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Yes. Every word is the verbatim revelation from God.

What about passages where, presumably, Muhammad or the angel Gabriel are the narrators?

For example, surah 17.001:

Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).

am i the only person that thinks that the kur'an in english makes as much sense as an ESL student that cant make it past his first unit...

ebonics wrote:
why? since when is any animal "clean"? so are you telling me it doesnt say pork is banned?

Pork is banned, but the reason isn't given. By contrast, alcohol and gambling are banned and a reason is given (that there is some good in both, but the bad outweighs the good).

The Quran describes the pig as unclean. What part of the word 'unclean' do you wish me to elaborate on or are you disputing applies to pigs?

ebonics wrote:

shafique wrote:Where women outnumber men, for example after a war, polygamy is a better solution for society than the alternative. That is my opinion - and we do have examples of societal effects of such instances in the 20th century which we can look at and argue over.

I will join you in condemning muslims who are mis-using Islam, but my contention is that they are doing wrongs in spite of Islam, not because of it.

how is polygamy ok in any situation? i cease to understand this - and what is the situation when its vice versa? im sorry thats probably the most flawed hypocritical thing you could possibly justify that with...

Polygamy as described in the Quran is ok when women outnumber men to a large degree - as the case in Europe after the second world war, to quote a recent example.

In most European countries today men have multiple partners and this is not frowned upon, as long as they don't marry more than one at a time. Islam says that you can't have multiple partners, except when you publically marry a second wife and treat both equally.

It is unjust, in my opinion, to deny women in these circumstances the rights or opportunity to marry. You would have them live a life of spinsterhood or single parenthood (after committing adultery or fornication).

ebonics wrote:
ok so here in the UAE - males GRIEVLY outnumber females, according to your logic, its ok for women to marry several men because it is the best solution for society.... if the answer to that is no, thats hypocricy of the highest degree... unless of course, islam openly admits that males and females are not equal (which it does) - to that i will leave you to comment, as i have nothing to say, it says it all.

Males and females are biologically different. Men and women have different social responsibilities which relate to these biological differences. Islam does not ignore these differences, but does go out of its way to explicitly address women and give them equality in all spiritual affairs and also for the first time in religious history give them rights of divorce, property ownership etc.

Islam does not permit women to have multiple husbands - and this difference comes down to biological as well as sociological reasons.

You are free to object to Islam's philosophy and present an alternative, I am happy to explore that alternative and examine whether it better provides for human and societal needs.

ebonics wrote:

shafique wrote:
Ok - I presume you haven't read the Bible

read it many times over, please, raise any question you wish.

Ok - two questions:
1. do you agree with the Christian teachings that all other religions are the work of the devil and not from the one true God?
2. Do you agree that if Hitler found salvation just before he died, he goes to heaven? What about a rapist, paedophile and murderer - if he repents just before being executed, does he go to Heaven? Christianity teaches that for both the answer is 'yes' whilst Mahatma Ghandi goes to hell. Do you agree with this teaching?

ebonics wrote:

shafique wrote:
Interesting - how do you define a 'true Buddhist'? I actually believe in the original teachings of Gautama Buddha - but I disagree, say, with the current teachings of Tibetan Monks - such as the Dalai Lama. Some of his monks worshipped a deity that was aggressive, and there are instances of monks killing other monks over theology.

the buddhists i met would scold me for swatting a fly... let alone kill someone, you need to remember, some things are personal choices, but essentially what you outline there, are fudamentally against everything they believe in.

The Christians I meet will say Jesus taught to turn the other cheek. George W Bush is a born-again Christian.

I believe the violent Tibetan monks and George W all think they are following the teachings of their religion.

ebonics wrote:
thats equal to me bringing out the never-ending list of terrorist acts that muslims seem to carry out all around the world... then turn around and say we're a religion of peace and forgiveness - like they forgot how they opened all of north africa with the edge of their sword, with very little peace and very little forgiveness... and if your history book tells you otherwise, you're reading the wrong ones.

There was a suicide bombing in Sri Lanka this month, there were killings at a university in the US this week, there are killings in Burma, Tibet, Chechnya etc etc - But I take your point, the media highlights 'Islamic terrorism' and we lap it up.

