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the air you breath these days causes cancer... if you're going to go cautiously about everything, you will live a very sheltered vial life.

the article talks about processed meat, which in the middle east is replaced by turkey/chicken/beef in various forms... and since chicken farms in the middle east could hardly meet demands, most chicken you eat is processed.

agree ebonics - I try to avoid all mechanically processed meats.

Interestingly the article seems to single out processed pig meat products - and this is in a UK tabloid paper (that is quite right wing). The sausages and bacon tend to include nitrates/nitrites (or something similar) which some say are the causal factors for increased cancer risks - but I'm not a scientist and don't intend to start eating pork!

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:agree ebonics - I try to avoid all mechanically processed meats.

Interestingly the article seems to single out processed pig meat products - and this is in a UK tabloid paper (that is quite right wing). The sausages and bacon tend to include nitrates/nitrites (or something similar) which some say are the causal factors for increased cancer risks - but I'm not a scientist and don't intend to start eating pork!

Cheers,
Shafique

because sausage and bacon in none pig products exists in tiny portions for the minorities.. and this paper is communicating to the majority of brits that chow down bacon & sausages every morning

pork is an essential part of english life, and is consumed in any proper english breakfast... come on shafique you're english innit?

i should add,

the spanish have a rediculous diet of processed pork products, probably to rival the brits..


but they have a longer life expectancy that actually INCREASES, and people are generally a lot healthier.. current life expectancy in spain is 79.78 years. its got more to do with how they live their life worry free, and they are generally happy cheerful people, that just love to have fun regardless of their age.

current life expectancy in england even with this diet is also in the is in the 68.8 - which is hardly bad..


but comparing england and spain is a sin....

You are treading on dangerous ground when you start trying to justify religious befiefs using scientific studies.

You should not need any other reasons for not eating pork other than those given by PBUH Muhammad.

Out of interest, what are they???

ebonics - let me declare an interest, I work in life insurance and one of my specialities is critical illness - which includes cancers.

You are right - Spain has a high intake of pork related products and a higher life expectancy than the UK.

However, when you look at bowel cancer in particular, Spain comes out worse than the UK:

see table 2.4:
http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/cancer ... mortality/

(And this is despite the fact that Spanish people eat more fibre than the UK - predominantly fruit and vegetables, which in itself reduces bowel cancer rates by about 50% according to different studies. Therefore, if we were to take out the beneficial aspects of the rich in fibre Spanish diet, it could be argued that the bowel cancer rates would be even higher - lending weight to the hypothesis that processed pork increases cancer risk).

Cheers,
Shafique

benwj wrote:You are treading on dangerous ground when you start trying to justify religious befiefs using scientific studies.

You should not need any other reasons for not eating pork other than those given by PBUH Muhammad.

Out of interest, what are they???

I haven't mentioned religion in this thread - but now you have brought it up...

The Quran actually does not give reasons for not eating pork - it just says God forbids believers from eating it. It does say elsewhere that the pigs are considered unclean, but that is not the explicit reason for forbidding pork.

By contrast alcohol and gambling are stated in the Quran as being banned because the bad outweighs the good (and says there is some good in both) - and because of this both are banned.

But for pork, no reason is given. Muslims don't eat pork simply because we believe God forbids us from eating it. On this point, I merely listen and obey.

And just to lighten the mood, how about this Tarantino penned quote from Pulp fiction:

Vincent: "Want some bacon?"
Jules: "No man, I don't eat pork."
Vincent: "Are you Jewish?"
Jules: "No, I ain't Jewish, I just don't dig on swine, that's all."
Vincent: "Why not?"
Jules: "Pigs are filthy animals. I don't eat filthy animals."
Vincent: "Yeah, but bacon tastes good; pork chops taste good."
Jules: "Sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know, because I'd never eat the filthy mot#%$0!r.
Pigs sleep and root in shit, that's a filthy animal. I don't wanna eat nothin' that ain't got enough sense to
disregard its own faeces."
Vincent: "How about a dog? A dog eats its own faeces?"
Jules: "I don't eat dog either."



Cheers,
Shafique

while you maybe correct about spanish having a higher bowel cancer rate,

you cant just "take out" the beneficial aspect - they are healthy people

Therefore, if we were to take out the beneficial aspects of the rich in fibre Spanish diet, it could be argued that the bowel cancer rates would be even higher - lending weight to the hypothesis that processed pork increases cancer risk).

processed meat of any kind increases cancer risk.... the spanish eat processed meat of every kind, predominantly pork - jamon as they call it is an essential part of a big majority of spanish dishes that you eat out and about..... again because processed meat of the other kinds than pork, would cater to only a minor minority that dont eat pork.

so in a country where islam doesnt ban pork to be sold willy nilly as it does here, people feast on pork, because you cant have eggs without bacon, and pork sausages are heaven sent. (excuse the pun)

I haven't mentioned religion in this thread

it only takes 1/100th of a brain to realise where you're heading with the thread.

looking at that graph again, if you add female and male and average both out over both countries, they'd be nearly exactly the same...

spain's only marginally higher in the male department

UK's only marginally higher in the female department


so at the end, "same same" as they say here..

ebonics - stats can be interpreted in many ways, all one can do is look at evidence and see whether the findings support the theory or not.

