Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk Philosophy and Religion Forums

وقولهم إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول
الله وما قتلوه وما صلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وإن
الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه ما لهم به من علم
إلا اتباع الظن وما قتلوه يقينا

Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan

4.157 And their saying: "Certainly we killed The Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, “allah's” messenger”, and that they killed him, and that they crucified him, and certainly they alike, and certainly whom they followed in Him, certainly they (are) not in doubt from Him, on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him.



How is it that the authors of the Koran understood that Jesus Christ was crucified until death upon the Cross...?

Apple Pie wrote:وقولهم إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول
الله وما قتلوه وما صلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وإن
الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه ما لهم به من علم
إلا اتباع الظن وما قتلوه يقينا

Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan

4.157 And their saying: "Certainly we killed The Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, “allah's” messenger”, and that they killed him, and that they crucified him, and certainly they alike, and certainly whom they followed in Him, certainly they (are) not in doubt from Him, on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him.



How is it that the authors of the Koran understood that Jesus Christ was crucified until death upon the Cross...?

exactly who is translating these verses for you? I am using the translation of Abdullah Yusuf Ali which is the most widely used translations. He translated during 1934-37 in Lahore, A Learned Sunni Muslim Scholar.

and out of context means that you did not read the next verse as follows

004.157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

004.158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

004.159 And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

outworldish wrote:

Apple Pie wrote:وقولهم إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول
الله وما قتلوه وما صلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وإن
الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه ما لهم به من علم
إلا اتباع الظن وما قتلوه يقينا

Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan

4.157 And their saying: "Certainly we killed The Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, “allah's” messenger”, and that they killed him, and that they crucified him, and certainly they alike, and certainly whom they followed in Him, certainly they (are) not in doubt from Him, on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him.



How is it that the authors of the Koran understood that Jesus Christ was crucified until death upon the Cross...?

exactly who is translating these verses for you?

We are...

I am using the translation of Abdullah Yusuf Ali which is the most widely used translations. He translated during 1934-37 in Lahore, A Learned Sunni Muslim Scholar.

Since when does "popularity" equate to correctness?

It does not.

Let’s look at this simple example from the very same translator that you chose to use with 4.157.

Pay close attention to this ayah, which has not one, not two, not three, but four instances of “wama”…


Qooloo amanna biAllahi wama onzila ilayna wama onzila ila ibraheema wa-ismaAAeela wa-ishaqa wayaAAqooba waal-asbati wama ootiya moosa waAAeesa wama ootiya alnnabiyyoona min rabbihim la nufarriqu bayna ahadin minhum wanahnu lahu muslimoona

2.136 Yusuf Ali

Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."


Observe that Yusuf Ali chose NOT to render “wama” as a negative in four out of four instances.


Thus, according to the flawed Islamic mindset that has been applied to 4.157, then this ayah should read…


Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and NOT the revelation given to us, and NOT Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and NOT given to Moses and Jesus, and NOT given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."


Thus...

How exactly would you like to defend the renderings of Yusuf Ali now...?

and out of context means that you did not read the next verse as follows

004.157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

004.158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

004.159 And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

Actually, the context follows that of the Gospel of Luke.

Further, context does not deny a crucifixion event at all.

Further still, please show us the Arabic word(s) rendered as "in boast".


Thanks...

Apple Pie wrote:

outworldish wrote:

Apple Pie wrote:وقولهم إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول
الله وما قتلوه وما صلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وإن
الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه ما لهم به من علم
إلا اتباع الظن وما قتلوه يقينا

Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan

4.157 And their saying: "Certainly we killed The Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, “allah's” messenger”, and that they killed him, and that they crucified him, and certainly they alike, and certainly whom they followed in Him, certainly they (are) not in doubt from Him, on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him.



How is it that the authors of the Koran understood that Jesus Christ was crucified until death upon the Cross...?

exactly who is translating these verses for you?

We are...

I am using the translation of Abdullah Yusuf Ali which is the most widely used translations. He translated during 1934-37 in Lahore, A Learned Sunni Muslim Scholar.

Since when does "popularity" equate to correctness?

It does not.

Let’s look at this simple example from the very same translator that you chose to use with 4.157.

