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Ok this may have been mentioned before but I would like to discuss the differences between these 2 sects. Actually discuss might not be the right word as I am actually aiming to gain more knowledge about the arguments each side has regarding their differences.

I know that some of you would say taht we should just follow the Quran and the teachings of the Prophet pbuh, but that is not what I want to hear. Basically I would like to hear arguments of both sides, which may be hard as I'm not sure if there are any Shias on this site.

Anyway what I would like to discuss is the following:

-Sucessors of the Prophet

-Emphasis
Mainstream Sunnism has been said to be "about" Sharia, sacred law. In contrast, Shia also follow Islamic law with great "vigilance", but their belief is not defined by law but emphasises "rituals, passion and drama."

-Mutah
(from Wikipedia)

How would each side argue their point regarding the above 3 subjects?

Also what arguments would a Sunni use to support facts that their Ahadith are right, and what would Shias do to support the same?

I know there is a little too much to discuss but just do what you can.

Interesting subject MC, i am not a religious person myself but i have been investigating Shia Islam for a while and i can tell you that there is a lot of misconceptions about the sect and in most major things they are very similar to sunni islam. here are few major differences:

-The succession of the prophet in the Shia faith was supposed to be gone to Ali after the prophet and after him to the other imams (12 in total) the last imam will show up at the end of time (Mahdi).

-Hadith is only approved if it has been narrated by someone who is from within (Al Al Bayt) or the prophets descendants as they are considered the purest people to narrate what the prophet said, while others might have added or removed from the hadiths.

-Fatwas are only given by a few scholars (Marji3) who are considered the highest authority and they are the only ones who can give rulings to new issues that haven't been mentioned in the Quran or Sunna.

-Grouping of prayers is permitted even if you are not traveling so you could pray 3 times a day any day you want.

-Mutah is permitted but there are strict restrictions on it, so its not as easy as some might think.


I think i covered many things .. as for the spirituality and differences in sharia .. i cant comment on that.

i think this is an interesting discussion and hope people from both sides will contribute.

Good topic.

Any answers we give are going to be generalisations, as under each heading there are many sects. Sunni and Shia are actually a family of sects - and there is much that is common between individual sects.

Historically, the division between Shia and Sunni was a political one, not religious - but over time the religious aspects has caused divergence (the original 'Shia' in the time of the first 4 Khalifas did not have a different practice of Islam, but with coming generations there was divergence).

However, even history is now hotly disputed and is at the core of the Sunni/Shia divide.

To answer your 3 questions briefly:
1 . Successor - Sunnis believe the first 4 Khalifas were legitimate, whilst Shia believe only the 4th was the legitimate successor (Ali, may God be pleased with him).

2. All religious sects believe that Islam's laws should be followed - I would not agree with the statement that Sunnis follow the Sharia whilst Shia emphasise rituals - there are Sunni sects that have rituals, and Shia sects that are strict about Sharia. Shia do commemorate certain festivals more 'religiously' than Sunnis - but both view Karballa etc as great tragedies. I am sunni and I have great respect for all the 12 Imams (personally I don't believe the Imams believed/preached what current Shia alims say they did, but that is a different story).

3. Mutah - temporary marriage. This is something that to my knowledge all Sunnis do not agree is an allowable practice, but some Shia sects do allow this. The clincher for me is that there is no record of the Prophet, Khalifas or any of the Shia Imams actually practising this arrangement.


Some more differences of Shia philosophy with my beliefs are:
1. principal of inheritance of leadership
2. infallibility of Imams
3. dietary laws - eg. not eating fish without scales, and not eating crustaceans (closer to Judaic law than generally what other Muslims consider Halal).
4. It is ok to pray to saints for intercession (I think that some Shia may not think this is ok, but the ones I spoke to did).


I've debated with some Shia Alims (scholars) who are from the 12'er tradition. They are very strong on Hadith and can make very good arguments in favour of the Shia beliefs from the books of Hadith used by Sunnis.