It would be interesting to see if the findings of the original article can be replicated in other countries.

I'm sure just these stats won't change many people's eating habits - I just thought it interesting (and yes, from my perspective it strengthened my conviction that I am right not eat pork)

Cheers,
Shafique

so how does this effect fresh pork steak or pork chops? in no way at all.


the article is clear, common deniminator, isnt pork... its processed....

Are there any studies done whether people who eat halal have a longer life expectancy than others? That would be interesting to me. I remember reading somewhere that Jews eating kosher have a slighly longer life expectancy.
Also concerning food and drinking habits, the following saying comes from several studies concerning the usage of alcohol: "a glass of wine everyday to keep the doctor away".

Edit: Did some googling afterwards (maybe next time I should first google and then write). Seems there is quite some consensus red wine (in moderation of course) reduces the risk of cancer, espesially prostate cancer. Beer might have the same effect.

shafique wrote:ebonics - stats can be interpreted in many ways, all one can do is look at evidence and see whether the findings support the theory or not.

It would be interesting to see if the findings of the original article can be replicated in other countries.

I'm sure just these stats won't change many people's eating habits - I just thought it interesting (and yes, from my perspective it strengthened my conviction that I am right not eat pork)

Cheers,
Shafique

You're right. People are far more worried about the fat content in pork rather than the risk of getting cancer. The popularity of aspartame proves this, but that is a different topic all together.
Regarding the cleanliness of pigs, I once had a pet pig, and I can confirm that they are very clean animals. They are as smart as dogs but unlike dogs, they don't eat their own crap, sniff lick each others butts, or lick their balls. They crap in a designated area of their pen and prefer to sleep on dry clean ground. They do smell if left unattended, which may be why they are considered unclean. But we would smell also if we didn't wash.

wine is a prime reason why french women do not get fat, and generally contains good anti oxidents.

Flying Dutchman wrote:Are there any studies done whether people who eat halal have a longer life expectancy than others? That would be interesting to me. I remember reading somewhere that Jews eating kosher have a slighly longer life expectancy.
Also concerning food and drinking habits, the following saying comes from several studies concerning the usage of alcohol: "a glass of wine everyday to keep the doctor away".

Edit: Did some googling afterwards (maybe next time I should first google and then write). Seems there is quite some consensus red wine (in moderation of course) reduces the risk of cancer, espesially prostate cancer. Beer might have the same effect.

Asians (as in Indians) have higher incidences of diabetes and heart attacks, mostly down to diet (rich in saturated fats) - compared to other ethnic groups. Muslim asians have the same issue. So just eating Halaal is not in itself a guarantee of better mortality.

However, one hadith that universally it seems everyone knows but ignores is the advice that a Muslim should eat and drink such that one third of their stomach capacity is food, one third is water and one third is air - and that we should eat slowly.

For me (I fail this advice) - this is very wise - for it is up to the individual to judge what a 'third' of their stomach is - and to drink equal amounts of water, but stop eating before they feel full.

As for wine, it is no surprise to Muslims that there is some benefit in alcohol - all the studies show there is a 'J' curve - small amounts are beneficial, but increasing amounts are not beneficial. The fact that the Quran states this fact is for Muslims a reinforcement of faith, and I guess for others a happy coincidence

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:As for wine, it is no surprise to Muslims that there is some benefit in alcohol - all the studies show there is a 'J' curve - small amounts are beneficial, but increasing amounts are not beneficial. The fact that the Quran states this fact is for Muslims a reinforcement of faith, and I guess for others a happy coincidence

Cheers,
Shafique

so you're saying the quran says, drink alcohol in moderation? because if it does, i think i missed that one.


do you drink in moderation shafique, or do you abstain from alcohol?

shafique wrote:As for wine, it is no surprise to Muslims that there is some benefit in alcohol - all the studies show there is a 'J' curve - small amounts are beneficial, but increasing amounts are not beneficial. The fact that the Quran states this fact is for Muslims a reinforcement of faith, and I guess for others a happy coincidence

I thought the Quran states that there are some benefits to alcohol. Where does it say alcohol in moderation is beneficial???

benwj wrote:You're right. People are far more worried about the fat content in pork rather than the risk of getting cancer. The popularity of aspartame proves this, but that is a different topic all together.
Regarding the cleanliness of pigs, I once had a pet pig, and I can confirm that they are very clean animals. They are as smart as dogs but unlike dogs, they don't eat their own crap, sniff lick each others butts, or lick their balls. They crap in a designated area of their pen and prefer to sleep on dry clean ground. They do smell if left unattended, which may be why they are considered unclean. But we would smell also if we didn't wash.

As I said benwj, on the question of eating pork, the reason I don't eat it is solely because I believe God banned it (first in the Bible, in Leviticus).