Pay close attention to this ayah, which has not one, not two, not three, but four instances of “wama”…


Qooloo amanna biAllahi wama onzila ilayna wama onzila ila ibraheema wa-ismaAAeela wa-ishaqa wayaAAqooba waal-asbati wama ootiya moosa waAAeesa wama ootiya alnnabiyyoona min rabbihim la nufarriqu bayna ahadin minhum wanahnu lahu muslimoona

2.136 Yusuf Ali

Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."


Observe that Yusuf Ali chose NOT to render “wama” as a negative in four out of four instances.


Thus, according to the flawed Islamic mindset that has been applied to 4.157, then this ayah should read…


Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and NOT the revelation given to us, and NOT Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and NOT given to Moses and Jesus, and NOT given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."


Thus...

How exactly would you like to defend the renderings of Yusuf Ali now...?

and out of context means that you did not read the next verse as follows

004.157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

004.158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

004.159 And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

Actually, the context follows that of the Gospel of Luke.

Further, context does not deny a crucifixion event at all.

Further still, please show us the Arabic word(s) rendered as "in boast".


Thanks...

The context says that it was made seem to them that they crucified Jesus
and plus i am giving u references , whereas you are just editing the translations by your own.

and for ur information "wama" means AND "walaa" means NOT

Next time you post a translation of a verse from quran, provide a reference to back it up.

outworldish wrote:

Apple Pie wrote:

outworldish wrote:

Apple Pie wrote:وقولهم إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول
الله وما قتلوه وما صلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وإن
الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه ما لهم به من علم
إلا اتباع الظن وما قتلوه يقينا

Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan

4.157 And their saying: "Certainly we killed The Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, “allah's” messenger”, and that they killed him, and that they crucified him, and certainly they alike, and certainly whom they followed in Him, certainly they (are) not in doubt from Him, on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him.



How is it that the authors of the Koran understood that Jesus Christ was crucified until death upon the Cross...?

exactly who is translating these verses for you?

We are...

I am using the translation of Abdullah Yusuf Ali which is the most widely used translations. He translated during 1934-37 in Lahore, A Learned Sunni Muslim Scholar.

Since when does "popularity" equate to correctness?

It does not.

Let’s look at this simple example from the very same translator that you chose to use with 4.157.

Pay close attention to this ayah, which has not one, not two, not three, but four instances of “wama”…


Qooloo amanna biAllahi wama onzila ilayna wama onzila ila ibraheema wa-ismaAAeela wa-ishaqa wayaAAqooba waal-asbati wama ootiya moosa waAAeesa wama ootiya alnnabiyyoona min rabbihim la nufarriqu bayna ahadin minhum wanahnu lahu muslimoona

2.136 Yusuf Ali

Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."


Observe that Yusuf Ali chose NOT to render “wama” as a negative in four out of four instances.


Thus, according to the flawed Islamic mindset that has been applied to 4.157, then this ayah should read…


Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and NOT the revelation given to us, and NOT Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and NOT given to Moses and Jesus, and NOT given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."


Thus...

How exactly would you like to defend the renderings of Yusuf Ali now...?

and out of context means that you did not read the next verse as follows

004.157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

004.158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

004.159 And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

Actually, the context follows that of the Gospel of Luke.

Further, context does not deny a crucifixion event at all.

Further still, please show us the Arabic word(s) rendered as "in boast".


Thanks...

The context says that it was made seem to them that they crucified Jesus
and plus i am giving u references , whereas you are just editing the translations by your own.

Observe...



4.157


وقولهم إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول
الله وما قتلوه وما صلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وإن
الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه ما لهم به من علم
إلا اتباع الظن وما قتلوه يقينا

Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan

4.157 And their saying: "Certainly we killed The Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, “allah's” messenger”, and that they killed Him, and that they crucified Him, and certainly they alike, and certainly whom they followed in Him, certainly they (are) not in doubt from Him, on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him.



This is the quintessential Islamic ayah used by Muslims in an attempt to thwart Jesus’ crucifixion, until death, upon the Cross.

This ayah has been misinterpreted and promoted as a crucifixion denial, when, in fact, it is a Biblical confirmation that Jesus’ crucifixion, and death, upon the Cross, actually did take place.

