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In the Quran/Biblical Integrity thread:

freza wrote:For example: Muslims say that Mohammad was an (the) exemplary prophet. I say, he didn't even meet the basic criteria for what makes a true prophet when prophets before him met challenges and requirements of attestation but he didn't. I get the feeling you will reply with: "he didn't have to, he was special - the Quran says so."

My answer is that Muhammad, pbuh, does need to meet the 'basic criteria for what makes a true prophet'.

My contention is that he does meet all the criteria. But as freza raised this, I will let her state the criteria and why she states that Muhammad, pbuh, does not meet these.

I have suggested we take the Bible as a common frame of reference for these criteria - for there are verses which prophecise the coming of future prophets and also how to recognise them. We also have the narratives of what 'true prophets' said and did. Therefore we have both the criteria and the examples to refer to.

I think it would be more orderly to look at one criterion at a time, but I'm happy to let freza decide whether to address a number at a time or singly.

Cheers,
Shafique

ah, interesting!

I just have some basic questions to start..

When Mohammad first had his other-worldy visions, why did he doubt that it was God who was speaking to him? Why did he need reassurance of his wife to convince him that he was dealing with the divine?

Who were the witnesses of Mohammad's status as God's messenger? Saying he has a message from God is one thing, but proving it? How? What did he do that proved he wasn't just a regular person with a vivid imagination?

freza wrote:ah, interesting!

I just have some basic questions to start..

When Mohammad first had his other-worldy visions, why did he doubt that it was God who was speaking to him? Why did he need reassurance of his wife to convince him that he was dealing with the divine?

Simply a natural human reaction. What would you do if an unseen voice talks to you and asks you to recite/read!?

You must also realise that prior to being called to prophethood Muhammad, pbuh, was a shy, modest person who chose solitude/meditation rather than more mundane passtimes. He showed no political or social aspirations - choosing to give away wealth rather than amass it.

freza wrote:Who were the witnesses of Mohammad's status as God's messenger? Saying he has a message from God is one thing, but proving it? How? What did he do that proved he wasn't just a regular person with a vivid imagination?

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand. Can you perhaps give me an example from say the life of Moses or Jesus when you say 'witness' or 'prove'.

How did Moses prove himself to be a prophet to Pharaoh, or how did Jesus prove he was the Messiah to the Pharisees and Priests?

I guess we will come to what Muhammad, pbuh, did do when you list what a true prophet should do and we examine whether he did that or not. The Bible is pretty clear on how to recognise a true prophet and distinguish from a person with a vivid imagination or one who is just ill/has epilepsy.

Cheers,
Shafique

another case where common sense prevails


i wouldnt accept a womaniser as a prophet, regardless of who says what.

shafique wrote:Sorry, I'm not sure I understand. Can you perhaps give me an example from say the life of Moses or Jesus when you say 'witness' or 'prove'.

jesus raised dead shafique

he was raised from the dead

jesus' body isnt on this earth, muhammads is... what else proof do you want?

Thanks ebonics.

Did all the Jewish people accept Jesus after he raised Lazarus from the dead? How about the Romans?

Ebonics - I uncovered in the other thread that the Coptic Bible has some extra books in the New Testament - as you were a Coptic Christian, do you know which books these are (being lazy here, but I'm hoping you can save me looking this up).

As for the 'womaniser' comment - I take it that anyone who has more than one wife cannot be a prophet in your eyes. Fair enough - but that would rule out Abraham as a prophet for one (and not to mention Solomon and David). Do you really believe these weren't prophets?

Oh, and also you seem to be confusing the fact that I do believe Jesus was a prophet of God and was asking for criteria to judge a true prophet. Being bodily transported to heaven isn't generally a criterion for prophethood - for only Elijah and Jesus (according to the Bible) would qualify. Do you believe Elijah will come down bodily?

Cheers,
Shafique

What about miracles? I am not sure about this, but at least most prophets of the OT and Jesus of course performed miracles. As far as I know Mohammed didn´t.

Flying Dutchman wrote:What about miracles? I am not sure about this, but at least most prophets of the OT and Jesus of course performed miracles. As far as I know Mohammed didn´t.

