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I'm still with the scholar that does not think the Hadith about Salim was valid - as it contradicts the Quran.

It appears to me that Al-Azhar had to try and save face when the head of Hadith made the fatwa on the basis that the Hadith is valid - and they could not come out and say the obvious - that the Hadith is not valid and false.

cheers,
Shafique

Assalamu alaikum bro. Shafique,

There are rules and procedures to follow when judging any Hadith. This Hadith is (Agreed Upon) by al-Bukhari and Muslim, and was also reported by Imam Malik, an-Nasaa'i and Ahmad. The consensus on what deduction can be taken from it, is that it was a peculiar case for Salim.

Further more, the Hadith does not suggest in any form, shape or manner, that the woman pull out her breast and breast-feed the man. Nor was that the case with Salim [ra], rather, it means, that he was given a milk to consume by a relative of her. This, the scholars say, was peculiar for Salim as a grown adult. Otherwise, suckling that alienate prohibition is for children two years of age or below. This is what the overwhelming majority of scholars are holding as a ruling.

And Allah knows best.

I guess I am with the minority of scholars then.



Also, my understanding is that Bukhari and Muslim allowed Hadith with strong string of narrations, but that even these contained false Hadith - for example people may have mis-remembered.

The over-riding criterion for me is the Hadith which says that if any Hadith contradicts the Quran, we should reject it.

Edit - the Hadith I was thinking of is:
The Holy Prophet is reported to have said, "If you find anything foolish ascribed to me, discard it. For it is not from me".

(I don't have the reference though)

Edit 2:
http://www.renaissance.com.pk/MayQuer92y3.html

Note the last point - Hadith should be checked against Sunnah and Quran.

cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Told you there were wierd hadith out there!

the weirder the better!

shafique wrote:People do invent the strangest things - like having us believe that a 'son of God' would curse a fig tree for not having any fruit (when it was not fig season)! (Sorry, could not resist that one).

Jesus did and said some weird things! When I was a kid I was puzzled by things like "the word became flesh" but we grow up we learn what some words truly mean, just like what the fig parable is really about (disappointment in Israel).

shafique wrote:But seriously, many hadith relating to Aisha need to be examined carefully - she was a hate figure amongst some Muslims and there are many defamatory hadith about her.

OK, the Texts on the USC Muslim Text Compendium are part of a project that is scholarly, supported by an important university and if you notice it is actually pro-Islamic in nature. So I don't know why it's being implied that these are not serious Hadiths. This project actually states that Hadiths that go against what Mohammad said are not to be heeded. So one can assume that the Hadiths they collected are acceptable and trustworthy and don't go against the Quran.

Re: earlier quote - they seem to state that marrying milk relatives is a no-no (even though they're not related). But marrying cousins and uncles is ok?

more interesting stuff:
http://tinyurl.com/2j82bl

Habib wrote:The wives of the Messenger [saw] have a unanimous agreement that the case was peculiar with Salim, and have denied the generalization. As such, was the ruling of the overwhelming majority of scholars.

do you know that some people and sects practice this today? (in very backward areas)

i fail to see how this applies to only 1 person, you cant just be a prophet and go out and say things like that to apply to 1 person..


thats as rediculous as saying you cant masturbate, but you can if its going to stop you from zina...

ebonics wrote:

Habib wrote:The wives of the Messenger [saw] have a unanimous agreement that the case was peculiar with Salim, and have denied the generalization. As such, was the ruling of the overwhelming majority of scholars.

do you know that some people and sects practice this today? (in very backward areas)

i fail to see how this applies to only 1 person, you cant just be a prophet and go out and say things like that to apply to 1 person..


thats as rediculous as saying you cant masturbate, but you can if its going to stop you from zina...

ebonics - I totally agree with you. It is ridiculous to believe that a Messenger of God would say such things.

However, people do tend to believe the weirdest things.

Does this practice really occur in some areas? Wow.

But for the record, I don't believe there are true Hadith saying what you quoted. I'm sure that there are hadith out there saying this, but I would not consider them true.

It is interesting though that the core of Islam is the Quran and its teachings. The majority of Hadith are in total accordance with the Quran. Yet all the attacks at Islam are against the peripheral writings/teachings/practices.

This gives me confidence that the core teachings of Islam are what it claims to be - from God, eternal and universal. And above all the teachings are unnassailable.

If the best criticisms one can come up with is that Muhammad, pbuh, was an epileptic paedophile who just got lucky when he dictated a coherent book that laid down a religion that is philosophically sound, made prophecies that came true, only performed minor miracles and that by the way he may have said to some person to breastfeed an adult ... well, I am encouraged.

Why am I encouraged? Well, if you look back at how all true prophets were treated, you will see a pattern and Muhammad, pbuh, fits this pattern 100% (that the opponents come up with trumped up charges against their prophethood)

But hey - that is me. Jews are quite certain they are right to reject Jesus - Christians are similarly quite certain they are right to reject Muhammad, pbuh.

Christians could be wrong. Muslims could be wrong.

God knows.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:
But for the record, I don't believe these are true Hadith.

Cheers,
Shafique

habib does, so does sahih muslim, and the azhar.


thats good enough for me

i should quote freza asking you do you ever step out and look in... because in this case, you're most definatly in denial.

ebonics wrote:

shafique wrote:
But for the record, I don't believe these are true Hadith.

Cheers,
Shafique

habib does, so does sahih muslim, and the azhar.


thats good enough for me

i should quote freza asking you do you ever step out and look in... because in this case, you're most definatly in denial.

Habib says that a minority of scholars agree with me. So I'm not alone in my denial.

Do you know the story of the Emperor's New Clothes?

Cheers,
Shafique

who doesnt.

Christians could be wrong. Muslims could be wrong.

answer to that is simple, i follow and believe in the one that is alive here & now, and beat death twice... the one that lived a pure life from start to finish.

the other is dead, in a grave, and hardly free of sin.

choice was never hard.

ebonics wrote:who doesnt.

Christians could be wrong. Muslims could be wrong.

answer to that is simple, i follow and believe in the one that is alive here & now, and beat death twice... the one that lived a pure life from start to finish.

the other is dead, in a grave, and hardly free of sin.

choice was never hard.

And yet you abandoned Christianity and don't believe in following all the teachings of the Coptic Church.

As I said, Christians are convinced they are right and are as convinced of the truth of Jesus as the Jews are that Jesus is a false Messiah.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:And yet you abandoned Christianity and don't believe in following all the teachings of the Coptic Church.

that part, is totally, none of your concern or business.

i already stated i believe in jesus, but not religion as we know it today.

ebonics wrote:

shafique wrote:And yet you abandoned Christianity and don't believe in following all the teachings of the Coptic Church.

that part, is totally, none of your concern or business.

i already stated i believe in jesus, but not religion as we know it today.

I don't know you from Adam - but you volunteered the information and I thought it had relevance in this context (that you don't believe in following the Bible, but think Christians are correct)

Cheers,
Shafique