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I don't think Jesus was contradictory - I rather believe that Jesus' message was that violence was sometimes necessary (in essence, what Islam teaches and what Christians actually practice).

are we talking about jesus christ here, or jesus the mexican i met in california on the corner of a pizza store?

And which news coverage of the Gazan blockade have you been watching (it couldn't have been the Israeli, for even they said the Gazans went into Egypt and spent money buying up food etc - hardly an invasion!)

the egyptian - after they went in peacefully to buy up food, they then broke the borders, attacked border security, and infeltrated to sinai.... then the army had to go in and kick their a$$es back to where they came from, arresting hundereds and confiscating explosives and weaponry.... a clear indication that the egyptian government wants nothing to do with palastinians and their problems (egypt has a very good political relationship with isreal post the war that they cannot put in jeapordy)


no one in the arab world is really lifting a finger to help people in ghaza with whats happening, because A- they brought it on themselves through hamas' pathetic attacks on isreal (as admitted by the foreign minister of palestine on this morning's news) and B- because America said so.

My fingers are itching to comment on Gaza, but that would be completely OT and there is already a Gaza thread.

Can't really comment on Gaza - as all the information I have is from the news (primarily the BBC and Al Jazeera international) - but am interested in what you are saying ebonics. Why don't you comment in the Gaza thread (apologies if you have already).

Interesting though that someone recently suggested a peaceful protest - which they did do recently.

Cheers,
Shafique

shaf y you wasting your time with these guys?

let them think what they want to think. i know whats the truth and you know the truth.

lol ebonics and strawberries one question are you in dubai? and why are so interested in dubai? hey do remember dubai is a muslim country, its a country with over 1 million muslims. yet you crictise islam and you probably live here or want to live her. Y?

to build these muslims you talk of homes to live, and to improve their infrastructure... because none of them are qualified to do it themselves.


we dont really need them, they need us - so ask them why do they bring in free creative thinkers to this country...

ebonics wrote:to build these muslims you talk of homes to live, and to improve their infrastructure... because none of them are qualified to do it themselves.


we dont really need them, they need us - so ask them why do they bring in free creative thinkers to this country...

hahahahh lol nice one mate well i dont know who "forced" you to come here but you are free to do what you like and free to think what you like to think. but trust me there are many of us who are qualified just like you. just like u we have gone to your countries and have become technicians, electricians, engineers, doctors and dentist. so we are qualified as you but not as hypocrit as you. if you really dont like Islam or the culture why do you live here? isnt the world big enough? whats wrong they are not offering jobs back in england or new york? yet out of all the places you had to come to UAE and question islam lol.
if you really dont like islam then why the hell are you living in an Islamic Country where the majority of the ppl are muslims. lol oh you like the Islamic food is it?

rudeboy wrote:

ebonics wrote:to build these muslims you talk of homes to live, and to improve their infrastructure... because none of them are qualified to do it themselves.


we dont really need them, they need us - so ask them why do they bring in free creative thinkers to this country...

hahahahh lol nice one mate well i dont know who "forced" you to come here but you are free to do what you like and free to think what you like to think. but trust me there are many of us who are qualified just like you. just like u we have gone to your countries and have become technicians, electricians, engineers, doctors and dentist. so we are qualified as you but not as hypocrit as you. if you really dont like Islam or the culture why do you live here? isnt the world big enough? whats wrong they are not offering jobs back in england or new york? yet out of all the places you had to come to UAE and question islam lol.
if you really dont like islam then why the hell are you living in an Islamic Country where the majority of the ppl are muslims. lol oh you like the Islamic food is it?

no one forced me, im taking full advantage... and with all due respect, look around you - all the flashy buildings getting built, are all by international architecture firms... all the buildings that were there previously, were made by arab architects, and guess what? they're all getting torn down.

go to abu dhabi, each site is a demolishion ground tearing down the hideous "shoe boxes" that these "designers" "designed"

so in answer to you - anyone can build a house, every house can be a house, but good design makes a house a home.


rudeboy please refrain from discussing matters you know nothing about.

ebonics wrote:

rudeboy wrote:

ebonics wrote:to build these muslims you talk of homes to live, and to improve their infrastructure... because none of them are qualified to do it themselves.


we dont really need them, they need us - so ask them why do they bring in free creative thinkers to this country...

