہلاکت ہے جو آگ ہے

More googled webpaste.

Interesting...that even in every language, "allah" is completely unable to make the simple statement, in the first person singular...."I, "allah", created the heavens and the earth".

Does "allah" require help in creating the Universe....is this why he cannot make this statement himself...?