However, I found some of the peripheral beliefs of the Shia I spoke to a little strange - eg how at the beginning of mankind's existence, God sent down 'hand maidens' from heaven (houris) to mate with humans and populate the world.

Finally, there are some off shoots of both Sunni and Shia that have quite different beliefs/practices from the mainstream Muslims. There are the dervishes of Turkey - Sufis from a Sunni background (I think) - Ismailis, Druze, Sufis in general and many, many more sects.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:
3. Mutah - temporary marriage. This is something that to my knowledge all Sunnis do not agree is an allowable practice, but some Shia sects do allow this. The clincher for me is that there is no record of the Prophet, Khalifas or any of the Shia Imams actually practising this arrangement.

Don´t Sunni´s have the misyar marriage? Is this comparable with mutah?

Thanks for the input. I should have said this from my first post but I am actually Shia. Admittedly not very knowledgeable but I do know the basics and some of the arguments.For example regarding Muta, there are Ahadith that support the fact that the Prophet did allow it, but it was later stopped by Omar Bin Al Khatab during is Khalifa after the Prophet's death. In addition, there are also Ahadith supporting the Prophet commenting on a group of people, I am not sure exactly how it goes but basically he says "Those are from Shiite Ali". Suggesting that Shias did indeed exist during the prophet's time. Yeah quite vague but my memory isn't the best.

The point of this thread is that I am trying to get a dialog going between knowledgeable Sunnis and knowledgeable Shias. It's hard to get this type of discussion going in real life so these forums should be the next best thing. I unfortunately am not the best person to represent the Shias as I'm still pretty confused myself. My parents are Shia but I was brought up around Sunnis and also classes in school were Sunni influenced.

Regarding your debates with Shia scholars, can I ask what subjects it dealt with specifically and were you able to effectively argue your point?

FD - I have not heard of 'misyar' marriages, I'd be interested in reading about which sects follow this (and what exactly this is).

MC - my debates (or rather discussions) with Shia covered pretty much all the basic differences between Shia and Sunni. I was given a lot of material to read about why the Shia view of the succession should be followed.

I spent a lot of time to understand some of the more contentious beliefs - including Mutah, infalibility of Imams, the belief in a hereditary Imamate etc. The discussions were cordial, but ultimately revolved around Hadith rather than the Quran and Sunnah.

Ultimately the discussions gave me a much better insight into Shia beliefs. We weren't able to agree on the basic issues separating Sunni and Shia.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:FD - I have not heard of 'misyar' marriages, I'd be interested in reading about which sects follow this (and what exactly this is)

I only know this from Saudi´s visiting Dubai and looking for a temporary marriage during their time in Dubai. So I think this is especially practised in KSA. I donot know whether this is something Wahhabi or Sunni in general. Anyways, you can google it, before I say untrue things here.

Quote from Wiki:

In addition to the preceding cases, one can note that wealthy Arab men sometimes enter into a Misyar marriage while on vacation, in order to have sexual relations with another woman without committing the sin of zina. They usually divorce the women once their holiday is over. One should note, however, that if this is understood by both parties at the time of conclusion of the marriage contract (and this is usually the case) this would constitute a fixed time period, effectively making such a marriage invalid in Sunni law, and more akin to the Shia Mut'ah marriage.

/quote

Well, that sounds like prostitution to me - but it's a bit bizare that it requires one of the two parties (presumably the lady) to not know that it will be a temporary arrangement. I mean, how does that work?

So, I stand corrected - temporary marriages may also take place amongst sunnis as well - but I have to say I've never heard of this, let alone know anyone who advocates or practices this.


Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Well, that sounds like prostitution to me

Bingo!

shafique wrote:but I have to say I've never heard of this

You can learn a lot in the wild nightlife of Dubai...quite a common practice here I have to say...

its a common practice everywhere, misyar marriage is one word for it, another is Orfy marriage, also for the same reason...

some dont get married and still sleep around, then at the end of the year go and to mecca for piligramage, and they consider everything forgiven, particularly saudis..

Well - you live and learn!