hahahahh lol nice one mate well i dont know who "forced" you to come here but you are free to do what you like and free to think what you like to think. but trust me there are many of us who are qualified just like you. just like u we have gone to your countries and have become technicians, electricians, engineers, doctors and dentist. so we are qualified as you but not as hypocrit as you. if you really dont like Islam or the culture why do you live here? isnt the world big enough? whats wrong they are not offering jobs back in england or new york? yet out of all the places you had to come to UAE and question islam lol.
if you really dont like islam then why the hell are you living in an Islamic Country where the majority of the ppl are muslims. lol oh you like the Islamic food is it?

no one forced me, im taking full advantage... and with all due respect, look around you - all the flashy buildings getting built, are all by international architecture firms... all the buildings that were there previously, were made by arab architects, and guess what? they're all getting torn down.

go to abu dhabi, each site is a demolishion ground tearing down the hideous "shoe boxes" that these "designers" "designed"

so in answer to you - anyone can build a house, every house can be a house, but good design makes a house a home.


rudeboy please refrain from discussing matters you know nothing about.

lol so you are taking the FULL advantage. as in you just here for the money right??

as for the buildings being pulled down well i have heard of a rummor about roads made by british contracters being demolished and made again. Y? because the british contracters just like you wanted to take the full advantage and make quick money. hmmmm.

yeh am sure you are probably good at your job but ask most of the doctors back in your home where they from and whether they are qualified or not. lol

but y here? y dont u go to china and join chinaforums.com and mock the Budasim? if you really dont like Islam or the Islamic way of living why you wanna live here when you can go else where. hey the world is big enough and not only in UAE they are making flashing buildings.

rudeboy wrote:lol so you are taking the FULL advantage. as in you just here for the money right??

if it dont make money, it dont make sense.

im ignoring everything you said about the building industry, china, and all the dribble in the middle - because it dont make no money, or sense.

ebonics wrote:

rudeboy wrote:lol so you are taking the FULL advantage. as in you just here for the money right??

if it dont make money, it dont make sense.

im ignoring everything you said about the building industry, china, and all the dribble in the middle - because it dont make no money, or sense.

hey ebonics its ok cos we all here to make money arent we. so lets just suck all the money out of UAE, as much as we can and move on. and while we here lets mock islam.

hey ebonics since you are a FREE thinker and you happen to be QUALIFIED y dont you tell me what we should do with the muslims and their problems?

should we gas them?

should we torture them?

what do you suggest.

educate them maybe? with no recurring religious influence in all teachings?

i have no problems against normal muslims that have moved with the times, i have a problem with the ones that are still stuck in 1500... out of them terrorist pockets form - and the main difference between the first and the latter, is good education.

ebonics wrote:educate them maybe? with no recurring religious influence in all teachings?

i have no problems against normal muslims that have moved with the times, i have a problem with the ones that are still stuck in 1500... out of them terrorist pockets form - and the main difference between the first and the latter, is good education.

ebonics i agree with you. education is the only way for a person to decide whats wrong and right. but education is not available to all the ppl in muslim countries. first not all are rich and can afford it 2ndly in most of the countries it aint free. y it aint free? i dont know you should ask the govs USA has installed in nearly all the muslim countries.

Shafique, I see that you're still interpreting things your way, cuz in your mind your viewpoints are the only ones that should count which means, logic is out of the question.

I don't understand how you can not get it: you should not take every single sentence in the Bible literally, it's not meant to be interpreted without examination, it's not meant to be quoted without profound knowledge of it and its history, the author and audience that it was written for (amongst other criteria). I mean, you just don't get this very simple notion, or more like, you refuse to get this simple notion. ok.

you're a lost cause in this regard.

Anyway, Christianity was violent yes it was. Islam was violent, blah blah. The Quran's author(s) (and no, not talking about God here) was inspired in part (as in: copy cat) by the Bible anyway, so what's the big fuss?

freza, I think you are missing the whole point of this thread. (Oh and welcome back.)

ebonics stated that he did not think the Bible contained violent verses and challenged me 3 times to quote from the scripture. Hence this thread and hence the title.

Note that I've always said that Christian theology is peaceful - i.e. Christians don't follow these violent teachings. Note that even Jesus' teachings in the NT advocate disciples carrying swords (Luke 23) and an instance of one (Simon Peter) chopping off a guy's ear with the sword he carried - but despite this Christian teachings are peaceful.

You are also completely right that Christians have been violent in the past and present (remember that Serbs and Croats are Christians - and Bush is a born again Christian who God talks to ! )

We also have a different thread discussing whether the Quran contains contradictions or not - so far I have answered all the issues raised and I continue to maintain that there are no contradictions in the Quran. Therefore Muslims follow all the verses of the Quran and don't have to reject any of them - which contrasts with the issues raised in this thread.

Biblical contradictions are well known and there isn't much point in discussing these in this thread - given that I've shown one from Acts in the 'integrity' thread.