Rendering 4.157 as a crucifixion denial, forces the Koran into contradiction with itself.


4.157 contains a plethora of positive affirmations, including “wama”, and leaves no doubt in the mind of the reader that Jesus was killed upon the Cross.



Observe this most revealing term, from 4.157, used in reference to Jesus Christ…




اختلفوا = “ikhtalafoo”

“ikhtalafoo” definition:

Masculine plural. They followed, or succeeded one another; whenever one went, another coming after him. The going, or moving repeatedly to and fro; so coming and going; or reciprocating. The returning, or repairing, time after time, or repeatedly, or frequently to a person or place; because it implies coming and going; and sometimes it means simply the returning; because this cannot be without a previous going. They disagreed in a thing or an affair or a case; every one of them took to, or held a way, or opinion, different from or contrary to that of another; both signify the same.

It comes from the root “khahafa”, which means he came after, followed, succeeded, or remained after another or another that had perished or died. He, a man, retired, withdrew, or went away or apart. He fled. He ascended a mountain; to succeed, take the place of, be the agent, substitute of. A substitute; a thing given, or received, or put, or done, instead of, in place of, or in exchange for, another thing. Difference of any kind.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume two, pp. 792 - 799
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 162 - 163



Here we have a solid-gold confirmation that Jesus indeed died on the Cross, as the root confirms that His followers remained after He died on the Cross!

Further, the root also confirms to us that Jesus was the sin substitution for mankind!



Further still, we have a clause (flanked by “ma”), which can be rendered as a negative adverb confirming that there is “no doubt” about the crucifixion of Jesus Christ…



شك = “shakkin”

“shakkin” definition:

Doubt; a wavering or vacillation in opinion between two things, whether they be equal in probability or such that one of them outweighs therein the other; or uncertainty; or a wavering or vacillation in opinion between two inconsistent things without making either of them to outweigh the other in the estimation of him who conceives the doubt; a pausing or hesitation between two extremes that are equal in probability without the mind’s inclining to either of them. Alternation or confusedness of two inconsistent things, in the judgment of a man, and their being equal. A state of commotion or disturbance of the heart and mind. A small crack in a bone. A seam, or line of sewing, of a garment. Arsenic. A covering that is put upon the backs of the two curved extremities of the bow.

It comes from the root “shakka”, which means the thing, or case, or affair, was, or became, dubious, or confused. He doubted, wavered or vacillated in opinion, or was uncertain respecting it. Said of a camel, he limped or halted; or had a slight lameness of his hind leg: or his arm stuck to his side, and he had a slight lameness in consequence thereof. The cleaving or sticking of a thing to another thing. I pierced, or transpierced him, or it, with a spear, and with the arrow. He was made, or asserted to be connected with the lineage of another.


References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume four, pp. 1582 - 1583
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 297



Amazing as it is, the root of this word gives us further insight that Jesus was pierced in the side – same as declared in the Holy Bible.

and for ur information "wama" means AND "walaa" means NOT

Wrong.


ما = “ma”

“ma” definition:

Conjunctive pronoun. That; which; that which; whatsoever; what; as; as much; in such a manner as; as much as; as for as; any kind; when; how. Does not, as a rule, refer to reasonable things, but instances to the contrary sometimes occur. It is one of those particles, which, in conditional propositions, govern the verb in the conditional mood; it is frequently a mere expletive. It is also a negative adverb, Not; in general it denies a circumstance either present, or of past, but little remote from the present; it governs the attribute in the accusative, thus it is a negative particle when placed before the perfect as in 53.2; or before a pronoun as in 68.2; or before an demonstrative noun as in 12.31. The particle, when joined to the perfect, denies the past; when joined to the imperfect, the present.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, p. 3016
A Grammar of the Arabic Language, W. Wright, Third edition, volume 2, p. 300
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 523 - 524
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, pp. 135 - 136

112.001 قُلْ هُوَ اللَّهُ أَحَدٌ
112.001 Qul huwa All[a]hu a[h]ad(un)
112.001 Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;

112.002 اللَّهُ الصَّمَدُ
112.002 All[a]hu a(l)[ss]amad(u)
112.002 Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;

112.003 لَمْ يَلِدْ وَلَمْ يُولَدْ
112.003 Lam yalid walam yoolad(u)
112.003 He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

112.004 وَلَمْ يَكُنْ لَهُ كُفُوًا أَحَدٌ
112.004 Walam yakun lahu kufuwan a[h]ad(un)
112.004 And there is none like unto Him.