Sure - miracles are certainly a feature of prophets, but I'm not sure they are a criterion. However they are typically not seen as miracles by the opponents of prophets, and to my knowledge performing of miracles is not a Biblical criterion for the truthfulness of a prophet.

But, for the record, Muhammad, pbuh, is recorded as performing miracles. One is where a bowl of milk was shared via a large number of people.

Another interesting one is where he pointed to the moon and it appeared to split into two. I read that this phenomenon was also recorded in India by a ruler of the time, so there is some corroborating evidence that this is the case. Prior to this, the records relied on the fact that the opponents of Islam did not dispute that this account was false.

That said, I do not view miracles as a definitive sign of prophethood.

Most Muslims will say that the biggest miracle is the Quran.

A quick Google came up with this list (I don't vouch for it as I'm not sure who they are, but a quick glance down shows the miracles that I'm aware of - and one's I wasn't aware of, eg curing a blind person. Some of the hadith are questionable, but I give you the list to make your own mind up).

http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Muhammad- ... hammed.htm

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Simply a natural human reaction. What would you do if an unseen voice talks to you and asks you to recite/read!?

I would ask: who are you???!!!

shafique wrote:You must also realise that prior to being called to prophethood Muhammad, pbuh, was a shy, modest person who chose solitude/meditation rather than more mundane passtimes. He showed no political or social aspirations - choosing to give away wealth rather than amass it.

Yes he was shy and modest, but was it because that's what he wanted or because that was his condition in that particular phase of his life? I disagree about your statements of his lack of aspirations. I think that sometimes his aspirations were very significant motivations, his first such aspiration might very well have been his marriage to Khadija - a rich widow.

If none other but God makes contact with a human prophet-to-be, would he leave any doubt that he was God?

That Mohammad questioned that it was God is very significant. Other prophets have questioned "why did you choose lowly, insignifcant me God?" but to question the ultimate divine presence...hhhmm

freza - thanks for your comments.

Do you have the criteria for us to judge a true prophet by?

I'll start you off with two.

One I would say, is to declare they are a prophet of God. Another is to make prophecies in the name of God and have them come true.

Both these are fulfilled by Muhammad, pbuh.

My understanding of the Bible is that a false prophet cannot make a prophecy in the name of God and have it come true. Do you agree?

Cheers,
Shafique

freza wrote:Yes he was shy and modest, but was it because that's what he wanted or because that was his condition in that particular phase of his life?

This 'phase' of his life was age 40, married to a rich lady for 15 years and given away much of the wealth and set all the slaves free.

freza wrote:I disagree about your statements of his lack of aspirations. I think that sometimes his aspirations were very significant motivations, his first such aspiration might very well have been his marriage to Khadija - a rich widow.

Actions speak louder than conjecture.

freza wrote:If none other but God makes contact with a human prophet-to-be, would he leave any doubt that he was God?

Well, it wasn't God who made contact with the Prophet, pbuh - so I'm not sure what your statement is based on.

freza wrote:That Mohammad questioned that it was God is very significant. Other prophets have questioned "why did you choose lowly, insignifcant me God?" but to question the ultimate divine presence...hhhmm

So your criticism is that he had doubts. Ok - fair enough (but he would be right to doubt that it wasn't God, because it wasn't God )

Cheers,
Shafique

Right, it was God who told the angel Gabriel to contact Mohammad.
this makes his doubts perfectly OK! silly me!

I thought Mohammad was 25 years old when he married the rich widow. Can you clarify this.

can you also reference to writings - outside of the Quran - that state that he had absolutely no political and social aspirations.

shafique wrote:
As for the 'womaniser' comment - I take it that anyone who has more than one wife cannot be a prophet in your eyes. Fair enough - but that would rule out Abraham as a prophet for one (and not to mention Solomon and David). Do you really believe these weren't prophets?

the only prophets in the true sense that i believe in are jesus & moses, everyone else is just another human being. some more spiritual than others. but not prophets.

freza wrote:
I thought Mohammad was 25 years old when he married the rich widow. Can you clarify this.

Yes, he was 25 when he married his first wife. (40-25 = 15)

freza wrote:can you also reference to writings - outside of the Quran - that state that he had absolutely no political and social aspirations.

