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shafique · Mar 30, 2008

freza wrote:yup masturbation is a sin according to Islamic scholars which one assumes they base on the Quran.
And that thing about masturbation being OK when it prevents adultery also left me->

btw, I came upon this phrase of Fayyad ibn Najih:

When the male organ of a man stands erect, two thirds of his intellect go away.

now this is gold!

Believe me this is tame to what is contained in other 'hadith'!

What is written by man, is corrupted by man - a general principle that keeps getting proved every day!

The Quran is one thing - the Hadith is a totally different kettle of fish. There are hadith which tell us how to establish whether they are true or not (yes, Hadith telling us that some hadith will be false - due to people mis-reporting or just plain old telling porkies).

I consider Hadith as a collection of recollections and therefore similar to the Bible. Just as the Bibles of different churches were compiled from previous writings, so were the different collections of Hadith. Just as Biblical verses are subject to interpretation and apparent contradictions, so we find the same in the Hadith. (and as we're on the subject, just like the Bible contains salacious passages about s.e.x... so do the Hadith...)

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Mar 30, 2008

For freza - concerning whether Muhammad, pbuh, admitted his shortcomings/sins and prayed for forgiveness:

‘A’ishah, may Allah be pleased with her, reported:

When Allah’s Messenger [SAWS] occupied himself in the prayer at night, he observed it with such a extended qiyam (posture of standing) until his feet were swollen.

‘A’ishah said: “Allah’s Messenger, you do this in spite of the fact that your earlier and latter sins have been forgiven for you?”

He [SAWS] replied: “‘A’ishah, should I not prove myself to be a thankful servant of Allah?”

[Muslim]

So - this meets your criteria that Prophets should admit their sins and be forgiven by God for them.

(Note that I still consider Muhammad, pbuh, to be sin-less but not mistake-less in his conduct. I remember being told that he is chastised in the Quran for frowning when a blind man interrupted him when he was in discussion with someone, the blind mad did not see this, but the expression of displeasure was considered a 'sin' for someone who needed to show the most excellent of virtues - and he asked for forgiveness for this failing.)

Cheers,
Shafique

spoonman · Mar 30, 2008

ebonics wrote:
shafique wrote:Adultery, incest are sins. Masturbation and slave ownership are not sins.

shafique in my "nekah" travels of trying to find you a literal meaning, i came across countless islamic resources that said masturbation is a very big sin, and that god curses every masturbator.

hadith (378/4) by the "bayhaky) - also confirmed by the asbahany, and mentioned in his book page 206

another hadith said by ismael al basry (633/2) confirms this and says literarly "God destroys whoever plays with his (male) genitals)"

HOWEVER and this is the funny bit,

the tafseer goes through and mentions, that it is ok to mast urbate, in 2 occasions: (even though it just said god destroys a masturbator)

1. if the hand is "haleela" - im not entirely sure what they mean by this word in that context, im guessing it is your wife's hand, which is "mohalala" or permitted to be used on you.

2. if it is going to stop you from committing adultry.................. seriously i dont understand how these people's mind work... isnt the whole point abstaining from having s.e.xual thoughts about someone that isnt yours, and if you're thinking of committing adultry, you're meant to be a strong person and not do that, OR masturbate..... how is this ok??

.بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
والصلاة والسلام على رسول الله وبعد :
أولاً : لا يصح في هذا الباب شيء ومما ورد في هذا :
1 / حديث ( سبعة لا ينظر الله عز وجل إليهم يوم القيامة ولا يزكيهم ويقول ادخلوا النار مع الداخلين الفاعل والمفعول به والناكح يده وناكح البهيمة وناكح المرأة في دبرها وجامع بين المرأة وابنتها والزاني بحليلة جاره ) أخرجه البيهقي في شعب الإيمان ( 4 / 378 ) من طريق مسلمة بن جعفر عن حسان بن حميد عن أنس بن مالك : عن النبي به ، وإسناده ضعيف مسلمة وحسان مجهولان كما قالالحافظ ابن حجر وذكر عن الأزدي أنه ضعف مسلمة قال الحافظ في لسان الميزان ( 6 / 33 ) : ( مسلمة بن جعفر البجلي الأحمسي عن حسان بن حميد عن أنس رضي الله عنه في سب الناكح يده يجهل هو وشيخه وقال الأزدي ضعيف انتهى وفي الثقات لابن حبان مسلمة بن جعفر البجلي الأحمسي من أهل الكوفة روى عن عمرو بن قيس والركين بن الربيع روى عنه عمرو بن محمد العنقزي وأبو غسان النهدي فيحتمل أن يكون هو ثم ظهر أنه هو فقد ذكره بذلك كله البخاري ولم يذكر فيه جرح )
2 / الحديث السابق بنفس اللفظ أخرجه الأصبهاني ( الدقاق ) في مجلس في رؤية الله ( ص 206 ) من طريق عبد الله بن لهيعة عن عبد الرحمن بن زياد بن أنعم عن أبي عبد الرحمن الحبلي عن عبد الله بن عمرو به ، وإسناده ضعيف فيه ابن لهيعة وشيخه عبد الرحمن بن زياد ضعيفان .
3 / حديث ( أهلك الله عز وجل امه كانوا يعبثون بذكورهم ) ذكره في العلل المتناهية ( 2 / 633 ) من طريق إسماعيل البصري قال حدثنا ابو جناب الكلبي عن الخلال بن عمير عن ابي سعيد الخدري به .
وإسناده ضعيف إسماعيل البصري مجهول وأبو جناب ضعيف .
وينظر : سلسلة الأحاديث الضعيفة ( 1 / 490 ) برقم ( 319 ) التلخيص الحبير ( 4 / 381 )
ثانيا : ما يتعلق بحكم المسألة :
الأقوال في الاستمناء :
أولاً : اتفق الفقهاء على جواز الاستمناء إذا كان بيد الحليلة .
ثانياً : اتفق الفقهاء على جواز الاستمناء إن خشي الوقوع في الزنا .
ثالثا : اتفق الفقهاء على تحريم الاستمناء عن كان بيد أجنبية أو أدخل الجنبي إصبعه في فرج امرأة .
رابعاً : اختلفوا فيما سوى الحالات السابقة على ثلاثة أقوال :
القول الأول : التحريم وعليه جمهور العلماء من المالكية والشافعية والحنابلة في المذهب والحنفية وهو اختيار شيخ الإسلام ابن تيمية رحمه الله .
القول الثاني الكراهة وهو قول ابن حزم ورواية عن أحمد .