Al-Qur'an, 112.001-004 (Al-Ikhlas [Sincerity])

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.9


109.001 قُلْ يَا أَيُّهَا الْكَافِرُونَ
109.001 Qul y[a] ayyuh[a] alk[a]firoon(a)
109.001 Say : O ye that reject Faith!

109.002 لا أَعْبُدُ مَا تَعْبُدُونَ
109.002 L[a] aAAbudu m[a] taAAbudoon(a)
109.002 I worship not that which ye worship,

109.003 وَلا أَنْتُمْ عَابِدُونَ مَا أَعْبُدُ
109.003 Wal[a] antum AA[a]bidoona m[a] aAAbud(u)
109.003 Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

109.004 وَلا أَنَا عَابِدٌ مَا عَبَدْتُمْ
109.004 Wal[a] an[a] AA[a]bidun m[a] AAabadtum
109.004 And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,

109.005 وَلا أَنْتُمْ عَابِدُونَ مَا أَعْبُدُ
109.005 Wal[a] antum AA[a]bidoona m[a] aAAbud(u)
109.005 Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

109.006 لَكُمْ دِينُكُمْ وَلِيَ دِينِ
109.006 Lakum deenukum waliya deen(i)
109.006 To you be your Way, and to me mine.

Al-Qur'an, 109.001-006 (Al-Kafiroon [The Disbelievers, Atheists])

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.9

How is it that the authors of the Koran knew that Jesus Christ was crucified until death upon the Cross?

DeJa Vu =/

Applepie - sorry, but you have been mislead.

I suggest you re-read your Arabic text books and show the verse in question to any Arabic speaker to confirm the translation.

'Ma Qatalu-hu Yaqinan' means literally 'They did not kill him for certain'.

Ma is a common negation in Arabic - and this is with my very limited Arabic knowlege - as in Ma fi akbar (there is NO news) or Ma indy fuloos - I have NO money with me.

Given that all translations translate the verses in question as 'they did not kill him', I'm afraid your whole argument is based on a misconception.

No Muslim or Arab hearing this verse has ever been in doubt what the meaning of the verse is.

Cheers,
Shafique

By the way Apple Pie I'm pretty sure you're not Arab as a second grader can tell what the meaning of that verse is. I'm an Arab and I know exactly what that means. There is no question about it nor can it be misinterpreted, so I have to conclude that you are deliberately trying to distort the meaning.

Sorry but you have failed miserably, it's like you're trying to convince us an apple is an orange.

shafique wrote:Applepie - sorry, but you have been mislead.

I suggest you re-read your Arabic text books and show the verse in question to any Arabic speaker to confirm the translation.

Done.

All have been completely unable to refute the exegesis...

'Ma Qatalu-hu Yaqinan' means literally 'They did not kill him for certain'.

Wrong.

All Koranic instances of a crucifixion event maintains certain death.

Ma is a common negation in Arabic - and this is with my very limited Arabic knowlege - as in Ma fi akbar (there is NO news) or Ma indy fuloos - I have NO money with me.

"Ma" is not always a negation...as already shown from the classic definition and its usages within the Koran itself.

Given that all translations translate the verses in question as 'they did not kill him', I'm afraid your whole argument is based on a misconception.

Translating "wama" as a negative in 4.157 forces the Koran into contradiction with itself.

No Muslim or Arab hearing this verse has ever been in doubt what the meaning of the verse is.

Cheers,
Shafique

So...an entire islamic theology rests squarely upon one mis-interpreted Koranic ayah...?

This is very weak...

MC wrote:By the way Apple Pie I'm pretty sure you're not Arab as a second grader can tell what the meaning of that verse is. I'm an Arab and I know exactly what that means. There is no question about it nor can it be misinterpreted, so I have to conclude that you are deliberately trying to distort the meaning.