As for North Africa - are you including Ethiopia (Abysinnia) in that, or are your history books glossing over this country?

Anyway - you raised this point as an aside, I'll treat it as such and perhaps as a new topic for the future (suffice to say, history shows Islam (the religion) was not spread by the sword)

And you make a good point - I too would say 'true Muslims' are following Islam. For me true muslims follow the Quran - so the question about what is a true Buddhist should mean - which particular teachings/books do 'true Buddhists' follow?

ebonics wrote:

shafique wrote:
That's an interesting theory. You would therefore have no problem in eating rats, cats, dogs or carrion etc.

Some people think its ok to eat other humans, others see it as a sign of respect to eat the deceased relatives (with the women eating the brains). Do you think religions are wrong to say God has forbidden cannibalism?

im happy to try anything once, i ate horse, gazelle, camel, frogs, snails.. some people eat cats and dogs, some eat rats in asia... everyone eats what they please - i dont see the problem in that, or your point with the first statement for that matter..

cannibalism is a different kettle of fish.

So you agree that God can legitimately outlaw some foods - human flesh for one. So we are just differing on why God should outlaw some food you find tasty.

ebonics wrote:

shafique wrote:
Muslims are human. There were hypocrites among the first Muslims - so I am not surprised at this statement - but not sure what you are saying.. it just indicates that aversion to eating pork is something that is hard to overcome. I know Jews who don't normally eat pork, but will eat spare ribs (because spare ribs from other animals don't taste the same!)

nothing compares to pork

shafique wrote:
You're the one that wants to kill and eat the poor things!

see above - plus there are squillions of them and they're farmed regularly - i refuse to have shark fin soup or any whale products.. i do have a heart.

Fine - enjoy your pork. I'm a little confused that you cite intensive farming of an animal as a reason to enjoy pork and don't eat whale meat which is organic and free range. Hmm.

Why do you have an issue with Jews and Muslims following their religious books and not eating pork?

ebonics wrote:

shafique wrote:
Yes, you can dare say it. Dare I say you have not experienced true peace until you have reached a state where your soul is pleased with God and God is pleased with you?

as i said im quite sure that the god i think of, the god i have experienced, and the god that i believe in, is fundamentally very different to yours and mosts.. people fear god.. i dont see any reason why anyone would "FEAR" god, my god is a god of love, forgiveness, and is a model for everything good in life - hence god will always be pleased with me, i have never done anything greavily terrible to have god frown down upon me for any reason..

My God is most forgiving, gracious and merciful. He is Rahman - i.e. the provider of all the necessary conditions for life, giving without being asked for, the Gracious; He is Raheem - the one who rewards one's for actions, listens to supplications, the Merciful. My God is above all just.

ebonics wrote:
god forgives sinners to killers and everything in between...

Agreed.

ebonics wrote:

shafique wrote:I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him

with all due respect, this basically could be, anyone and everyone... it specifically says from their bretheren, is specifically says words in his mouth - jesus talked as he and god is one and the same - a huge argument when it comes to any muslim admitting that.

Ah - but 18.20 etc shows it can't be everyone. It has to be a prophet that claims to be receiving revelation from God, makes prophecies in God's name and is not murdered/killed - as this is the fate of false prophets according to the Bible.

Jesus did not say what he was saying was God's words, and he made a distinction between himself and God (the father). See Mark 10:18 (Why callest me good, there is none good but God).

Also, Jesus prophecised that there was a message to come after him that will be delivered by a 'comforter' who would only say what God has commanded him.

ebonics wrote:
but the same way you fundamentally believe on blind faith that the kuran is god's own word - and i dont (that verse never said anything about a book, but mouth - i dont see muhammad fullfilling that in any way)

If you call weighing up the facts and continually questioning 'blind faith', then perhaps you are right.

I say for a fact that this is the claim of the Quran, and as such is the only religious text that claims to be the literal word of God.

ebonics wrote:i also believe that jesus is God, and you dont

That is true - but I also believe this is exactly what Jesus taught in the Bible. I have searched in vain for any mention of Jesus saying that anyone should pray to him - if he is not to be prayed to, how can he have thought he was god?

ebonics wrote:and therefore that statement above, points to jesus, and not muhammad - to me....