shafique, searching in arabic is the new black now, you uncover so much more than the english versions let out - i think i need to invest in an arabic keyboard and download the language pack and maybe even get some lessons on how to type in arabic then we can really play some ball.

ebonics, if you have your windows CD (XP or vista) you can easily add the Arabic language in the 'regional and language setting' in control panel.
and then you can use both English and Arabic and switch between them easily.

I'm sure you can buy a keyboard with both English and Arabic character in AD. if you are using a special or a professional keyboard you don't want to change, you might find those transparent Arabic letter stickers which can be sticked to every key on the keyboard.

typing Arabic doesn't need a lesson if you know the Arabic alphabet.
Although letters of every word get attached, unlike south Asian languages you just type every letter and everything automatically get fixed.

ebonics · Mar 30, 2008

typing on arabic for me is like placing an 80 year old infront of a PC for his first time and asking him to type.... takes me about 5 min per word, and i cant work out the back to front way of navigating a mouse, or deleting mistakes.... its very daughnting.

shafique wrote:What is written by man, is corrupted by man - a general principle that keeps getting proved every day!

havent you and flying dutchman established that the quran was also written by man?

but moving on from that,

‘A’ishah, may Allah be pleased with her, reported:

When Allah’s Messenger [SAWS] occupied himself in the prayer at night, he observed it with such a extended qiyam (posture of standing) until his feet were swollen.

‘A’ishah said: “Allah’s Messenger, you do this in spite of the fact that your earlier and latter sins have been forgiven for you?”

He [SAWS] replied: “‘A’ishah, should I not prove myself to be a thankful servant of Allah?”

[Muslim]

isnt this another hadith - that could or could not be accurate? so where do you draw the line of selectiveness of what you want to accept and what you dont? or is it simply personal choice?

spoonman · Mar 30, 2008

Shafique, so you only believe in Quran and choose the hadith that personally suits you or seems reasonable to you? or do you believe in a series of hadith that is defined genuine by a religious figure like a cleric or a famous scholar?

shafique · Mar 30, 2008

spoonman wrote:Shafique, so you only believe in Quran and choose the hadith that personally suits you or seems reasonable to you? or do you believe in a series of hadith that is defined genuine by a religious figure like a cleric or a famous scholar?

Yes - I believe Quran is 100% word of God, the Sunnah (practice of the Prophet, pbuh) comes next in authenticity then come the Hadith. If Hadith are declared genuine by scholars and clerics, then this adds weight to the authenticity, but it does depend on which scholars/clerics and whether there is unanimity amongst all scholars. I would also use my own reasoning if it was a particularly contentious hadith (most aren't).

Hadith themselves were compiled by different people a long time after the events. The compilers themselves said that the Hadith should be treated with caution - they chose one set of criteria, that the chain of narrators was sound, but pointed out that there were still contradictions in the Hadith thus selected.

Therefore there are weak and strong hadith - based on numbers of different people reporting them, the chains of narrators.

However, the simple formula that is contained in many Hadith is the Prophet's saying that if any report reaches you of me contradicting the Quran, reject it as false.

The compilers of the Quran (to their credit) compiled Hadith and gave the reasonings for inclusion. They did not reject Hadith because it contradicted their views of the Quran, but left that to readers to weigh up the merits of each Hadith.

This is no different to choosing which 'hadith' of the Bible to take as literal, which to take as metaphorical and which to reject altogether (some narrations of the Gospels never made it to the canonised book).

All books of Hadith contain strong and weak hadith - so each should be judged on their merits.

One point to bear in mind, there are tens of thousands of hadith out there (may be into the hundreds of thousands), so it is no surprise that there isn't a definitive list of authentic hadith.

(Oh, and yes there are scholars of old and of present day that I will take their views on Hadith being authentic or not - in that I would respect their opinions and read what they have to say on the subject. I am not a scholar of Hadith myself. I respect the opinions of Shia as well as Sunni scholars when it comes to Hadith - although on the core issue of succession to the Prophet, I do not agree with Shia arguments/interpretations of the Hadith on this subject.)

Cheers,
Shafique

spoonman · Mar 30, 2008

ok, so as a Sunni Muslim you are free to choose which religious figure to follow, even if he is from another sect.

and then you must personally believe that the practice of Islam (following Quran, sunnah and hadith) is the best way of life in 2008?

Don't you think that Islam relies heavily on a single culture and time? Do you believe its universal and eternal?

Nucleus · Mar 30, 2008

ebonics wrote:shafique in my "nekah" travels of trying to find you a literal meaning, i came across countless islamic resources that said masturbation is a very big sin, and that god curses every masturbator.