Cheers,
Shafique

sorry guys but since we are talking about sunnis and shias who exactly are the 12 imams? is this what sunnis believe in or the shias believe in??

anyone??

rudeboy wrote:sorry guys but since we are talking about sunnis and shias who exactly are the 12 imams? is this what sunnis believe in or the shias believe in??

anyone??

Do a Google rudeboy !

The 12 Imams are what a branch of Shia (the main branch) believe in. They are commonly called '12ers' - and the Shia of Iran (Ayotollah Khomeni, Ahmedinejad etc) are all 12ers.

The 12 Imams are who they consider to be the 12 rightly guided leaders of Muslims - the first Imam being Ali, the 4th Khalifa according to Sunnis, and the first true Khalifa (successor) according to all Shia.

The eleven Imams after Ali are all successors and typically the son of the previous Imam. 12ers believe that the 12th Imam did not die but is in 'hiding' and will return in the latter days.

The 12 imams are all considered to be the true rulers of Muslims of their time, and all are considered to be infallible (according to Shia theology).

Now, not all Shia believe in the 12. After the 6th Imam, there were a group of Shia that believed that his first born son Ismael was the 7th Imam, whilst others believed that another son was the rightful heir. The 12ers are in the latter group and say this is the case because Ismael died before his father.

However the first group, now known as Ismailis, continued to believe that the 7th Imam was Ismael. I think they believe he did not die and is in hiding. The current leader of the Ismailis is the Aga Khan.

Even within the Ismaili and 12er streams of shia, there are numerous sects under each. The Druze of Lebanon are an off-shoot of Ismaili shia. There are different shia sects close to here - for example the Yazedi Shia of Yemen.

Now, from my perspective (as a sunni), I believe that the 12 Imams were all pious and saintly scholars of Islam. I believe that some of the teachings that are attributed to some of them (that are theologically different from sunni Islam) are innovations. Historically when the shia broke away, it was a political difference and not theological. The theological differences came much later - many of the beliefs originating in Persia rather than Arabia. However this sunni view is controversial to shia and I emphasise this is my personal view and not what the Shia themselves believe (they believe their practices are the true teachings of Islam as their Imams are infallible representatives of God).

Cheers,
Shafique

heheh i would have googled it but you cant trust some of the websites on google when it comes to Islam .

by the way dont the shias believe that the successor of Muhammad (PBUH) should be a descendant of Muhammad (PBUH)?

rudeboy wrote:heheh i would have googled it but you cant trust some of the websites on google when it comes to Islam .

by the way dont the shias believe that the successor of Muhammad (PBUH) should be a descendant of Muhammad (PBUH)?

Yes - the first Imam was Ali, the son-in-law and cousin of the Prophet, pbuh, and the other Imams were all descendants and hence family members of the prophet, pbuh.



Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:

rudeboy wrote:heheh i would have googled it but you cant trust some of the websites on google when it comes to Islam .

by the way dont the shias believe that the successor of Muhammad (PBUH) should be a descendant of Muhammad (PBUH)?

Yes - the first Imam was Ali, the son-in-law and cousin of the Prophet, pbuh, and the other Imams were all descendants and hence family members of the prophet, pbuh.



Cheers,
Shafique

out of the 11 imams who have come and gone how many of them were shias and sunis? and its a bit ironic that the 12th imam has yet to come and so does Prophet Issa (Jesus) have to come and that to on the day of judgement!!

shafique wrote:

rudeboy wrote:sorry guys but since we are talking about sunnis and shias who exactly are the 12 imams? is this what sunnis believe in or the shias believe in??

anyone??

Do a Google rudeboy !

The 12 Imams are what a branch of Shia (the main branch) believe in. They are commonly called '12ers' - and the Shia of Iran (Ayotollah Khomeni, Ahmedinejad etc) are all 12ers.

The 12 Imams are who they consider to be the 12 rightly guided leaders of Muslims - the first Imam being Ali, the 4th Khalifa according to Sunnis, and the first true Khalifa (successor) according to all Shia.