Sure, Christians say this as well. It is a matter of faith for them.

However it does not explain the fact that Jesus himself said that the Bible does not contain the final religion and that there are more instructions to come:

John 16:
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

I choose the more logical, literal reading of these verses that there is a new message that will be delivered by the new prophet, the same prophet prophecised in Deut 18.18. Jesus is saying that it is not him, and that a new message will come.

At the very least, the message Jesus preached is not complete and he said the Spirit of Truth will come.

Muhammad, pbuh, was known amongst his people as 'Al Amin' - the Truthful - but more importantly, he fulfilled the prophecies of Deut 18.

So, my reading of the bible is that Muhammad, pbuh, more fulfils the prophecies than Jesus (for example, Deut 18 also says the prophet will be like Moses - Moses brought a book, fought wars etc - all things that Muhammad, pbuh, fulfilled but did not apply to Jesus).

My contention is that Christian interpretation that the spirit of truth is the 'Holy Ghost' does not stand up to logic - but this is the least of the problems of Christianity vis-a-vis logic (eg was Jesus praying to himself, when Jesus was 'dead' was God still alive - how many gods are there, and was he ever dead? )

Good luck and congratulations on getting to the end of this marathon post!!



Cheers,
Shafique

ok i really cannot be bothered quoting
im just going to write what i think in dot forms



- how is the pig any less clean than any other animal, a cow, a horse, a dog...


- males and females are biologically different granted, but you are talking as if it would be best for the society to have multiple partners - that was your argument... if that is the case, then its one for all - biological difference shouldnt be a hurdle.

side note, how many wives did muhammad have? why were muslims only allowed 4?


- do not single out george bush and say he's a born again christian, as i previously said, he can practice whatver he wants to practice, but at the end of the day its personal choice, its free will, its what makes us humans... cognition and free will.

i dont single out osama bin laden, its his free will to be who he is, a lot of my muslim friends are wonderful people that are far more peaceful than most americans ---- it is free will, within one's self.


- islam did spread by the sword, in most if not all of north africa, egypt went down in battles, the copts of egypt were forced to PAY "gizyah" to stick to their faith, hence now egypt's only left with a 3% coptic population, continuously opressed by muslim groups - that are only kept at bay with threats from the UN and washington straight to the president to intervene if things get out of hand.

egypt is one of the biggest melting pots of religous controversy you'll ever encounter, because they deny it and pretend everything is all good, and everyone's happy...... its quality quality viewing and reading.

- regarding christians denouncing other religions, quote me scriptures please.

- like you said "allah" is forgiving to anyone and everyone, anyone that repents, and truely means it - shall be forgiven... thats what god is about, forgiveness..

I say for a fact that this is the claim of the Quran, and as such is the only religious text that claims to be the literal word of God.

you're right, claims... i can claim i am the catalyst of the universe, i hold the truth about parallel universes, spiritual freedom, transcendance, the most religious of entheogenic states.... and i'd be just as credible. it is ink to paper, no words from a divine being.


the kura'an denies that jesus is alive, it says something alone the lines of, he didn't transcend into the heavens, but they imagined that it happened...... where they all the jews congregating in a mass dose of LSD at the time?? how exactly did they "imagine" that it happened??


i think ill leave it here, we'll go around in circles otherwise... over and out.

valkyrie wrote:

Yes. Every word is the verbatim revelation from God.

What about passages where, presumably, Muhammad or the angel Gabriel are the narrators?

For example, surah 17.001:

Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).

Yes, this verse is God speaking. '...We did bless..' indicates it is not the Prophet, pbuh, or Gabriel narrating.

The angel Gabriel was the means of transmission of the verses, but the words are God's.

There are other narrative type verses where God recounts the prayers he taught Abraham and others - but in all cases the words are from God.

Cheers,
Shafique

ebonics wrote:am i the only person that thinks that the kur'an in english makes as much sense as an ESL student that cant make it past his first unit...

I hear that the Bible translated into Yoruba is a blast as well!

Cheers
Shafique

ebonics wrote:- how is the pig any less clean than any other animal, a cow, a horse, a dog...