Masturbation is mainly considered big sin among shia scholars.

Nucleus · Mar 30, 2008

Here is a quote from a person who has good knowledge with classical arabic.

Qn: Nikah is a vulgar word?

Ans: The vulgar word is NAIK and it is derived from the root N-Y-K and it means “****ing”. I apologize for that.

Nikah is derived from N-K-Ha and it means s.e.x or s.e.x within the legal boundaries, as used in the Qur’an.

Zawaj is derived from Z-W-J and it means, in the context of marriage, when two people become a unit.

This is my understanding. The Qur’an never used the first one.

************

Another difference between Naik and Nikah is that Naik describes the actual act of "****ing" taking place, while Nikah describes the potential for s.e.x with the understanding that it may happen legally, within the Qur'anic context.

Qn: Objection is why would God use nikah instead of zawaj? In someone's opinion zawaj is a better choice of word.

Ans: I would say that God wanted to make it perfectly clear that s.e.x is fine. If he did not use any word to discuss s.e.x, then people may turn prudish and that is not God's intent when he allowed marriage. There is nothing wrong in talking s.e.x when it affects our lives very deeply.

ebonics · Mar 30, 2008

Nucleus wrote:
ebonics wrote:shafique in my "nekah" travels of trying to find you a literal meaning, i came across countless islamic resources that said masturbation is a very big sin, and that god curses every masturbator.

Masturbation is mainly considered big sin among shia scholars.

they wouldnt quote a hadith, if they were shi'a - as such the above is definatly sunni.

Nucleus · Mar 30, 2008

Shia use and quote hadith too.

ebonics wrote:
Nucleus wrote:
ebonics wrote:shafique in my "nekah" travels of trying to find you a literal meaning, i came across countless islamic resources that said masturbation is a very big sin, and that god curses every masturbator.

Masturbation is mainly considered big sin among shia scholars.

they wouldnt quote a hadith, if they were shi'a - as such the above is definatly sunni.

shafique · Mar 30, 2008

spoonman wrote:ok, so as a Sunni Muslim you are free to choose which religious figure to follow, even if he is from another sect.

and then you must personally believe that the practice of Islam (following Quran, sunnah and hadith) is the best way of life in 2008?

Don't you think that Islam relies heavily on a single culture and time? Do you believe its universal and eternal?

Last question first - no I don't think Islam relies heavily on a single culture. It is a misconception (that is perpetuated by some Muslim scholars as well) that Islam should be stuck in 7th century Arabian culture. But even in the 7th century, Islam was spread to China to the East and the Atlantic coast in the West.

Islam is universal and eternal (it claims to be, and I have satisfied myself that it lives up to these claims).

Islam dictates how people should interact with each other, and also dictates how best to worship God. Humans have not evolved (in my opinion) in terms of social needs or psyche in the past 1600 years. They certainly have not evolved spiritually. Thus the religious principles of Islam are valid today as they were in the 7th century - how one should live one's life and how one should pray haven't changed.

An Indonesian or Chinese or European Muslim will have cultural differences with an Arab Muslim - but they will pray the same and have the same core values. The dress, food, taste in music and language will be different though.

Coming to your second question - yes, I do believe that following the Quran, Sunnah and Hadith is the best way for me to live my life in 2008.

Your first question is about following a religious scholar if they come from another sect. Well, for this there is a famous (and undisputed) Hadith which says that a Muslim should seek knowledge wherever it is found - even if it means going to China. (Sorry, I'm paraphrasing)

Scholars and opinions know no boundaries for me - I look to what is being said first, but will also take note of who is saying it - but I won't reject something because of who is saying it. Similarly, I have been taught not to blindly follow any injunction - we were given brains and logic by God, and He won't ask us to do something that goes against these faculties (this is my strong personal belief, and also what I have been taught).

I also don't limit my sources of knowledge to Islamic sources - Buddha, Krishna, Confucius, Zoroaster (for example) all have valid teachings and I consider them all to be true prophets of God (as the Quran says all peoples were sent prophets).

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Mar 30, 2008

Nucleus wrote:Here is a quote from a person who has good knowledge with classical arabic.

Qn: Nikah is a vulgar word?

Ans: The vulgar word is NAIK and it is derived from the root N-Y-K and it means “****ing”. I apologize for that.

Nikah is derived from N-K-Ha and it means s.e.x or s.e.x within the legal boundaries, as used in the Qur’an.

Zawaj is derived from Z-W-J and it means, in the context of marriage, when two people become a unit.

This is my understanding. The Qur’an never used the first one.

************

Another difference between Naik and Nikah is that Naik describes the actual act of "****ing" taking place, while Nikah describes the potential for s.e.x with the understanding that it may happen legally, within the Qur'anic context.

Thanks Nucleus - I think this settles this particular point - the vulgar word comes from a different root.

Ebonics - can you check and confirm that the above explanations are correct - that the swear words come from a different root word. You may also want to tell the Christian Priests that they can recite the Quran in full now and not to be embarrassed by the word 'Nikah'.

Cheers,
Shafique

freza · Mar 31, 2008

Re: "When the male organ of a man stands erect, two thirds of his intellect go away." actually I think this is a little gem because I think the author is being honest!