The eleven Imams after Ali are all successors and typically the son of the previous Imam. 12ers believe that the 12th Imam did not die but is in 'hiding' and will return in the latter days.

The 12 imams are all considered to be the true rulers of Muslims of their time, and all are considered to be infallible (according to Shia theology).

Now, not all Shia believe in the 12. After the 6th Imam, there were a group of Shia that believed that his first born son Ismael was the 7th Imam, whilst others believed that another son was the rightful heir. The 12ers are in the latter group and say this is the case because Ismael died before his father.

However the first group, now known as Ismailis, continued to believe that the 7th Imam was Ismael. I think they believe he did not die and is in hiding. The current leader of the Ismailis is the Aga Khan.

Even within the Ismaili and 12er streams of shia, there are numerous sects under each. The Druze of Lebanon are an off-shoot of Ismaili shia. There are different shia sects close to here - for example the Yazedi Shia of Yemen.

Now, from my perspective (as a sunni), I believe that the 12 Imams were all pious and saintly scholars of Islam. I believe that some of the teachings that are attributed to some of them (that are theologically different from sunni Islam) are innovations. Historically when the shia broke away, it was a political difference and not theological. The theological differences came much later - many of the beliefs originating in Persia rather than Arabia. However this sunni view is controversial to shia and I emphasise this is my personal view and not what the Shia themselves believe (they believe their practices are the true teachings of Islam as their Imams are infallible representatives of God).

Cheers,
Shafique

As I'm curruently reading books about Nizari Ismailis, Aga Khans, its history and beliefs, I've came across the Twelvers commonly called as Ithnā 'asharīyahs (12=Itnash in Arabic). Their are largest group in Shia Islam which includes a small minority of Ismailis, Zaydi, Bohras, Qarmatians...The Ithnā 'asharīyahs tends to call themselves just Shias being the predominant group.

shafique wrote:

rudeboy wrote:heheh i would have googled it but you cant trust some of the websites on google when it comes to Islam .

by the way dont the shias believe that the successor of Muhammad (PBUH) should be a descendant of Muhammad (PBUH)?

Yes - the first Imam was Ali, the son-in-law and cousin of the Prophet, pbuh, and the other Imams were all descendants and hence family members of the prophet, pbuh.



Cheers,
Shafique

Yes, you're right the Shia believe that succeding Imans should be a descendant of Muhammed(PBUH), which makes the first 3 caliph usurpers of the title.

it doesnt make sense to me. alrite u r a shia and you have your own beliefs but what if one of the 12ers was a sunni or he believed that there was one god and muhammad (pbuh) was gods last messenger, what happens then??

Assalamu alaikum wa Rahmatullah,

There is actually nothing in common, whatsoever, between Muslims and Shi'ites except for some terms, phrases and words with the context and meanings being different for each party.

To illustrate, "Allah", "The Messenger" and "The Qur'an" are shared words. However, they do not refer to the same Diety, Prophet & Book. Ayatullah Ni'matullah al-Jazaa'iry, writes in his book "al-Anwaar al-Nu'maniyyah":

ÅäÇ áÇ äÌÊãÚ ãÚåã –Ãí ãÚ Ãåá ÇáÓäÉ –Úáì ÅÇáå¡ æáÇ Úáì äÈí¡ æáÇ Úáì ÅãÇã¡ æÐáß Ãäåã íÞæáæä Åä ÑÈåã åæ ÇáÐí ßÇä ãÍãÏ äÈíå æÎáíÝÊå ãä ÈÚÏå ÃÈæ ÈßÑ. æäÍä áÇ äÞæá ÈåÐÇ ÇáÑÈ æáÇ ÈÐáß ÇáäÈí¡ Èá äÞæá Åä ÇáÑÈ ÇáÐí ÎáíÝÉ äÈíå ÃÈæ ÈßÑ áíÓ ÑÈäÇ æáÇ ÐÇß ÇáäÈí äÈíäÇ) ÇáÃäæÇÑ ÇáäÚãÇäíÉ 2/278 ÈÇÈ äæÑ ÇáÍÞíÞÉ