In many ways. Are you saying pigs are as clean?

ebonics wrote:- males and females are biologically different granted, but you are talking as if it would be best for the society to have multiple partners - that was your argument... if that is the case, then its one for all - biological difference shouldnt be a hurdle.

In certain limited circumstances polygamy is better than the alternative.

ebonics wrote:side note, how many wives did muhammad have? why were muslims only allowed 4?

Because God said so. The prophet had more than 4 wives at some points in his life - but for most of his life he only had one wife, his first (and they married when he was 25 and she was 40).

ebonics wrote:- do not single out george bush and say he's a born again christian, as i previously said, he can practice whatver he wants to practice, but at the end of the day its personal choice, its free will, its what makes us humans... cognition and free will.

No doubt - but you said 'true Buddhists' which sparked off this particular line of discussion.

ebonics wrote:i dont single out osama bin laden, its his free will to be who he is, a lot of my muslim friends are wonderful people that are far more peaceful than most americans ---- it is free will, within one's self.

Bush has killed more than Osama - so I'm happy to compare and contrast.

ebonics wrote:- islam did spread by the sword, in most if not all of north africa, egypt went down in battles, the copts of egypt were forced to PAY "gizyah" to stick to their faith, hence now egypt's only left with a 3% coptic population, continuously opressed by muslim groups - that are only kept at bay with threats from the UN and washington straight to the president to intervene if things get out of hand.

Jizya was a tax that also exempted the non-Muslims from military duty, and the Muslims paid a higher tax - Zakaat and other taxes.

Fine, we are reading different history books if you insist Islam was spread by the sword.

Do you also disagree it is the fastest growing religion in the US and UK today?

ebonics wrote:egypt is one of the biggest melting pots of religous controversy you'll ever encounter, because they deny it and pretend everything is all good, and everyone's happy...... its quality quality viewing and reading.

And this has what to do with the integrity of the Quran?

ebonics wrote:- regarding christians denouncing other religions, quote me scriptures please.

All the Christians I've met say that Hinduism and Buddhism and Islam are the works of the devil as they are not the works of God.

Salvation is only through the belief in Christ - all others are not from God. Hence my second question about Hitler going to heaven but Ghandi going to hell - do you agree with this philosophy of Christianity (that you are automatically saved when you believe in Jesus' sacrifice)?

I can look up the quotations if you wish - but this is a central teaching of Christianity (or do you disagree?)

ebonics wrote:
- like you said "allah" is forgiving to anyone and everyone, anyone that repents, and truely means it - shall be forgiven... thats what god is about, forgiveness..

Agreed.

ebonics wrote:

I say for a fact that this is the claim of the Quran, and as such is the only religious text that claims to be the literal word of God.

you're right, claims... i can claim i am the catalyst of the universe, i hold the truth about parallel universes, spiritual freedom, transcendance, the most religious of entheogenic states.... and i'd be just as credible. it is ink to paper, no words from a divine being.

Yes, that is why all claims should be tested - tested firstly against logic and then against personal experience.

At least we agree that the claim is made, and that the Quran is unique in this claim.

Anyway - thank you.

In this interesting discussion, not once have we come across a contradiction in the Quran - you've questioned some of the teachings and philosophy, but not pointed to any contradictions (at least not yet).

Perhaps you have some contradictions you'd like to present for discussion?

ebonics wrote:
the kura'an denies that jesus is alive, it says something alone the lines of, he didn't transcend into the heavens, but they imagined that it happened...... where they all the jews congregating in a mass dose of LSD at the time?? how exactly did they "imagine" that it happened??


i think ill leave it here, we'll go around in circles otherwise... over and out.

The Quran says that Jesus appeared to die. I believe that God heard Jesus' pleas and saved him - it was a matter of miraculous survival and not miraculous ressurection.

I believe in logic.

And again, no contradiction in the Quran on this point.

I see you glossed over the point that Jesus prophecised a new prophet after him and that his message wasn't the final one. Easy to do when it is a long post


Cheers,
Shafique

as i said im leaving it where i left it


i will correct you that the jizya was what you paid to keep your religion other than islam... not to exempt you from military duty... thats complete false information.

ebonics wrote:as i said im leaving it where i left it


i will correct you that the jizya was what you paid to keep your religion other than islam... not to exempt you from military duty... thats complete false information.