Re:

shafique wrote:You ask why should anyone believe the Quran's version of events over the Bible. It comes down to choice.

wow! I would say it comes down to a number of thing including tradition but you can NOT ignored the factoids and the LOGIC. Too choose to ignore facts is to choose ignorance and one has to wonder why people would choose this. What came first, Quran or OT? Why would the Quran mess with both a traditional and historical series of events unless there was something in these events that did not fit Mohammad's prophethood. I go with logic.

shafique wrote:I choose to believe the Quran because it is more internally consistent and it is compatible with my logic - that God will choose the best of people at the time to be His prophets, and they will serve as models and will show how to live without contradicting God's laws.

consistent? i think it's anything but consistent. you believe whatever you like of course, but I wonder, why has faith been indoctrinated so much in you that you refuse to question anything about your religion? have you ever even questioned? have you ever observed it from the outside in?

shafique wrote:I consider Hadith as a collection of recollections and therefore similar to the Bible.

comparing the Bible to Hadiths is plain ridiculous. The Bible is a historical book with historical significance, it's the holy book shared in part by two religions and main principle of one. The issue of the apocryphal books has been discussed to death and if you don't "get it" at this point you're just "choosing" to not understand.

shafique wrote:Today I believe that economic slavery can be just as bad a chattel slavery - in fact today the biggest problems are down to effective economic slavery/exploitation. Islam says that whenever one is a position of power one needs to act with justice, kindness and kinship (treat people as you would treat your family).

huh? war captives, slaves, family...

Edited: correction on OT typo

Nucleus · Mar 31, 2008

Can you check this in lane's lexicon?

shafique wrote:
Nucleus wrote:Here is a quote from a person who has good knowledge with classical arabic.

Qn: Nikah is a vulgar word?

Ans: The vulgar word is NAIK and it is derived from the root N-Y-K and it means “****ing”. I apologize for that.

Nikah is derived from N-K-Ha and it means s.e.x or s.e.x within the legal boundaries, as used in the Qur’an.

Zawaj is derived from Z-W-J and it means, in the context of marriage, when two people become a unit.

This is my understanding. The Qur’an never used the first one.

************

Another difference between Naik and Nikah is that Naik describes the actual act of "****ing" taking place, while Nikah describes the potential for s.e.x with the understanding that it may happen legally, within the Qur'anic context.

Thanks Nucleus - I think this settles this particular point - the vulgar word comes from a different root.

Ebonics - can you check and confirm that the above explanations are correct - that the swear words come from a different root word. You may also want to tell the Christian Priests that they can recite the Quran in full now and not to be embarrassed by the word 'Nikah'.

Cheers,
Shafique

ebonics · Mar 31, 2008

what nucleus posted sounds accurate enough, only nika in the vulgur sense is derived from the one used in the quran... not from a different root word.

the quran definatly never used the first one in its slang term, i never claimed so.

the comment about god telling people sex is fine, did he really have to spell it out? were they that thick? isnt it already known that if a man and woman marry they reproduce, or was it news to them before the quran? :lol:

i still maintain zawag is more appropriate, as that word as flying dutchman said, could be offensive to some, definatly not a holy word for a god to be using in a holy sense... since saying "penetrate two, three or four" can sound ok for a male, but how does that sit with a female, and indeed this has been brought up to debate on tv by muslim women before.

but as you guys always say, allah knows best.... i just happen to disagree with him.

shafique · Mar 31, 2008

freza wrote:
Re:
shafique wrote:You ask why should anyone believe the Quran's version of events over the Bible. It comes down to choice.
wow! I would say it comes down to a number of thing including tradition but you can NOT ignored the factoids and the LOGIC. Too choose to ignore facts is to choose ignorance and one has to wonder why people would choose this. What came first, Quran or OT?

What came first, the OT or the NT?

Why should we believe that the NT supersedes the OT? Why should a Jew believe your interpretations and reject the OT when it says Elijah needs to descend bodily from heaven and the Messiah needs to banish wars (rather than turn up, preach peace and then a few decades later the Romans ransack Jerusalem).

Is not choice? You choose to believe a later scripture that supersedes the previous one. So do I.

freza wrote:Why would the Quran mess with both a traditional and historical series of events unless there was something in these events that did not fit Mohammad's prophethood. I go with logic.

Because the events were corrupted. Lot did not sleep with his daughters according to the Quran.

You can choose to believe that a Prophet of God got drunk and slept with his daughters, I choose to believe the Quran's account.

For me, this is logical. You have a different set of values.

(note that Muslims can also be very possessive of dubious writings and let go of logic - look at the discussion I'm having with Habib - I am discarding a Hadith and he thinks it is the truth)

freza wrote:
shafique wrote:I choose to believe the Quran because it is more internally consistent and it is compatible with my logic - that God will choose the best of people at the time to be His prophets, and they will serve as models and will show how to live without contradicting God's laws.
consistent? i think it's anything but consistent. you believe whatever you like of course, but I wonder, why has faith been indoctrinated so much in you that you refuse to question anything about your religion?

I have not found any inconsistencies. You may find it inconsistent.

I see you as acting just like Jews who reject Jesus by using the Bible and insisting that they know more about the Biblical prophecies than Christians do. I'm sure Jews think they are right.

freza wrote: have you ever even questioned? have you ever observed it from the outside in?

Are you serious? Of course I have questioned - I laid it out in a separate thread inviting people to show contradictions and I dealt with all of them to my own satisfaction (if not yours).

I have no problem quoting the Quran, yet when I have asked you for Biblical criteria for prophethood it took about 50 posts for you to quote the Bible.

freza wrote:
shafique wrote:I consider Hadith as a collection of recollections and therefore similar to the Bible.
comparing the Bible to Hadiths is plain ridiculous. The Bible is a historical book with historical significance, it's the holy book shared in part by two religions and main principle of one. The issue of the apocryphal books has been discussed to death and if you don't "get it" at this point you're just "choosing" to not understand.