"We do not share with them (i.e AhluSunnah) the same God, Prophet or a leader, because they claim that their God is He whose Prophet is Muhammad and whose successor is Abu Bakr. As for us, we do not believe in such a God nor in such a Prophet. Rather, we say, that the God whose successor of His prophet is Abu Bakr is not our God nor that Prophet is our Prophet" al-Anwaar al-Nu'maniyyah 2/278

In fact, Shi'ites historians admit to the fact that the founder of Shi'ism is the Jew Abdullah bin Saba'. See for example the books of al-Ash'ari, al-Qummi, al-Kash-shi and al-Nubakhti. They have all reported the following:

æÍßì ÌãÇÚÉ ãä Ãåá ÇáÚáã ãä ÃÕÍÇÈ Úáí Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã Ãä ÚÈÏÇááå Èä ÓÜÜÜÜÈà ßÇä íåæÏíÇ ÝÃÓáã ææÇáì ÚáíÇ Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã æßÇä íÞæá æåæ Úáì íåæÏíÊå Ýí íæÔÚ Èä äæä ÈÚÏ ãæÓì Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ÈåÐå ÇáãÞÇáÉ ÝÞÇá Ýí ÅÓáÇãå ÈÚÏ æÝÇÉ ÇáäÈí Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã ÈãËá Ðáß æåæ Ãæá ãä ÃÔåÑ ÇáÞæá ÈÝÑÖ ÅãÜÜÜÇãÉ Úáí Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã æÃÙåÑ ÇáÈÑÇÁÉ ãä ÃÚÏÇÆå æßÇÔÝ ãÎÇáÝíå Ýãä åäÇß ÞÇá ãä ÎÇáÝ ÇáÔíÚÉ Åä ÃÕá ÇáÑÝÖ ãÃÎæÐ ãä ÇáíåæÏíÉ

"A group of knowledgeable people among the followers of Ali [as] have reported that Abdullah bin Saba' was a Jew who embraced Islam and sided with Ali [as]. While being a Jew, he used to promote (the notion) that Jashua bin Noon was the Successor of Moses. When he converted to Islam, he promoted the same after the death of the Prophet [pbuh] in like manner. He was the first to suggest the imposition of Ali's leadership and publicly denouncing his enemies. Hence, those who oppose the Shi'ites proclaim that the origin of Shi'ism is derived from Judaism.

Even the Holy Qur'an, that is sacred to all Muslims, the Shi'ites claim to have been distorted by the Companions of the Messenger [pbuh]. Hence, they only hold on to 3-5 companions and honor them, while the rest (over 100,000) they denounce and consider them apostates.

AhluSunnah believe that the Messenger [saw] had a Messege to deliever. That is, to spread the Message of Allah. Whem he passed away, he did not leave anyone in-charge. Nor was it part of the Message to appoint a successor. However, the Companions have chosen Abu Bakr [ra] to succeed him due to many factors, such as being his closest Companion, and him being his companion during the imigration from Makkah to Madinah, etc.

The Shi'ites, on the other hand, claim that Allah [swt] has appointed Ali by name in the Qur'an, but the Companions have erased his name to usurp the leadership from him. But they have failed to present a single sound proof that Allah and/or His Messenger has explicitly named Ali to be the successor.

They, furthermore believe, that 11 infallible descendants of Ali were appointed by Allah, the last being the so-called Mahdi, who went into an occultation some 1200 years ago, still alive and runs the universe instead of Allah. In total, the Shi'ites believe in a 14 infallibles co-equal to Allah.

A major difference between the Muslims & the Shi'ites, is that the later divine their Imams and call on them instead of calling on God for help, support, healing, etc.