All accounts of Muhammad's, pbuh, early life are outside of the Quran, so not sure what you are asking for. There are many biographies out there.

Interesting that you don't consider Abraham etc prophets. You are the first Christian I have debated with that does not consider the Biblical prophets to be prophets. (BTW - Moses married twice as well according to Biblical scholars, the second wife being an black Eithiopian, but that's a different discussion).

Anyway, do you agree that only true prophets make prophecies in the name of God and have them come true?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Yes, he was 25 when he married his first wife. (40-25 = 15)

My mistake: I misread your statement about the phase of his life I thought you meant that Mohammad was 40 years old when he married the rich widow.

However, this is an interesting observation because it seems that after Khadeejah died, his personal life was very...fast paced..so to speak. He married a bunch of women and had concubines some of them extremely young. How many wives did Mohammad have after Khadeejah's death?

What is the opinion of Islamic scholars about slavery, concubines and war captives?

This is another thing that strikes me when you compare other prophets with Mohammad. Other prophets fell out of favor with God over sins, sometimes forgiven sometimes not. The prophet Mohammad who has a place of such high esteem in Islam - shouldn't he have led a less reproachable life? If the Quran itself states his weaknesses, we can only imagine what was not said.

This glaring contradiction begs the question - why ask something of his devotees that he didn't comply with himself? How can you even begin to justify this..?

But, for the record, Muhammad, pbuh, is recorded as performing miracles. One is where a bowl of milk was shared via a large number of people.

Is this a multiply of the quantity of the milk miracle? You mean like the Jesus miracles of the wine at Cana and the multiplying of bread and fish? I wonder how many Muslims know of this Mohammad miracle as opposed to those that know of Moses parting of the sea miracle? Miracles are not small things - word of them spreads. This miracle tidbit seems very very odd.

I note that you are still refusing to give us the criteria by which to judge Muhammad, pbuh, and show where in the Bible the criteria come from.

I'll however put this down to selective reading, and indulge your question.

freza wrote:
However, this is an interesting observation because it seems that after Khadeejah died, his personal life was very...fast paced..so to speak.

Not really. He married divorced and widowed women, and was married Aisha when she was a young girl, but the marriage was not consummated until her maturity.

freza wrote:What is the opinion of Islamic scholars about slavery, concubines and war captives?

God's opinion is clearly stated in the Quran - what are you confused about?

freza wrote:This is another thing that strikes me when you compare other prophets with Mohammad. Other prophets fell out of favor with God over sins, sometimes forgiven sometimes not.

I believe all prophets are sinless - but that is another matter. Sinless in that they don't knowingly break God's law.

freza wrote: The prophet Mohammad who has a place of such high esteem in Islam - shouldn't he have led a less reproachable life? If the Quran itself states his weaknesses, we can only imagine what was not said.

We do hold Muhammad, pbuh, to a high level and yes he must lead a less reproachable life than other prophets.

I'm not sure what weakness you are referring to - if you could give me the reference that would be good.

freza wrote:This glaring contradiction begs the question - why ask something of his devotees that he didn't comply with himself? How can you even begin to justify this..?

You will have to point out the 'glaring contradiction' before I can justify it. Can't see the contradiction yet.

freza wrote:

But, for the record, Muhammad, pbuh, is recorded as performing miracles. One is where a bowl of milk was shared via a large number of people.

Is this a multiply of the quantity of the milk miracle? You mean like the Jesus miracles of the wine at Cana and the multiplying of bread and fish? I wonder how many Muslims know of this Mohammad miracle as opposed to those that know of Moses parting of the sea miracle? Miracles are not small things - word of them spreads. This miracle tidbit seems very very odd.

Ok - so let us see, how many Romans converted because Jesus walked on water or fed the multitudes? Why did the High Priests not convert? Is that fact not 'very very odd' if 'miracles are not small things' and 'word of them spreads'?

As I stated before, I don't consider miracles to be a criterion - but if you do, please state how you consider Muhammad, pbuh, to have not fulfilled them (is it because splitting the moon is less than walking on water, or that he did not feed many people with the milk?).