There is no difference between Hadith and the Bible. Both contain some words of God, both contain corruptions. Both are historical documents, both have had 'accepted' hadith compiled into books and both have had reports rejected.

Both were written/compiled after the events in question and by people who weren't there directly.

I can't see how they are different.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Mar 31, 2008

ebonics wrote:what nucleus posted sounds accurate enough, only nika in the vulgur sense is derived from the one used in the quran... not from a different root word.

the quran definatly never used the first one in its slang term, i never claimed so.

ebonics - you said that 'neek' was a slang word and was derived from Nikah. Now you can see that this was a wrong statement to make. Neek/Naik come from a different root.

Similarly you said that 'entihoo' literally meant 'f...king' whereas now we know it does not literally mean this (for it does not come from the root 'nyk' but from the root 'nkh') - so here too I would expect you to take back the accusation (I'll put it down to an error of the root of the word).

You are saying that 'nikah' is a vulgar word - however, it is not in Classical arabic as it does not mean 'f..k'.

For me, I am glad that we have been able to clear this up and now know that there are two different words in Arabic and should not be mixed up. The Quranic choice of words are not vulgar at all in Classical Arabic.

ebonics wrote:the comment about god telling people s.e.x. is fine, did he really have to spell it out? were they that thick? isnt it already known that if a man and woman marry they reproduce, or was it news to them before the quran?

Well, given that the Christian Church does believe that s.e.x. is shameful whereas we don't believe Jesus ever taught this - then yes, it is important for God to spell this out and prevent Mullahs making the mistakes that the Catholic Church made (note that Celibacy and the whole s.e.x is shameful theology came a long time after Jesus and was started by men interpreting the Bible).

God making it clear in the Quran that .s.e.x is not shameful is another example of the Quran being more completed than the Bible.

ebonics wrote:i still maintain zawag is more appropriate, as that word as flying dutchman said, could be offensive to some, definatly not a holy word for a god to be using in a holy sense... since saying "penetrate two, three or four" can sound ok for a male, but how does that sit with a female, and indeed this has been brought up to debate on tv by muslim women before.

Zawag is wedding - and does not include the act of legal s.e.x. which is what Nikah also incorporates. Furthermore Nikah is not an offensive word in classical arabic but a polite way of saying 'Marriage that will be consumated'.

I think you confusion was thinking that Neek/Naik had the same root as 'Nikah' - now that we know that 'Nikah' does NOT literally mean 'f..k' we don't have any disagreement.