Temporary Marriage: The Muslims have the consensus that such a marriage was forbidden. It is but a legalized prostitution widely spread among the Shi'ites. In such a marriage, all it takes for the couple is to say a phrase, such as the woman saying: I give you myself as a wife for the period of (half hour, one night, one week, one sexual intercourse or whatever thery may agree on) for the amount of $$$, and the man says: I agree. No witnesses is required nor the presence of her guardian. When the time is up, the contract expires. No divorce, no rights nor financial support is due for her. Nor will the so-called wife inherit him should he dies while in relationship with her. According to their infallibles, a man can have a 1000 women on such a term, not counted part of the 4 wives permitted by Allah.

The so-called Misyaar Marriage, is actually a normal marriage in every sense of the word. However, in such a marriage, the woman would voluntarily drop off one or more of her "Rights", such as the financial support, or her fair sharing of Nights with the other wife. But such a marriage would be registered in the courts to preserve her rights should he dies or divorces her.

While the Mut'ah (Pleasure) or Temporary Marriage is often kept secret from family and friends, especially on the woman's side, Misyaar may be kept secret by the man, such as not informing his wife or his family. But never on the wife's side. Thus, any time is set out for the Marriage is considered forbidden and invalid.

Another major difference between Muslims & Shi'ites, is that Muslims respect and honor the Wives of the Messenger and his Companions, while the Shi'ites dispise, curse, slander and hate them.

Science of Hadith:
The Muslims have kept an excellent record preserving the statements of the Messenger [saw] by developping the science of Hadith to scrutinize true from false statements. No less than 3 centuries later, Shi'ites began to adopt the Muslims' criteria of Hadith. Even though, Shi'ites cannot present a single "Sound" Hadith based on their own criteria. They proudly proclaim," we do not have any authentic Hadith book".

It is worthy to note here, that the so-called "infallible Imams" are pious scholars, and have suffered lies attributed to them by those who claim to be their shi'ites (supporters). Jaber bin Yazid al-Ju'fi, one of the foremost narrators of Shi'i hadith, is said to have narrated some 70,000 narrations from Imam al-Baqir. al-Kash-shi, a grand scholar on Shi'i narrators reports from Imam Ja'far, son of al-Baqir: By Allah, I have never seen Jaber bin Yazid al-Ju'fi with my father, and he may have visited me once or twice.

Never did he meet al-Baqir, and may have visited al-Sadiq once or twice, yet reports 70,000 Hadith from them. Such a person is believed by the Shi'ites, but those who have seen, sat, listened, ate, mingled and fought with the Prophet [pbuh], whom Allah has commended in the Qur'an in various verses, they do not believe them, nor do they accept their narrations.

The fact of the matter is that Shi'ism is a mixture of Jewish, Christian & Zoroastrian religions with Islamic terms for cover up.

May Allah guide us all to what Pleases Him, Amen.

Habib wrote:difference between Muslims & Shi'ites

.

Habib wrote:The fact of the matter is that Shi'ism is a mixture of Jewish, Christian & Zoroastrian religions with Islamic terms for cover up.

Wow, actually never knew that Sunnis donot consider Shi´ites as Muslims.

Nice post Habib,

so Shi'ite will go to hell eventually?

Flying Dutchman wrote:Wow, actually never knew that Sunnis donot consider Shi´ites as Muslims.

they dont really like each other, im very limited of my knowledge of shi'ites, but i know that when a sunni muslim states the population of muslims worldwide, they include the numbers of shi'ites....

in saying that, there's no current conclusive evidence of how many sunnis and how many shi'iates are in the world in terms of population, due to the high concentration in very under-documented areas in terms of proper means of census etc.

I have heard it argued that many of the differences between Shia and Sunni practices of Islam originate from Jewish and Zorastrian traditions.

I'll name two prominent ones:
1. the notion of a priesthood/kingship passed on from father to son
2. some of the dietary laws - eg not eating fish without scales, or crustacea (crabs, lobsters etc)

Both are Jewish customs that found their way into Shia Islam, it is argued.

Also, there is the argument that geo-politically, Shia Islam originated at the fringes of the Islamic empire, not at the core (around Mecca and Medina).