Jizya is a tax that was payable by non-Muslims, Muslims paid different taxes. Non-muslims were exempt from military duty, Muslims weren't.

So, yes Jizya is what you paid if you weren't a Muslim - but it is not as if Muslims did not pay other taxes - they did and they had more responsibilities. That is why nonMuslims lived at peace under Muslim rule in Jerusalem, and the Jews called the Muslim rule of Spain their 'Golden Age'.

Cheers,
Shafique

and do you know, what happened if you cannot pay the jizya?

ebonics wrote:and do you know, what happened if you cannot pay the jizya?

They sent the tax man/bailiff round?

What happened to Muslims who didn't pay their tax?

(Also, please specify the date/region you are referring to and do me the favour and compare what the method of tax collection and punishment for avoidance was in say England at the same time).

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Do you also disagree it is [Islam] the fastest growing religion in the US

Well, not sure about the UK, but in the US, Islam is only the 9th fastest growing religion.
Here are the growth rates according to adherents.com:

1. Deist - 71.1% per year
2. Sikhism - 33.8% per year
3. New Age - 24.0% per year
4. Hindusim - 23.7% per year
5. Baha't - 20.0 % per year
6. Buddhism - 17.0% per year
7. Native American Religion - 11.9% per year
8. Non-Religious / Secular - 11.0% per year
9. Islam - 10.9% per year.

In 2002, Islam fell from 4th to 5th Place among American religions when it was surpassed by Buddhism. In 2005 it fell to 6th Place when it was surpassed by Hinduism.

shafique wrote:we are reading different history books if you insist Islam was spread by the sword.

I know you believe the Muslim myth that Islam spread peacefully, but why armies would have been needed is a bit problematic to explain.

shafique wrote:

ebonics wrote:and do you know, what happened if you cannot pay the jizya?

They sent the tax man/bailiff round?

What happened to Muslims who didn't pay their tax?

(Also, please specify the date/region you are referring to and do me the favour and compare what the method of tax collection and punishment for avoidance was in say England at the same time).

Cheers,
Shafique

ill rephrase the question, in the period directly after islam rose to power, what happened to none muslims that were un-able to pay the jizya?

ebonics wrote:
ill rephrase the question, in the period directly after islam rose to power, what happened to none muslims that were un-able to pay the jizya?

That's an oxymoron - if one hasn't got any means then the jizya is zero. If you mean what happened to those who refused to pay the jizya - again, you'll have to specify in which country/geographical area and what period.

For example in England, refusing to pay the local king/baron's taxes was considered treason and the people were killed.

Also in Europe, Jews were subject to special taxes - most notoriously in some periods they had gold from their teeth extracted!

Cheers,
Shafique

its not an oxymoron... you're avoiding the question

ill break it down in simple terms for you


north africa, either jew, aethiest, or christian

muslim armies move in, with their armies, swords, leaving a huge trail of blood shed...


you're given 2 choices, convert or pay the jizya


if you dont take neither, what happened?

i already know the answer, the answer is you die...


now keep going around in circles all you wish.

ebonics wrote:its not an oxymoron... you're avoiding the question

ill break it down in simple terms for you


north africa, either jew, aethiest, or christian

muslim armies move in, with their armies, swords, leaving a huge trail of blood shed...


you're given 2 choices, convert or pay the jizya


if you dont take neither, what happened?

i already know the answer, the answer is you die...


now keep going around in circles all you wish.

The options actually were:

Convert and become Muslim and be subject to taxes Muslims pay, or stay non-Muslim and pay the jizya. Paying the jizya exempted you from military duty.

You seem to ignore the fact that becoming a Muslim required converts to pay taxes and also obligated them to do more civically than non-muslims.

If people chose to not pay taxes in Europe, they were killed. If people chose to not pay taxes in some Muslim jurisdictions, they were killed.

Do you object to taxes?

(And since you are replying to posts - are you going to answer the question about whether you agree with Christianity's view about all non-Christians going to hell?)

I take it you also do not have any Quranic contradictions for our consideration.