Cheers,
Shafique

ebonics · Mar 31, 2008

ويظهر ولع العرب بالجنس في لغتهم التي احتوت على أسماء لا حصر لها للعضو التناسلي عند المرأة وفي أوصافه كذلك. وحتى عملية الممارسة الجنسية أعطوها اسماء تختلف من حيوان للأخر. فقالوا مثلاً: نكح الإنسان، وكام الفرس، وباك الحمار، وقاع الجمل، ونزا التيس والسبع، وعاظل الكلب، وسفد الطائر، وقمط الديك (فقه اللغة للثعالبي). أما نكاح المرأة فقد تفننوا في تسميته. فقالوا: باضعها، وذخمها، وخجأها، ووطأها، وناكها، ونكحها، وقيل للتزوج نكاح لأنه سبب الوطء المباح (لسان العرب). ومن شدة غرامهم بالنكاح فقد وصفوا نزول المطر على الأرض به، فقالوا: نكح المطر الأرض، ونكح النعاس عينيه. بل قالوا: ناك المطر الأرض وناك النعاس عينيه (لسان العرب). وهناك كلمات مثل (بؤأ الرجل) إذا نكح. والباءة هي النكاح. وقالوا: ضرب الفحل ضراباً إذا نكح. وضربت الناقة: شالت بذنبها فضربت فرجها فمشت، وهي ضارب (القاموس المحيط للفيروزآبادي).
ثم وصفوا نوعية النكاح بأوصاف مختلفة، فقالوا: ارتطم الرجل: إذا نكح بكل ذكره. والمرأة الرطوم: هي المرأة الضيقة الجهاز والضيقة الحِياء (بكسر الحاء) من النوق (القاموس المحيط). وقالوا: رطمها، يرطمها رطماً: إذا نكحها، وتستعمل للمرأة والأتان (الحمارة). (لسان العرب). وامرأة رطوم: امرأة واسعة الجهاز كثيرة الماء (عكس التعريف الأول). وقال أبو عمرو: الرطوم: الضيقة الحياء من النوق وهي من النساء الرتقاء. (الرتقاء تعني امرأة لا خرق لها إلا للبول. ولذلك يصعب جماعها).
وقالوا كذلك: شفتن: يعني جامع ونكح.
ولحبِ، يلحبُ: يعني نكح.
وقال سيبويه: ذقطها ذقطاً: يعني نكحها. والذاقط: الذباب الكثير السفد. وذقط الطائر أنثاه، يذقطها ذقطاً: يعني سفدها. (لسان العرب لابن منظور).
والنيك معروف، والفاعل نائك والمفعول به منيك ومنيوك. والانثى منيكة. والنيّاك: الكثير النيك، شُدد للكثرة. ولكن عندمل يقولون: تنايك القوم، فإنهم يقصدون: غلبهم النعاس. وتنايكت الأجفان: غلبها النعاس وانطبق بعضها على بعض (لسان العرب). حتى الجفن الأعلى عندما ينزل على الجفن الأسفل يذّكّر العرب بالجنس لأن أحدهما فوق الأخر.
أما عضو المرأة التناسلي فقد فاز بقصب السبق في عدد الكلمات العربية التي تسميه وتصفه. فغير الكلمات المعروفة مثل المهبل والفرج، نجد كلمات تصف ضيقه ووسعه وجفافه ورطوبته. فنجد مثلاً: الهن، بفتح الهاء، والحر، بكسر الحاء، وكلاهما يعني الفرج. أما الضلفع: فهي المرأة الواسعة الهن (القاموس المحيط ولسان العرب). وكذلك الخجام: المرأة الواسعة الهن. والمرأة الرهوى والرهو: هي المرأة الواسعة الهن. وقد أنشد ابن بري الشاعر:
لقد ولدت أبا قابوس رهو **** نؤوم الفرج حمراء العجان
وكلمة الرهو أصلاً تعني مستنقع الماء. وقال أبو سعيد: هو ما اطمأن (انخفض) من الأرض وارتفع ما حوله. وهو الحوبة تكون في محلة القوم يسيل إليها المطر. وفي الصحاح:( يسيل فيها المطر.) والرمز إلى فرج المرأة بالأرض المنخفضة التي يسيل فيها المطر، يُظهر مكانة المرأة عند العربي.
وهناك كذلك كلمات مثل الحفش، بكسر الحاء، وتعني الهن (لسان العرب). ومن الكلمات التي يصعب نطقها نجد: المعرنفط، وتعني الهن كذلك. وقد أنشد إعرابي لرجل قالت له امرأته وقد كبر:
يا حبذا ذباذبك *** إذا الشباب غالبك
فأجابها:
يا حبذا معرنفطك *** إذ أنا لا أفرّطك
والفلفق من النساء هي الرطبة الهن. (لسان العرب).
وكانوا يشتمون بأسماء الفرج، فيقولون إذا أرادوا سب رجلٍ: يا ابن الخجام. والخجام هي المرأة الواسهة الهن.
أما النيزج فهو جهاز المرأة إذا نزا بظره، أي انتصب بظره.
والشفلح هو الهن أو الحِر الغليظ الحروف المسترخي، العظيم الشفتين المسترخيها. والمرأة الضخمة الأسكتين، الواسعة.
أما الزردان فهو الهن لأنه يزدرد الأيور، أو أنه يزردها لضيقه (القاموس المحيط)
والبيظة: تعني الرحم. قال الشاعر يصف القطا يحمل الماء إلى أطفاله:
حملن لها مياهاً في الأداوي **** كما يحملن في البيظ الفظيظا
والفظيظ هو ماء الرجل. فشبه حملهن الماء في مناقيرهن كحمل المرأة ماء الرجل في رحمها
أما الإسب: فهو شعر الفرج أو الأست (القاموس المحيط).
والرّكب: هو العانة أو الفرج، لأن الرجل يركب عليه
الميقاب: الرجل الكثير الشرب للماء أو المرأة الواسعة الفرج (القاموس المحيط)
الدمّاج أو الدّماح: هو الفرج
السفطاح، بكسر السين: الناقة الرحيبة الفرج
الضاد: فرج المرأة (القاموس المحيط) وربما لهذا سموا اللغة العربية "لغة الضاد" وليس كما يقولون "لأن حرف الضاد لا يوجد في لغة أخرى".
الشفر أو الشفير: حرف الفرج
العُقر، بضم العين: دية الفرج المغصوب
الكُظر، بضم الكاف: حرف أو طرف الفرج
الطنبريز، كزنجبيل: فرج المرأة
القحفليز، كزنجبيل: فرج المرأة
أبو دراس: فرج المرأة
الأكبس: الفرج الناتئ أي البارز
العضارطي، بضم العين: الفرج الرخو والأست
العُمارطي، بضم العين: فرج المرأة العظيم
التوليص: النكاح خارج الفرج
الدعظ: إدخال الذكر في الفرج كله. ويقولون: دعظها به ودعظها فيه.
البُضع، بضم الباء: الجماع أو الفرج نفسه
المرأة اللطفاء: اليابسة الفرج والمهزولة والصغيرة الفرج (القاموس المحيط)
الرفغ: الإبط وما حول فرج المرأة.
المرفوغة: المرأة الصغيرة الهن، لا يصل إليها الرجل
استحصف الفرج: ضاق ويبس عند الجماع
الرشوف: المرأة الطيبة الفم اليابسة الفرج
التلجيف: الحفر في جوانب البئر وإدخال الذكر في نواحي الفرج
الخاق باق: صوت الفرج عند الجماع
الخفق: تغييب القضيب في الفرج
الخفوق: الأتان الواسعة الدبر والتي يُسمع صوت حيائها، وكذا المرأة.
القرن: ظهر فرج المرأة
العفلق: الفرج الواسع الرخو (لا علاقة لهذا الإسم بحزب البعث)
الخشنفل: فرج المرأة
الفَعل، بفتح الفاء: حياء الناقة وفرج كل أنثى
الفلهم، كجعفر: فرج المرأة والبئر الواسعة
الكين: لحم باطن الفرج أو غدد فيه كأطراف النوى، وتعني كذلك البظر
اللخن: قبح ريح الفرج
ونسبة لهوس العرب بالجنس فقد استعملوه في الهجاء، كما قال جرير يهجو أم الفرزدق:
عجوز قد زنت ستين عاماً *** وعاشت بعد ذلك أربعينا
فراحت واشترت تيساً وعنزاً *** لتنظر لذة المتناكحينا

وحتى ذكر الحصان لم يفلت من مفردات اللغة العربية، فنظموا فيه شعراً واخترعوا كلمات تصفه وهو قائم أو مسترخي. فقد أنشد شمر اللعين المنقري يصف ذكر حصان كان منتصباً، فقال:
وقاسِحٍ كَعمُودِ الأَثْلِ يَحْفِزُه * دَرْكاً حِصان، وصُلْب غَيْر مَعْرُوقِ
مِثْل الهِراوة مِيثام، إِذا وقَبَتْ * في مَهْبِلٍ، صادَفَتْ داء اللخاقِيقِ
واللخاقيق هي الشقوق الضيقة
وقالت العرب: استخق الفرس، واخق وامتخض، إذا استرخى ذكره (لسان العرب).