I personally believe that the Imams of the Shia were sincere Muslims and even rank as 'saints'. However, I also believe that later Shia elevated them to the status of infallible representatives of God on earth ('Imam' literally means leader, but has this extra connotation in Shia theology).

I would not say that Shia Muslims are non-Muslim - all who call themselves Muslim cannot be called a non-Muslim in my understanding. However, I am a sunni and do not believe many Shia customs and theology are correct .

Cheers,
Shafique

spoonman wrote:Nice post Habib,

so Shi'ite will go to hell eventually?

Jazaakallah,

The Creed of AhluSunnah is never to judge who goes to hell and who goes to paradise except for those who were named or identified as such by Allah [swt] or his Messenger [saw]. However; we do say that whoever believes, for instance, the Qur'an was tampered with, or slanders the Prophet's wives, has committed an apostacy, and if he dies before repentance his destany is for hell.

Many people think, however, that whoever pronounce the 2 testimonies is a Muslim no matter what. But this is not true. For if we had a Christian embraced Islam and testified there's no god but Allah, and Muhammad is His Messenger, but when it comes to Jesus [as], he insists that he is the son of Allah. In such a case, his testimony of La ilaha illa Allah does him absolutely no good, because he did not meet the prerequisites of La ilaha illa Allah.

And Allah knows best.

Habib wrote:However; we do say that whoever believes, for instance, the Qur'an was tampered with, or slanders the Prophet's wives, has committed an apostacy, and if he dies before repentance his destany is for hell.

so you say Shi'ite did this?

They do much more than that. I simply gave an example. Otherwise, they believe:

1- That their Imams know the unseen: what was, what is, and what will be until the Day of Judgement, contrary to the teaching of the Qur'an: "Say: no one knows the unseen in heavens and on earth but Allah".

2- The pillars of faith for them void of the 2 testimonies. It is replaced with al-Wilaya.

3- They believe in "al-Badaa' " which is basically a Jewish creed, believing that Allah may change His mind.

4- They hold their Imams to a higher rank than the Messengers of Allah

5- They hold tight to the creed of "Tuqya" or "Taqiyya" which is basically nothing but a hypocracy.

6- They believe that AhluSunnah are "Nasibi" (Enemies of Ahlul-Bayt), and as such they (AhluSunnah) are disbelievers and condemned to hell.

7- The list is endless. As I have said, there is NOTHING in common between Muslims and Shi'ites except for words and phrases w/o their context. In fact, it is mandatory for the Shi'ites to do things differently to avoid resembling AhluSunnah.

For more info on the Shi'ites, here is an audio clip of An American Sister who converted from Shi'ism (being a Shi'ite for some 15 years) to Islam. Just click the play button:

http://muslimchristiandialogue.com/modu ... 24&lid=463

Habib let me start off by saying i am not a Shi'a, but your posts are full of incorrect facts and things that are blatantly ignorant statements that are always mentioned by people who are seeking divisions. I dont have the time to rebuff all the points you make (most of them are either flat our incorrect, or deviated from the truth)

My advice is that you spend some time with a Shia person or Imam and listen what they got to say. You will find that all the rhetoric that is repeatedly spread by Sunni Muslims about shia are incorrect. You are free to hold on to your opinions obviously but i really am disheartened to see this intersect hatred, and this translated to the political level where we find arab countries ready to get into alliances with Israel to destroy there muslim brothers.

Again, i stress that you should mingle with Shia and attend there religious sermons if you want to know how they think rather than get it from ignorant sources that make stuff up.

Maaad,

I respect your opinion and you're entitled to it. However, I am ready to delete my posts should you point out a single statement that I cannot support from Shi'i literatures or audios by their Ayatullas.

I just don't know how you figured there's hatred involved therein, when the issue is simply exchaning knowledge on Shi'ites faith. If you, or any reader, feel there's any misinfo presented in my post, you are invited to clear the confusion. But simply to paint the entire post as "full of incorrect facts and things that are blatantly ignorant statements that are always mentioned by people who are seeking divisions." is unacceptable.