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lol am luving this

shafique wrote:

ebonics wrote:

(And yes, I agree with you that hadith which contradict the Quran and Sunnah are summarily rejected by myself)

based on no adaquate research, just personal opinion to dismiss any claims that you yourself said "for once im speechless" to. again highlighting the selectiveness when it comes to muslims and hadith - its all personal opinion, take what you want, ignore what you want. nice work shafique.

At the end of the day all religion is personal opinion - or are you advocating brain washing?

Why is it not logical to reject questionable 'sayings' when they go against the literal word of God? Why do you insist on going to the sayings rather than tackling the Quran which you understand in the original form?

i will get to the other points later,

i am implying brainwashing, rather than advocating.

Why is it not logical to reject questionable 'sayings' when they go against the literal word of God?

because when every cleric admits to it, al azhar admits to it, who are you exactly to say no to it?

do you have a degree in islamic studies from al azhar (or elsewhere really)?

i listen to a qualified cleric and islamic professor, not a shafique on an internet forum.
simple really.

Do you have any indication of mass conversions from Islam to Coptic Christianity?

the most considerable "mass" wave of converts occured after the breast feeding incident was brought up into the public eye - hence it was considered a very profound incident. converts didnt necessarily convert to coptic - but suffice to say they denounced muhammad as a prophet.

I don't follow you logic ebonics. you are doing the same thing. How is that Christianity is not fabricated or Jesus and god are one. It's because you were taught these from when you were born and you cant simply ignore it.

How can you prove that a god exists? rather than it's what you feel or what you want to believe.

If I go in that direction, I would go for the whole package.

ebonics wrote:

Why is it not logical to reject questionable 'sayings' when they go against the literal word of God?

because when every cleric admits to it, al azhar admits to it, who are you exactly to say no to it?

So you say I should abandon logic and blindly follow a 'cleric' that you quote?

Did you know that in Islam there is no priesthood?

ebonics wrote:do you have a degree in islamic studies from al azhar (or elsewhere really)?

No, do you?

ebonics wrote:i listen to a qualified cleric and islamic professor, not a shafique on an internet forum.
simple really.

I'm not asking you to follow me but invite people to use what is between their ears.

ebonics wrote:

Do you have any indication of mass conversions from Islam to Coptic Christianity?

the most considerable "mass" wave of converts occured after the breast feeding incident was brought up into the public eye - hence it was considered a very profound incident. converts didnt necessarily convert to coptic - but suffice to say they denounced muhammad as a prophet.

If you are not going to take my word, should I take your word for this 'mass conversion' from Islam over a report on breast feeding?

Anyway, let me know when you have started the 'disection'.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique, your ignorance astounds me.


the cleric i quote has NO reason to say that this hadith is in fact true and valid (it does him way more harm than good saying so) but at least he has the decency to speak the truth... but again, you havent bothered looking it up, even though i did quote the hadith by number - you just turn a blind eye and call that using your brain - i repeat your ignorance astounds me.

al azhar is defined as the supreme council of islamic affairs - and is the number one source of islamic teachings and islamic tertiary studies. they dont deny it, in fact the whole hadith of Suckling is on their website. with all its respective parts, in english (albeit the worst english i think i ever read - wonder who translates these things)

http://www.islamic-council.com/esonna_u ... fault1.asp

and as the link indicates, again, this is a sonna website - there are hardly any shiates in egypt.

i never said i have any degree in islamic studies, as such im not making claims, instead im quoting the top of the food chain here as illustrated above... what else do you want me to do? quote wikipedia?

taken from the azhar's website's mission statement

Mission



1- Publishing educational and cultural periodical papers in Arabic and other languages.
2- Providing an easy explanation and a good translation for the Qur'an.
3- Search for all the " Ahadeeth ", classifying them and providing explanation in details.
4- Trying to help people to memorize the holy Qur'an and its intonation in the Islamic countries.
5- Providing the articles concerning the Islamic heritage in a useful scientific way and easy to use.
6- Publishing encyclopedias in all the Islamic sciences.
7- Studying the Muslims' situation and publishing information about it.
8- Cooperating with other councils targeting the same objectives and missions in the other countries.
9- Publishing an Islamic magazine in Arabic language with translations for some articles and be published in Cairo.
10- Identifying Islam all over the world, tracing all the claims and falsify it.

i ask you - what other credible source do you want me to quote? do you want me to bring God himself to hand in a written statement with 2 witnesses and stamped from the department of religious affairs, then the department of foreign affairs? then the embassy of the heavens above?

regarding what i said, i dont expect you to take my word for it, take it with a grain of salt - doesnt phase me.. but thats what happened.


spoonman, as i already said to shafique before, i dont expect you to understand my spiritual stance that i lead my life by. this is for me to live by.

ebonics wrote:i ask you - what other credible source do you want me to quote?