فهذا الشعب العربي المولع بالجنس وبأعضاء المرأة التناسلية لدرجة أنه أعطى هذا العضو أسماء تفوق في عددها أسماء السيف الذي يفتخر به العربي، والذي كان يمارس الجنس بشبه مشاعية كادت تفوق مشاعية الجنس في العالم الغربي في العصور الحديثة، ما الذي تغير وجعله من أكثر الشعوب كبتاً وتحسراً على الجنس؟ لا اعتقد أن الإسلام كما كان في أيام محمد هو السبب. فقد حاول الإسلام في زمن النبي أن يبيح لهم الجنس كما شاءوا من تعدد الزوجات وملك اليمين وزواج المتعة، وجعل إثبات جريمة الزنا من المستحيلات حتى يسهل على النساء ممارسة الجنس مع غير الزوج إذا لم يكن الزوج كافياً لاشباعهن. فما الذي حل بهذا الشعب العربي وجعله محروماً من الجنس، لا تختلط نساؤه برجاله ولا يرى الرجال النساء إطلاقاً، حتى في غرفة النوم التي لا يحق للرجل أن يرى فيها زوجته عارية تماماً، وإلا غضب الله عليه ولعنته الملائكة، كما قال الشيخ علي جمعة، مفتي مصر حديثاً. لماذا تعنست نساؤهم وكاد شبابهم أن يشيب قبل أن يقدم على الزواج وإشباع رغبته الجنسية؟
إنهم الفقهاء الذين حرّموا ما أحل الدين للناس وجعلوا الإسلام دينَ عسر بعد أن قال نبيه إنه دين يسر. الفقهاء الذين لا عمل لهم ينفعهم أو ينفع غيرهم في المجتمع، الذين كرسوا كل وقتهم لدراسة الحيض والاستحاضة، والطهارة من البول والنجاسة، وعذاب القبر والثعبان الأقرع. إنهم الفقهاء الذين سجنوا الأعضاء التناسلية عند المرأة والرجل كما سجنوا العقول. فقد كبتوا الرجال والنساء حتى وصل الكبت حد الانفجار كما حدث في قاهرة المعز عندما تحرش الشباب بالفتيات، المحجبات والسافرات، في محاولة منهم للتنفيس عن الكبت الذي يعانون منه. وهذه مجرد البداية والانفجار قادم لا محالة. وإذا لم تنفجر المجتمعات العربية فسوف تصبح تدريجياً مثل دول الخليج التي تعنست نساؤها وتضاعفت بها أعداد النساء العربيات من المغرب والجزائر والعراق ومصر وغيرها، والنساء الأجنبيات من روسيا ودول شرق أوربا، اللاتي تجبرهن عصابات الدعارة المنظمة على بيع أجسادهن لشباب محروم لايستطيع تكاليف الزواج ولا يستطيع ممارسة الحب مع بنات بلده، أو لشيوخ ورجال أعمال أغنياء ما عادت تثيرهم نساؤهم المترهلات.
هل من أمل في أن يفهم القرضاويون والوهابيون والمتعممون من إيران والعراق ومصر والسودان واليمن أن محاولاتهم تكحيل المجتمعات العربية بفرض حجاب أسود من لون الكحل ذاته، قد أعمت المجتمع العربي فراح يتخبط دون رؤية، وأخصت الدين الذي يحاولون، كذباً، إحياءه، بل أماتوه إلا من الطقوس التي ظلوا يتشبسون بها بعد أن فقدوا الجيل الجديد من الشباب؟ لا أعتقد أن هناك أي أمل لهذا الشعب إلا إذا تمردوا على المعممين وأباحوا الاختلاط في المدارس والجامعات وباشروا تدريس ابجديات الجنس في المدارس حتى لا يتخبط الشباب في جهله عن الجنس ويخيل إليهم إذا رأوا الجفن الأعلى نازلاً على الجفن الأسفل أنه ينكحه

كامل النجار
الحوار المتمدن -

one day i will translate this word for word, even though there's not enough words in the english language or vocab to describe what is going on in there..

its talking about the use of the word "s.e.x" nekah in the arabic language and the fascination of arabs with s.e.x. and every strange word that emerged thereof. awesome read

the arabs made a seperate word for the genitals of every animal, and it goes through and lists a few.... this is actually one of the funniest pieces i ever read

ebonics · Mar 31, 2008

shafique wrote:
ebonics wrote:what nucleus posted sounds accurate enough, only nika in the vulgur sense is derived from the one used in the quran... not from a different root word.

the quran definatly never used the first one in its slang term, i never claimed so.

ebonics - you said that 'neek' was a slang word and was derived from Nikah. Now you can see that this was a wrong statement to make. Neek/Naik come from a different root.

Similarly you said that 'entihoo' literally meant 'f...king' whereas now we know it does not literally mean this (for it does not come from the root 'nyk' but from the root 'nkh') - so here too I would expect you to take back the accusation (I'll put it down to an error of the root of the word).

You are saying that 'nikah' is a vulgar word - however, it is not in Classical arabic as it does not mean 'f..k'.

