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valkyrie wrote:Hi, shafique. I have sent another e-mail to an earth science professor who specializes on earthquakes. He will probably respond in the coming days (monday).

Excellent - as I said, I am not well read when it comes to geology.

valkyrie wrote:The reason I asked you if v27:88 was dealing with the end times was because the context of the verse appears to be clearly speaking about judgment day. The immediate verses before and after this verse are prophecies of the end of the world:

And the Day that the Trumpet will be sounded - then will be smitten with terror those who are in the heavens, and those who are on earth, except such as Allah will please (to exempt): and all shall come to His (Presence) as beings conscious of their lowliness. Thou seest the mountains and thinkest them firmly fixed: but they shall pass away as the clouds pass away: (such is) the artistry of Allah, who disposes of all things in perfect order: for he is well acquainted with all that ye do. If any do good, good will (accrue) to them therefrom; and they will be secure from terror that Day.


It reads to me that mountains are currently fixed (as what several Koranic verses say), but at the end of days, Allah will move the mountains as clouds like the other different verses in the Koran that talk about mountains moving, vanishing, collapsing, scattering and being crushed.

Yes, I can see the context and agree that they can be viewed about talking about the latter days when you look at the context (and I can imagine that is how scholars as old interpreted them).

The other verses which clearly talk about the disintegration of mountains say that this will happen in the latter days.

However, v88 in Arabic does not say that the mountains will 'disapear' like clouds, but what has been translated as 'pass away like clouds pass away' is what was translated as 'moving' or 'floating' like clouds 'move'/'float'.

The clincher for me is that this verse is in the present tense - it instructs the reader to look at mountains (now) and says that even though they are fixed, they are (present tense) floating like clouds. However, the translation you have quoted gives the impression that the 'passing like clouds' is in the future tense.

Thus we need to establish whether the Arabic words referring to clouds are in the present or future tense. I'll consult with some Arabic speaking guys and get back to you.

I think its worth repeating my stance on the Quran and science (as this thread was initially set up to discuss alleged contradictions, not descriptions of nature). I do believe that the Quran's descriptions are in accordance with the laws of the universe/physics/nature etc. This is because if God is the author the Quran, he won't reveal something that is wrong.

However, it was written in the 6th century and explains concepts in terms that have meaning for man at every stage of scientific development since. The main message of the Quran is not as a scientific textbook explaining the universe. It does however ask readers to study nature (i.e. science) and discover the beauties and complexities of creation.

Therefore I view the examination and fitting of science to Quranic verses as a peripheral activity - and not a core measure of the truthfulness or otherwise of the message of Islam.

I personally haven't found a verse or claim of the Quran that asks me to put aside logic, but I like challenges and hence I continue to look and question.

So, let us keep these discussions in perspective - the main message of the Quran is that it is a pure revelation containing the pinnacle of religious evolutions - the final code by which man can attain the ultimate peace - being at one with Creation (nafse muttmainah - the soul at rest, where God is pleased with it and it is pleased with God).

Cheers,
Shafique

valkyrie wrote:The reason I asked you if v27:88 was dealing with the end times was because the context of the verse appears to be clearly speaking about judgment day. The immediate verses before and after this verse are prophecies of the end of the world:

I just confirmed with an Arabic speaker that v88 is in the present tense (actually he says is present continuous - so 'it is and has always been' is the meaning).

Whilst v87 is about the Day of Judgement, v86 is about the present time :

(I quote Pickthall's translation, just for a change):
027.086 Have they not seen how We have appointed the night that they may rest therein, and the day sight-giving ? Lo! therein verily are portents for a people who believe.
027.087 And (remind them of) the Day when the Trumpet will be blown, and all who are in the heavens and the earth will start in fear, save him whom Allah willeth. And all come unto Him, humbled.
027.088 And thou seest the hills thou deemest solid flying with the flight of clouds: the doing of Allah Who perfecteth all things. Lo! He is Informed of what ye do.
027.089 Whoso bringeth a good deed will have better than its worth; and such are safe from fear that Day.

Note that he translates 88 more literally (though using 'hills' instead of 'mountain'.

But the point I was making is that 86 is about looking at signs today - 'night and day', v87 does talk about the future, but v88 is back to the present continuous tense.

As I read yesterday, v88 did cause some problems for scholars of old (who could not comprehend how mountains are floating/flying like clouds).

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:The quotes do corroborate the Quranic verses about mountains being like pegs and also reducing earthquakes.

Mountains like pegs is clear analogy for mountains with their roots. It is interesting acutally, and I doubt it that it was possible to know 1600 years ago that mountains go deep down like pegs.

With second one 'reducing earthquakes' I see an issue of semantics.

sorry to bring this one back up again,

further proof that breastfeeding hadith is no fable.

Question:
A neighbor of ours found a few hours old baby. She fears for him from the mistreatment of the orphanages. She wants to bring him up, but when he grows up it will be haram if he stays with her alone in the house. She says that if she brings him up like she does with her own children, she will not able to leave him. She has married daughters and they have babies. Shall she ask her daughters to breastfeed this baby so that she becomes his grandmother through breast feeding? And so it will not be haram if he stays with her at home. Or this will be considered a disliked trick?
My mother has breastfed a daughter of our neighbor with my older brother several times. So she became a sister of my brother (of breastfeeding). Has she and her sisters become sisters for me as well or sisters for my brother who was breastfed with her only? This question is to specify the limits of my dealings with them, are they considered my sisters, or strange women to me?.

Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.

If one of your neighbour’s daughters breastfeeds this child for five feedings, he will become her son through breastfeeding (radaa’ah) and your neighbour will become his grandmother through breastfeeding, and all her daughters – the neighbour’s daughters – will become his maternal aunts through breastfeeding. Thus she will become able to raise him throughout his childhood and beyond with no problems, because he will be a mahram to her.

This is not regarded as a trick, rather it is a legitimate shar’i solution which will enable this woman to raise this child and take care of him, and there is the hope that she will be rewarded for that by Allaah. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to the wife of Abu Hudhayfah concerning Saalim, the freed slave of Abu Hudhayfah: “Breastfeed him, then you will become his mahram.” Narrated by Muslim (1453).

And Allaah knows best.

as seen in this link
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=9 ... %20feeding

my very limited brain, still cannot fathom how the prophet told his wife to breastfeed an adult so to make him and her related....

ebonics - what part of the thread title is confusing you?

Discussing hadith is not appropriate in this thread. I suggest you start a new thread and find someone who believes in this hadith to debate with you.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:and find someone who believes in this hadith to debate with you.

i admire your un-founded selectiveness to this day on this matter.

ebonics wrote:

shafique wrote:and find someone who believes in this hadith to debate with you.

i admire your un-founded selectiveness to this day on this matter.

Thank you.

I am very selective when it comes to Hadith - as recommended by the compilers themselves. [Oh, and you have selected quite a mild hadith - there are many more sensational hadith in Bukhari, Muslim etc - but as I said, the compilation and authenticity of books of hadith is a totally different topic from this thread.]

How is the 'disection' of the Quran coming along?

Cheers,
Shafique

you may say chapter 1 is complete...