There are some that look for other reasons not to eat it, but I personally don't think it necessary and looking for reasons (as a Muslim) gets you into all kinds of unnecessary debate over whether it is unclean, contains retroviruses, tastes like human flesh etc etc - khalas, God says don't eat it and we don't eat it.

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman wrote:

shafique wrote:As for wine, it is no surprise to Muslims that there is some benefit in alcohol - all the studies show there is a 'J' curve - small amounts are beneficial, but increasing amounts are not beneficial. The fact that the Quran states this fact is for Muslims a reinforcement of faith, and I guess for others a happy coincidence

I thought the Quran states that there are some benefits to alcohol. Where does it say alcohol in moderation is beneficial???

Chapter 2 v219
THEY WILL ASK YOU CONCERNING ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES AND GAMBLING. SAY: IN EACH OF THERE LIES SERIOUS VICE, AS WELL AS SOME BENEFITS FOR MANKIND, YET THEIR SIN IS GREATER THAN THEIR USEFULNESS (S2:V219)

alternative translation is:
They ask you the precept of wine and gambling. Say you, 'in both there is great sin and also some worldly profit for the people but their sin is greater than their profit and ask you what they ought to spend, say you, 'that which is saved after your needs'. Thus, Allah explains to you His Signs so that you may do after reflecting,


I'm taking the 'some benefit' to mean the beneficial effects of alcohol when taken in moderation - which is what has been shown in science.

And to be clear, the Quran bans alcohol and gambling elsewhere in the Quran, but this verse tells us why.

so, would you personally drink half a glass of wine a day, for good health?

ebonics, the Quran forbids alcohol and gambling, but aknowledges there are some benefits to both, but the bad out-weighs the good.

The verse forbidding alcohol and gambling is :

5v9 O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.


Anyway - it is well known by all that Islam says Muslims should not drink. It is less well known that the Quran acknowledges some benefit to alcohol and gambling (eg some lotteries pay out money to charities, but my view is that these lotteries are taxes on the poor and stupid - two different classes of people)

Cheers,
Shafique

So a glass of wine with my dinner is a sin, because alcohol is made by satan, although health wise is it good for me?

so the quran forbids something that may be of some health benefit to humans if used correctly...

flying dutchman just added a whole new dimension.
ill rephrase

so the quran forbids something that may be of some health benefit to humans if used correctly...

and satan made soemthing that maybe of health benifit to humans

Shafique, please donot get me wrong here. I donot try to bash to alcohol thing in Islam here. I think it is in general a great thing that the Quran warns against the usage of alcohol (just look around you and see how much damage it does). Only, when using common sense I cannot see how moderate use of alcohol is bad, a sin etc....

im just fascinated as to shafique's contention that the quran contains no contradictions, when he just spoke one.

Oh, and lets not forget the benefits of alcohol used for medical reasons (antiseptic, coughing sirop etc)...also the handiwork of satan? And I do believe Shafique posted somewhere that he is using alcohol for this reason (medical that is).

shafique wrote:Chapter 2 v219
THEY WILL ASK YOU CONCERNING ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES AND GAMBLING. SAY: IN EACH OF THERE LIES SERIOUS VICE, AS WELL AS SOME BENEFITS FOR MANKIND, YET THEIR SIN IS GREATER THAN THEIR USEFULNESS (S2:V219)

alternative translation is:
They ask you the precept of wine and gambling. Say you, 'in both there is great sin and also some worldly profit for the people but their sin is greater than their profit and ask you what they ought to spend, say you, 'that which is saved after your needs'. Thus, Allah explains to you His Signs so that you may do after reflecting,


I'm taking the 'some benefit' to mean the beneficial effects of alcohol when taken in moderation - which is what has been shown in science.

Some perspective is needed here and this story was written over a thousand years ago.
I don't think anyone knew or cared about the possible health benefits of alcohol when people were dying at half the age they are today.
I suspect that the 'some benefit' is the happy feeling that they got after drinking alcohol and the benefits are that ugly women started to look better.
The downside is that, if they drank too much, they may have done stupid things that they regreted, like having sexytime with their pet goat.
I think that you will agree that the sin is far greater than the profit and this is why alcohol was forbidden.

Flying Dutchman wrote:Shafique, please donot get me wrong here. I donot try to bash to alcohol thing in Islam here. I think it is in general a great thing that the Quran warns against the usage of alcohol (just look around you and see how much damage it does). Only, when using common sense I cannot see how moderate use of alcohol is bad, a sin etc....

Moderate alcohol use is beneficial to health according to modern research. Islam says that as a society though we are better off not taking alcohol because the bad outweighs the good.

Many things in small quantities aren't harmful. Particularly drugs. Society needs to decide which drugs to allow and which to ban - Islam chooses to ban alcohol and gambling as they are bad for society.

I don't think anyone disagrees with the premise that alcohol causes more harm than good - it just is a socially acceptable drug.

ebonics - I can't see why you think it is a contradiction for the Quran to say it is banning something that is on the whole (but not completely) bad. Seems very logical to me, and ahead of its time when it comes to pointing out some benefit in alcohol.

Cheers,
Shafique