For me, I am glad that we have been able to clear this up and now know that there are two different words in Arabic and should not be mixed up. The Quranic choice of words are not vulgar at all in Classical Arabic.

firstly, i didnt say anything about entihoo

and my first statement i still maintain is correct, it doesnt come from a different word, and i am certain of what im saying.

regarding catholics making s.e.x a bad thing, that was their own man made idiology - which has no basis whatsoever, doesnt mean the rest of the sects follow that.

tell me sunni's and shi'a's dont have man made ideoligies, we already talked about making the hijab a fairda.... which is total bull.

shafique · Mar 31, 2008

ebonics wrote:
firstly, i didnt say anything about entihoo

and my first statement i still maintain is correct, it doesnt come from a different word, and i am certain of what im saying.

Ok, let us look at your first statement (which was talking about v 4.3):

ebonics wrote:do you knwo what the arabic version says shafique? "ENKAHOO" is the word used, which literarly, means f.u.c.k...... again i question God's wisdom in using such a word.

So, were you talking about 'enkahoo' which is derived from nkH and does not literally mean 'f..k'?

(sorry I typed this as entihoo - you can tell I don't speak Arabic).

This was your first statement - if you agree this is wrong, then we have no disagreement. (And I remind you that I posted what the root of Enkahoo was and stated that it did not mean f..k')

ebonics wrote:regarding catholics making s.e.x a bad thing, that was their own man made idiology - which has no basis whatsoever, doesnt mean the rest of the sects follow that.

Ok - we agree on this as well.

ebonics wrote:tell me sunni's and shi'a's dont have man made ideoligies, we already talked about making the hijab a fairda.... which is total bull.

Yes they do have man made ideologies. I denounce those as well.

Cheers,
Shafique

ebonics · Mar 31, 2008

so instead of f..k replace that with penetrate...

really achieves the same result, its still beyond me why zawag isnt used.

if you ask my fiance, and tell her God says:

"penetrate two, three, four" and goes on to go "and whatever your right hand possessed"

she'd back hand you with her handbag

and most have some really large metal bits on it, so i wouldnt recommend you do that.

ill have to draw the line here, my daily productivity dropped something shocking... and my work is now piled up further than i can see..

shafique · Mar 31, 2008

ebonics wrote:so instead of f..k replace that with penetrate...

Why skirt around the issue - it means to marry, and have legal s.e.x.

It does not mean 'f...k'.

Therefore your original statement is wrong.

ebonics wrote:really achieves the same result, its still beyond me why zawag isnt used.

Groundhog day!

S.e.x is not shameful and the previous posts clearly state why s.e.x was included in the definition.

I merely brought you up on your accusation that the Quran used a profane swear word. Now that we have exposed this as an untruth, you are changing the argument. Look at what you wrote - you said why did God use this kind of language - you did not say why did God decide to say 'marry and have legal s.e.x'.

On Friday, on page 6 of this thread you said:

ebonics wrote:i actually take offence to calling me a liar,

ask any arabic speaker what does "neek", "neyaka" , "nak" - which is used heavily in egyptian, lebanese dialects, all mean.... they all derive from the same word, that i repeat, the LITERAL meaning thereof is the act of s.e.x...

the fact that the quran then changed what the literal meaning of that word is, does not change its literal meaning.

We did ask an Arabic speaker and they informed us that all the words you listed are from nyk and not nkh. You were trying to convince me that they derive from the 'same word' (nkh).

So, do you take back the above comments and confirm that what you wrote was wrong?

ebonics wrote:if you ask my fiance, and tell her God says:

"penetrate two, three, four" and goes on to go "and whatever your right hand possessed"

Except, what God said was 'marry' - you have conceded this. Sorry - must try harder.

Cheers,
Shafique

ebonics · Mar 31, 2008

shafique wrote:Groundhog day!

you're an expert in putting words in my mouth, i do not fully agree with what nucleus said - i said for the most part it is true, and i still maintain it means penetrate in the s.e.xual sense IN A LITERAL WAY. not mary, then penetrate...

stop taking me away from work shafique!

shafique · Mar 31, 2008

No problem ebonics. I think there is enough material above for people to make up their own minds.

I'm happy to move on to other topics.

cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman · Mar 31, 2008

Went over the thread again...one more question came to mind. Why are we writing s.e.x. with dots?

shafique · Mar 31, 2008

Flying Dutchman wrote:Went over the thread again...one more question came to mind. Why are we writing s.e.x. with dots?

Because if you don't it gets displayed as 'love' - see s.e.x and sex.

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman · Mar 31, 2008

shafique wrote:Because if you don't it gets displayed as 'love' - see s.e.x and love.

Yeah, buy why? Is the word s.e.x. offensive or insulting? Why can´t we use it? It is a normal word no? Also used in the Quran. That´s what a main portion of this thread is about. S.e.x.ual intercourse is supposed to be non-offensive...

shafique · Mar 31, 2008

Flying Dutchman wrote:
shafique wrote:Because if you don't it gets displayed as 'love' - see s.e.x and love.

Yeah, buy why? Is the word s.e.x. offensive or insulting? Why can´t we use it? It is a normal word no? Also used in the Quran. That´s what a main portion of this thread is about. S.e.x.ual intercourse is supposed to be non-offensive...

Don't know why - a question for the owners of this forum (I guess it is a setting in the forum software to translate certain words).

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman · Mar 31, 2008

shafique wrote:a question for the owners of this forum

Ok, I asked. So according to you this translation shouldn´t be necessary? I think it might be iot prevent problems with Etisalat, but I will wait for the answer.

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