The Quran.

Cheers,
Shafique

ebonics wrote:spoonman, as i already said to shafique before, i dont expect you to understand my spiritual stance that i lead my life by. this is for me to live by.

I am neither a Muslim nor a Christian. and I'm losing faith to the whole god concept. I just wanted to hear your perspective, but no problem.

Al Azhar university does not say that all Hadith in the Sahih are correct. This certainly is not part of the mission statement.

Anyone that seeks to describe Islam from peripheral texts which no one follows or believe are relevant is either being deliberately provokative or incredibly (to borrow ebonic's words) ignorant.

Muslims believe the Quran's claims that it is the literal word of God. ebonic has said he can 'disect' the Quran - and show it is a total fabrication.

I am waiting to see if this is a fantasy (like planet x, or that Islam was spread by the sword) or something that will be backed up with some relevant posts.



Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:

ebonics wrote:i ask you - what other credible source do you want me to quote?

The Quran.

you want me to quote the quran for a hadith!?


the azhar lists the hadith in question in the lists of hadith's on their website, as shown by the link the "suckling" hadith of several parts.

I am waiting to see if this is a fantasy (like planet x, or that Islam was spread by the sword) or something that will be backed up with some relevant posts.

ok mr wikipedia, when im done collecting relevant date, you'll be speechless, for the 2nd time. - things take time.

not to mention, every source i seem to look into seems to be blocked in this god forsaken hell hole..


now you understand my youtube share-holding...

ebonics - can we discuss the authenticity of hadith after you have finished 'disecting' the Quran. (hopefully we will have finished this before the world ends in 2012)

Cheers,
Shafique

you wont even find an answer to the authenticity of the hadith by then i can appreciate if you cant admit your precious prophet said something so outlandish but when azhar clerics do - your opinion counts for squat.... you'll never admit he (or you for that matter) are wrong.

by precedance - you should be answering the claims of the hadith first (THROUGH RESEARCH NOT PERSONAL OPINION)... by then i would have compiled enough evidence against the quran.

ebonics wrote:you wont even find an answer to the authenticity of the hadith by then i can appreciate if you cant admit your precious prophet said something so outlandish but when azhar clerics do - your opinion counts for squat.... you'll never admit he (or you for that matter) are wrong.

by precedance - you should be answering the claims of the hadith first (THROUGH RESEARCH NOT PERSONAL OPINION)... by then i would have compiled enough evidence against the quran.

No, sorry I won't admit that the prophet, pbuh, said any outlandish things.

As I said, we can discuss the authenticity of hadith after we have finished with your 'disecting' of the Quran.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:
As I said, we can discuss the authenticity of hadith after we have finished with your 'disecting' of the Quran.

use this time to research your material to do with the authenticity thoroughly, because i will not tolerate your personal opinion after i do in fact write my post about the quran. (that you will also dismiss as heressey - i dealt with your kind plenty, so eager to ask for proof, when proof arises, proof is never valid - case in point)

ebonics wrote:

use this time to research your material to do with the authenticity thoroughly, because i will not tolerate your personal opinion after i do in fact write my post about the quran. (that you will also dismiss as heressey - i dealt with your kind plenty, so eager to ask for proof, when proof arises, proof is never valid - case in point)

I'm sorry you feel so strongly about breastfeeding.

I'm also sorry if I gave you the impression that I would be concerned about whether you would 'tolerate' my explanation of Hadith or not.

However I am waiting patiently for your 'disection' of the Quran. Do we have an expected date for the first post on the subject?

(And just to be clear, I won't engage in you on historical points on stories of the compilation of the Quran etc, but will limit myself to discussing what the contents of the Quran say as that is the basis of Islam. You should be able to criticise the Quran for what it is, not what others say about how it came to being - if it was a fabrication, then the text should reveal this.

The reason I won't engage in a historical discussion with you is because you have already dismissed out of hand the fact that Islam wasn't spread by the sword in Egypt - despite the historical references furnished to you.

But it will be an interesting stance if you say 'The Quran is perfect, but it was written by humans and not God'. If you don't believe the Quran is perfect/the word of God, then you will be bringing up points about the contents of the Quran - and on this, I am waiting to answer you as soon as you post.)

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:
I'm sorry you feel so strongly about breastfeeding.

you're confusing me with your prophet shafique.

i wouldnt let my wife breastfeed no one but my offspring - just personally.

this quran disection is going to take much longer than anticipated shafique- thanks to your best friend etisalat which bans anything that slightly threats islam or the quran's integrity...

you're going to have to be a little patient with me.

No problems ebonics, the longer you take the longer I can remain in my state of blissful ignorance of any flaws in the Quran.