So, let us see - so far we have established:
1. Muhammad, pbuh, declared himself a prophet of God
2. Muhammad, pbuh, made prophecies in the name of God
3. Said prophecies came true.
4. Muhammad, pbuh, performed miracles

1, 2 and 3 are my criteria which I took from the Bible - but you still haven't stated which criteria you are using. Quoting from the 'I Spy' book of Islam bashing is not quite what I was expecting. Disapointed, but not surprised.

Cheers,
Shafique

double post

Edit, let me just remind everyone why this thread was set up

freza wrote:For example: Muslims say that Mohammad was an (the) exemplary prophet. I say, he didn't even meet the basic criteria for what makes a true prophet when prophets before him met challenges and requirements of attestation but he didn't. I get the feeling you will reply with: "he didn't have to, he was special - the Quran says so."

freza - can we have the 'basic criteria' and where these criteria come from.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:So, let us see - so far we have established:
1. Muhammad, pbuh, declared himself a prophet of God
2. Muhammad, pbuh, made prophecies in the name of God
3. Said prophecies came true.
4. Muhammad, pbuh, performed miracles

so far you have established the above, we havent established squat.

he declared himself a prophet, with no specific grounding really....
he made ludacris hadiths in the process (not sure what prophecies you're talking about)

and no documented case of widely accepted miracles are known about him, other than your niche example, that was hardly ever announced by anyone before... as for that, a small ern of wine fits an entire congregation at communion... so what you're saying isnt exactly far fetched, enough to call a MIRACLE


miracles:

raising dead
instantly healing sick
opening eyes with a touch
beating death and rising from it.
splitting the red sea



big difference.

shafique wrote:I note that you are still refusing to give us the criteria by which to judge Muhammad, pbuh, and show where in the Bible the criteria come from. I'll however put this down to selective reading, and indulge your question.

I'm following your example, I was hoping you would feel flattered.

actually you decided this theme: compare/contrast.

about the criteria, I'll get to that. First let me get the basics out of the way:

shafique wrote:Not really. He married divorced and widowed women, and was married Aisha when she was a young girl, but the marriage was not consummated until her maturity.

Obvious question which you did not address. WHY? Why marry so many? How many? Why marry a child even if the marriage was not consummated? How do you know it wasn't? How old was Aisha when the marriage was consummated?

shafique wrote:God's opinion is clearly stated in the Quran - what are you confused about?

OK, I'm confused I admit. Concubines and se x slaves are acceptable or not?

shafique wrote:I believe all prophets are sinless - but that is another matter. Sinless in that they don't knowingly break God's law.

whaaaat??? so if Mohammad didn't "know" that women are not commodities - he didn't sin?

freza wrote:
about the criteria, I'll get to that. First let me get the basics out of the way:

shafique wrote:Not really. He married divorced and widowed women, and was married Aisha when she was a young girl, but the marriage was not consummated until her maturity.

Obvious question which you did not address. WHY? Why marry so many? How many? Why marry a child even if the marriage was not consummated? How do you know it wasn't? How old was Aisha when the marriage was consummated?

Why did he marry other women after his first wife died and chose to marry divorcees and widows? Can you prove that the marriage to Aisha was not consummated after her maturity? We have all her hadith and they paint a picture of a happy, loving marriage that puts mine to shame (the prophet, pbuh did all the housework!).

Why not marry? Is it un-prophetlike to marry?

freza wrote:

shafique wrote:God's opinion is clearly stated in the Quran - what are you confused about?

OK, I'm confused I admit. Concubines and se x slaves are acceptable or not?

The Quran is quite clear on this - s. e. x outside of marriage is a sin.

freza wrote:

shafique wrote:I believe all prophets are sinless - but that is another matter. Sinless in that they don't knowingly break God's law.

whaaaat??? so if Mohammad didn't "know" that women are not commodities - he didn't sin?

Huh? Like I said, you should not rely on the 'I spy' book for facts!

Cheers,
Shafique

freza wrote:

shafique wrote:God's opinion is clearly stated in the Quran - what are you confused about?

OK, I'm confused I admit. Concubines and se x slaves are acceptable or not?

yes they are,
the quran clearly says "and whatever their right hand posesses"

in arabic, "wa malakat aymanohom."


one of the most debated verses, within the muslim community, mainly from women against clerics...

shafique wrote:

freza wrote:

shafique wrote:God's opinion is clearly stated in the Quran - what are you confused about?