At the end of the day, I also choose which verses of the Bible to take literally and which to take as allegorical. I take the prophecies of Jesus of the Comforter and Spirit of Truth as ones fulfilled by Muhammad's prophethood - whilst Christians will argue that they are fulfilled by the 'Holy Spirit'.

Jews refuse to accept Jesus as their Messiah and reject him for not fulifilling prophecies literally (he didn't fight the Romans, Elijah didn't descend from heaven). Muslims view Christians as people who did not accept the fulfilment of Jesus' prophecies of Islam - so just as you would view Jews as following an out-dated code/religion, we view Christians in exactly the same way.

And, as you say - what's the fuss?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:freza, I think you are missing the whole point of this thread. (Oh and welcome back.)

oh, I got what this thread was about.

shafique wrote:ebonics stated that he did not think the Bible contained violent verses and challenged me 3 times to quote from the scripture. Hence this thread and hence the title.

ANYONE can point out the OBVIOUS. Not anyone can read between the lines and not anyone can choose to be informed the right way. Pointing out instances of violence in a metaphorical context is useless. Pointing out examples of advocation of violence in a non-metaphorical context, but rather in an accurate interpretation of the sentences quoted, now that would have been a challenge for you...

shafique wrote:Biblical contradictions are well known and there isn't much point in discussing these in this thread - given that I've shown one from Acts in the 'integrity' thread.

hehe. well I guess that shows us! You can pat yourself on the back now. you've opened our eyes big time!

shafique wrote:At the end of the day, I also choose which verses of the Bible to take literally and which to take as allegorical.

this says A LOT about you. Wow, well at least you finally admit your biases.

Sticks and stones..

You choose which verses of the Bible to interpret literally, and so do I. So what is the fuss?

It appears though that I am more liberal in my views, in that I acknowledge your right to choose different verses from me, but you call me names for my choices.

My 'bias' is to give Jesus' words in the Bible more credibility that St Pauls. I've always been open about this. Is it not the case that you just have a different bias?

It's not as if you are saying we should follow all the verses of the Bible!

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Sticks and stones..

huh? you mean being called "biased" is offensive? hhmma bit sensitive, aren't you?

You choose which verses of the Bible to interpret literally, and so do I. So what is the fuss?

nope, it doesn't work that way. "I" personally do not choose what to interpret literally and what not to. while some passages are pretty straight forward, study of the bible by true experts gives us insight into passages that we can not otherwise decipher correctly. and seeking the truth involves seeing things as they truly were meant to be seen and being able to comprehend the message of the bible as accurately as possible. other religions choose not to decipher, interpret, etc. their holy book for whatever reason, so be it, but no, it's not OK to apply one's own religious criteria onto another, different religion's criteria...

freza, every muslim interprates what they want and disregard what they want out of their creed, its every muslims life story.


case in point, the hadeeth that shafique dismissed as fake with no credible research or knowledge of the topic to make an educated decision.

freza - you choose which 'true' experts to believe in - for instance calling some 'Christians' cults (eg Jehova's Witnesses).

That said, I take it from your post that you now agree that the translation I quoted is accurate as both verses use the same Greek word for 'hear'?

Are you saying that a person who believes in Jesus' words cannot read the Bible and interpret it for themselves, but should only follow what you say is the truth? Hmm.

ebonics - I don't see why you are comparing the hadith with the Bible, the Bible should be compared with the Quran.

However, if you are arguing that the Bible contains mistakes just like the hadith do, then I am totally in agreement with you.

Cheers,
Shafique

freza - here is another contradiction/error from the Bible. This one I haven't heard a convincing argument for yet:

Did Jesus appear to twelve disciples after his resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:5), or was it to eleven (Matthew 27:3-5; 28:16; Mark 16:14; Luke 24:9,33; Acts 1:9-26)?

The latter verses are explicit that only 11 disciples remained after ressurection (Judas having died), so is it not the case the first verse is wrong - and therefore not the word of God?

Cheers,
Shafique

Shafique,

What does what I personally (well, along with quite many others) think about the JW have to do with the true interpretation of the Bible? Well besides the fact that the JW do not interpret it correctly?

Random House Dictionary defines cult as the following:
"6. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader." Do some study into JW and see how unorthodox their belief "system" really is, historically, theologically, rationally. As I've said before, they might be great people, but their belief system is whack (IMHO). But I know you won't look into it, cuz you're not into having your eyes opened, you're into believing that you're opening other's eyes, yeah, aha.