Sorry but you have failed miserably, it's like you're trying to convince us an apple is an orange.

Feel free to exegetically defend the islamic position.

So far, you have done nothing...

As I said, it's like your trying to tell me an apple is actually an orange. This is simply pointless to debate, and your answer has already been posted above about the actual translation.

As Shafiq said, some debates aren't worth having.

MC wrote:As I said, it's like your trying to tell me an apple is actually an orange. This is simply pointless to debate, and your answer has already been posted above about the actual translation.

As Shafiq said, some debates aren't worth having.

Then we will wait for someone more cognizant to come along....thanks...

I hope everyone realises that Apple Pie is arguing that the Quran is right and therefore that all people should believe the Quran when it says:

“Today I have perfected your religion for you, and I have completed My favour to you, and I have chosen for you Islam as your religion.” (5:3)

I initially thought you weren't a Muslim, but as you rightly point out the Quran tells the truth, thanks for clarifying that you are a Muslim and are advocating all people to become Muslims.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:I hope everyone realises that Apple Pie is arguing that the Quran is right and therefore that all people should believe the Quran when it says:

“Today I have perfected your religion for you, and I have completed My favour to you, and I have chosen for you Islam as your religion.” (5:3)

The argument is that the Koran copies the Holy Bible.

Remember...the Koran never once states that it was divinely inspired.

Not once.

The Koran can only repeat over and over, that it merely copied the previous inspired Jewish and Christian scriptures.

I initially thought you weren't a Muslim, but as you rightly point out the Quran tells the truth, thanks for clarifying that you are a Muslim and are advocating all people to become Muslims.

Cheers,
Shafique

You should have gone with your first impression...

Apple Pie - so you are saying that the Quran is like the Bible - you agree with some of the verses and reject the others. Ok - I thought you were saying that the whole of the Quran was true.

The Quran does not claim to be like the Bible, you are right. The Bible does not claim that it is the word of God (and you have to be clear about which version of the Bible you are talking about - The Coptic Christians, for example, have more books in the NT than Western Christians).

The Quran by contrast says it is the literal word of God, which is different from the Bible. If you therefore agree with some of the verses, you have to agree with all of them.

Never mind - you probably are under the impression that the Bible is the complete word of God, but you would be surprised that Muslims actually agree with what Jesus said about himself - 'Why callest me good, there is non good but God'... 'Our father who art in heaven'....'The father is greater than I' etc etc

Above all, we believe him when he says 'I have come to the lost sheep of the house of Israel' - i.e. he was the Jewish Messiah.

We don't believe the Bible's account that Jesus would curse a fig tree for not bearing fruit (out of season)- a prophet of God would not curse, and why Christians believe that God would not know a fig tree had no fruit is baffling to Muslims.

That is why I thought you were a Muslim and arguing that the Quran is true and that we should follow Islam.

Perhaps you are a Mormon or a Bahai and don't believe in the Bible?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Apple Pie - so you are saying that the Quran is like the Bible - you agree with some of the verses and reject the others. Ok - I thought you were saying that the whole of the Quran was true.

No.

The authors of the Koran state that they merely copied the Holy Bible.

A copy is not the original.

The Quran does not claim to be like the Bible, you are right.

The Koran claims to have copied the Holy Bible (alkitabu).

The Bible does not claim that it is the word of God (and you have to be clear about which version of the Bible you are talking about - The Coptic Christians, for example, have more books in the NT than Western Christians).

The Holy Bible does indeed claim to be divinely inspired.

The Koran, however, does not.

The Quran by contrast says it is the literal word of God, which is different from the Bible. If you therefore agree with some of the verses, you have to agree with all of them.

Wrong.

The Koran never once states to be divinely inspired.

Never mind - you probably are under the impression that the Bible is the complete word of God, but you would be surprised that Muslims actually agree with what Jesus said about himself - 'Why callest me good, there is non good but God'... 'Our father who art in heaven'....'The father is greater than I' etc etc

Islam 101...

However, this thread is about the Koranic proclamation that Jesus Christ was crucified until death.

I thought being the word of God constitutes it being divinely inspired?

MC wrote:I thought being the word of God constitutes it being divinely inspired?

Too bad the Koran never makes this simple claim.