OK, I'm confused I admit. Concubines and se x slaves are acceptable or not?

The Quran is quite clear on this - s. e. x outside of marriage is a sin.

shafique, explain "whatever their right hand posses" or "wa ma malakat aymanohom"

personally, IF you believe that the quran is the literal word of god, do you believe that god would say such a thing?


logic says no ....

shafique says yes ....


i chose logic.

ebonics wrote:
shafique, explain "whatever their right hand posses" or "wa ma malakat aymanohom"

It means what it says - those whom you have control over - it can refer to slaves or prisoners of war.

The Quran says it is legal for Muslim men to marry these women - but they cannot be forced into marriage:

24:33
Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them).

4:24
Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

etc.

The Quran acknowledges the presence of slaves and ordains how they should be set free and their treatment. In times of war, prisoners of war also become captives and their treatment is governed by the same rules.

Where it is impractical to keep POW in camps, the usual treatment in history is that they are all put to death. Tellingly though, there are no commandments in the Quran specifying when it is acceptable to take slaves.

There is no equivalent teaching in the Bible, to my knowledge, and many slave owners used the Bible to justify slavery (wrongly, in my opinion).

But, again, I can't see this as a criterion of prophethood - sure we can discuss Islam's teachings vis-a-vis slaves (and I'm happy to do so).

Cheers,
Shafique

ebonics wrote:personally, IF you believe that the quran is the literal word of god, do you believe that god would say such a thing?

I do believe - and others are free to believe in what they wish.

ebonics wrote:logic says no ....

shafique says yes ....


i chose logic.

How is your 'disecting' of the Quran coming along?

Cheers,
Shafique

my disecting of the quran is yielding that aisha, admitted on several occasions, that the quran's been re-worded...


it took me hard streneous research to find out such information, bounded by the censorship of etisalat..

when i air it out here, you'll do what you did with the hadith that sparked my "disecting" of your quran, dismiss it as unauthentic...... like groundhog day you're becoming more and more predictable shafique.

ebonics wrote:my disecting of the quran is yielding that aisha, admitted on several occasions, that the quran's been re-worded...


it took me hard streneous research to find out such information, bounded by the censorship of etisalat..

when i air it out here, you'll do what you did with the hadith that sparked my "disecting" of your quran, dismiss it as unauthentic...... like groundhog day you're becoming more and more predictable shafique.

Wow - I'm now being criticised for a discussion that hasn't taken place yet!

I'll wait for you to post before I address it.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:

ebonics wrote:my disecting of the quran is yielding that aisha, admitted on several occasions, that the quran's been re-worded...


it took me hard streneous research to find out such information, bounded by the censorship of etisalat..

when i air it out here, you'll do what you did with the hadith that sparked my "disecting" of your quran, dismiss it as unauthentic...... like groundhog day you're becoming more and more predictable shafique.

Wow - I'm now being criticised for a discussion that hasn't taken place yet!

I'll wait for you to post before I address it.

Cheers,
Shafique

i can only judge you on your past merits


equation went like this:


hadith was mentioned by me and questions
azhar confirmed hadith is correct
several others confirmed hadith is correct
international muslim clerics in international press confirmed hadith is correct


shafique dismissed it as rubbish made by none muslims to make islam look bad..... with no credible research i may add.


past record speaks for itself.

shafique wrote:Why did he marry other women after his first wife died and chose to marry divorcees and widows? Can you prove that the marriage to Aisha was not consummated after her maturity? We have all her hadith and they paint a picture of a happy, loving marriage that puts mine to shame (the prophet, pbuh did all the housework!).Why not marry? Is it un-prophetlike to marry?

Don't be silly Shafique, I am obviously not asking why did he get married, I am asking why with so many women? For charity? Was this the only way to show charity towards a widow? At least one of his wives widowed because her husband was killed by Mohammad's army. So she was a war captive turned wife.

Was Aisha really that happy in the marriage? Aren't there accounts that state that there was some serious discord between the wives due to an increasing household? That Aisha was unhappy and resentful at times and even plotted against Mohammad? Btw, do you think that a nine year old girl has reached maturity? She was nine when Mohammad was in his 50s and the marriage was consummated, right?