I frankly still don't understand your obsession with the Bible and Christianity and pointing out supposed contradictions, mistakes etc.
Why not do so with your own religion? What are you trying to prove by your narrow-minded views on another religion that you clearly don't fully understand? Do you feel threatened by it? Resentful of it? Do you want to "save" a bunch of way-ward Christians in order to earn Heaven brownie points? Aaaahhh, that must be it!

freza wrote:What does what I personally (well, along with quite many others) think about the JW have to do with the true interpretation of the Bible? Well besides the fact that the JW do not interpret it correctly?

They say they follow the Bible and they have a different interpretation of it from you (i.e. do not interpret it correctly).

So why is your interpretation more valid than theirs?

I understand you think they are a cult - but I guess you think all who have different religious views from you are 'wrong' and following either a cult or the devil.

freza wrote:I frankly still don't understand your obsession with the Bible and Christianity and pointing out supposed contradictions, mistakes etc.
Why not do so with your own religion? What are you trying to prove by your narrow-minded views on another religion that you clearly don't fully understand? Do you feel threatened by it? Resentful of it? Do you want to "save" a bunch of way-ward Christians in order to earn Heaven brownie points? Aaaahhh, that must be it!

So, instead of addressing the contradictions you question my motives. Hmm.

I do criticise Muslims and bad interpretations of Muslim laws - I don't get your point.

I have no issue with people choosing to follow other religions - but I do feel that I should point out facts when they aren't presented.

I certainly do defend the Quran and Islam against unjust allegations and yes I do point out the claims of Islam being the fulfillment of the final religion to be found in the Bible and other religious books.

As for saving Christians - well yes, a number of Christians have become muslim in part due to my conversations with them, but that is not the point here. My cause is truth, not the imposition of faith.


Cheers,
Shafique

Shafique,

I have talked about JW's "beliefs" before and I have pointed out very serious issues. It's not my fault that you seem to suffer from Alzheimer's and can't remember it.

What's the difference...aaahh, well about 2,000 years of history compared to less than 200 years. Not much, right? Have you read the history of the Jehova's Witness? Have you noticed how they have changed some parts of the Bible - several times. Have also predicted the end of the world, more than once(!) Have not been sure what to really call Jesus. Small things like that. Go and read up on them and see for yourself. simple right? To be well informed but to differ on small issues is one thing, but c'mon, let's use common sense here! I think that sects like the JW actually are detrimental to Christianity as a whole because they tamper with many things, most importantly: reason.

If you noticed, most of what I quote comes from different Christian theologians of different Christian groups (Protestant groups and Catholic), but their examination of the Bible is very very similar. Real knowledge eventually brings forth the truth.

I do address your obsessions, I mean, contradictions.
You don't address the contradictions in the Quran, you just state, well they're not contradictions. Alrightythen. That explains it!
I think it's cool that you defend Islam against unjust allegations.

As for saving Christians - well yes, a number of Christians have become muslim in part due to my conversations with them, but that is not the point here.

so you've "saved them"??? this made me laugh so hard I almost fell off my chair.

shafique wrote:
The latter verses are explicit that only 11 disciples remained after ressurection (Judas having died), so is it not the case the first verse is wrong - and therefore not the word of God?

Cheers,
Shafique

by the way, no one said god wrote the bible.

neither did he write the quran with his own hand.
his prophet that cant read or write, heard, supposedly learnt it all, and retold it to ones who know how to write to write it for him.
so basically he recited the whole thing accurately, everytime he got a sura, and remembered it all 100%............................. that just says it all.


lest we forget the "aya" that landed on Omar, not muhammad... to save muhammad from the women attacking his house due to his antics against them.

double post

ebonics - I agree that the reason there are mistakes and contradictions in the Bible is because it is not the literal word of God.

freza - I'll wait for you to address the issue of contradictions, and I am glad you are enjoying the conversation.

I don't get your argument that we should reject JW because they have brought new understandings of the Bible's teachings. Perhaps you are Catholic and reject all 'innovations', such as the reformation. Do you believe Protestants are also a 'cult' - or was it ok for Luther etc to interpret the Bible differently from Catholics?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:ebonics - I agree that the reason there are mistakes and contradictions in the Bible is because it is not the literal word of God.

neither is the quran.

ebonics wrote:

shafique wrote:ebonics - I agree that the reason there are mistakes and contradictions in the Bible is because it is not the literal word of God.

neither is the quran.

Agree - all mistakes and contradictions in the Quran would be a sign of it not being the literal word of God. I just maintain there are no mistakes and contradictions - but that is a different thread.

Anyway - I'm glad we agree on the Bible contains mistakes, I'll let you explain to freza.

Cheers,
Shafique