Apple Pie wrote:

MC wrote:I thought being the word of God constitutes it being divinely inspired?

Too bad the Koran never makes this simple claim.

Hmm

Will they not then ponder on the Quran? If it had been from other than God they would have found therein much contradiction and incongruity. (al-Nisa’, 4.82)

If you are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down onto Our servant (Muhammad), then produce a chapter of the like thereof, and call your witnesses, supporters, who are apart from God, if you are truthful. (al-Baqara, 2.23)


Never mind Apple Pie - if you have other misconceptions you'd like us to clear up, let us know.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:

Apple Pie wrote:

MC wrote:I thought being the word of God constitutes it being divinely inspired?

Too bad the Koran never makes this simple claim.

Hmm

Will they not then ponder on the Quran? If it had been from other than God they would have found therein much contradiction and incongruity. (al-Nisa’, 4.82)

The classic Arabic definition for "alquran" states that it is a collection of the previous scriptures.

Hardly divinely inspired to collect what was already written, and then re-write it.

Try again...

If you are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down onto Our servant (Muhammad), then produce a chapter of the like thereof, and call your witnesses, supporters, who are apart from God, if you are truthful. (al-Baqara, 2.23)

First of all, the term "Muhammad" never appears in the Arabic of this ayah...nor in the entire sura. Hence, the need to place it in parenthesis.

This is called deceit.

Secondly, this ayah falls squarely in the context of Biblical material copied from the Holy Bible.

Try again...

Apple Pie, I thought you might be a doubting Thomas... how about this verse of the Quran:

10.37 And this is not the attribute of this Quran, that any one might fabricate it without being sent down by Allah, Yes it is a confirmation of the former Books and is the detail explanation of what is written in the Table, there is no doubt in it, it is from the Lord of the worlds.

I also refer you to the opening verses of the second chapter.

The Quran means that which is to be recited - and if you are saying that the Quran is written by God and should be followed, then I agree with you.

Are you sure you are not a Muslim?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Apple Pie, I thought you might be a doubting Thomas... how about this verse of the Quran:

10.37 And this is not the attribute of this Quran, that any one might fabricate it without being sent down by Allah, Yes it is a confirmation of the former Books and is the detail explanation of what is written in the Table, there is no doubt in it, it is from the Lord of the worlds.

What is "alkitabi" that this ayah mentions?

I also refer you to the opening verses of the second chapter.

Show us...

The Quran means that which is to be recited -

Wrong.

Not originally.

Are you sure you are not a Muslim?

Cheers,
Shafique

Positive.

004.157
YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

PICKTHAL: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

SHAKIR: And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

out of these three translations pick whichever you like. they all are debunking your claim

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html

outworldish wrote:004.157
YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

PICKTHAL: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

SHAKIR: And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

out of these three translations pick whichever you like. they all are debunking your claim

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html

Where is the Arabic exegesis...or...are you ashamed of the Arabic...?

Apple Pie - are you really sure you're not a Muslim who has come here just to make Christians look foolish?

This is not a good way of debating - I know that you may wish to make Christians look like fools by misquoting basic Arabic verses, but most Christians who take the time to study Islam choose theological arguments rather than choosing to look stupid, so this tactic may not convince many Christians.

It is not nice to appear silly just to highlight the beauties of the Quran and its superiority over the Bible. As a Muslim you should attract people to the truth with good arguments.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Apple Pie - are you really sure you're not a Muslim who has come here just to make Christians look foolish?

This is not a good way of debating - I know that you may wish to make Christians look like fools by misquoting basic Arabic verses, but most Christians who take the time to study Islam choose theological arguments rather than choosing to look stupid, so this tactic may not convince many Christians.

It is not nice to appear silly just to highlight the beauties of the Quran and its superiority over the Bible. As a Muslim you should attract people to the truth with good arguments.

Cheers,
Shafique

Please let us know when a cognizant follower of islam arrives who is not ashamed to discuss the classic Arabic in which his/her book of faith was penned....thanks...

Apple Pie - as I said, pretending to be a Christian and deliberately appearing to be silly won't impress many people.

As you say though, we should wait for someone who will play your game.

Good luck.

Cheers,
Shafique