Cheers,
Shafique

in regards to teh question you keep asking me, i asked you for scriptures.

shafique wrote: the Quran clarifies that a day for God is not the same as 24 hours on earth (one rotation of the earth). 'Yaum' = 'day' is also used for a 'period' or 'aeon' or 'epoch' or even 'stages'.

OK, but why then does the Quran say in some instances that earth was created in 6 periods and in another in 8 periods?

shafique wrote: Other verses about the moon and sun (following their appointed orbits) point to the earth being a globe

Could you specify where the Quran says the earth is a globe? Numerous texts in the Quran indicate the earth is flat

Flying Dutchman wrote:

shafique wrote: the Quran clarifies that a day for God is not the same as 24 hours on earth (one rotation of the earth). 'Yaum' = 'day' is also used for a 'period' or 'aeon' or 'epoch' or even 'stages'.

OK, but why then does the Quran say in some instances that earth was created in 6 periods and in another in 8 periods?

If you can get the references for 8 periods me, I'll look them up and comment. This could be a proper contradiction for me to look into as I've found the verses in relation to 6 periods (I think you quoted some references before, but if you could indulge me and give them to me again - thanks).

A ref for 6 periods is here:
Al-A`raf Chapter 7 : Verse 54
Surely, your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and the earth in six periods, then He settled Himself firmly on the Throne. He makes the night cover the day, which it pursues swiftly, And He created the sun and the moon and the stars - all made subservient by His command. Verily, His is the creation and the command. Blessed is Allah, Lord of the worlds.

another here:


Yunus Chapter 10 : Verse 3
Verily, your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods, then He settled HimSELF firmly on the Throne; He governs everything. There is no intercessors with Him save after His permission. This is Allah, your Lord, so worship Him. Will you not, then, mind?

Similarly 11.7 talks about 6 periods.

Flying Dutchman wrote:

shafique wrote: Other verses about the moon and sun (following their appointed orbits) point to the earth being a globe

Could you specify where the Quran says the earth is a globe? Numerous texts in the Quran indicate the earth is flat

[/quote]

As I said before, I do not think the verses saying the earth is spread out indicates that the earth is completely flat. The following verse shows this clearly:


Al-Ra`d Chapter 13 : Verse 3
And He it is Who spread out the earth and made therein mountains and rivers, and of fruits of every kind He made therein two sexes. He causes the night to cover the day. Therein, verily, are Signs for a people who reflect.

Note that 'spreading out the earth' and 'creating mountains, rivers..' is quite clear and does not say or imply that the earth is flat.

The verses about the orbits of sun and moon are:
Al-Anbiya' Chapter 21 : Verse 33
And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, each gliding along smoothly in its orbit.

YaSin Chapter 36 : Verse 40
It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day. All of them float smoothly in an orbit.

Whilst these don't explicitly say the earth is a globe, the do say that the sun and moon glides in orbits relative to the earth - which is in accordance with the earth being a globe.

Anyway, the main point is that the 13.3 shows clearly that the Quran does not say the earth is completely flat - far from it, the mountains and valleys are cited as examples of God's creation.

Cheers,
Shafique

ebonics wrote:in regards to teh question you keep asking me, i asked you for scriptures.

You want me to quote from scripture that Christians believe only those who believe in Christ's sacrifice go to heaven? Really?

Ok, not a problem (sorry, I'm just a little surprised that I'd be asked to look up the reference - I've always been told this is the main teaching of Christianity).

Let me know if you disagree with the following which was written by a Christian:

Is Jesus the only way to Heaven?

Satan, the ruler of the world, plants these thoughts in our heads. He, and anyone who follows his ways, is an enemy to God (1Pet 5:8).

Satan always disguises himself as good (2 Corinthians 11:14),
but he has control over all the minds that do not belong to God. "Satan, the god of this evil world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe, so they are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News that is shining upon them. They don't understand the message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God" (2 Corinthians 4:4).

It is a lie to believe that God doesn't care about small sins, and that hell is reserved for "bad people." All sin separates us from God, even a “little white lie”. Everyone has sinned, and no one is good enough to get to heaven on their own (Romans 3:23).

Getting into heaven is not based on whether our good outweighs our bad; we will all lose out if that is the case. "And if they are saved by God's kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God's wonderful kindness would not be what it really is - free and undeserved" (Romans 11:6).

We can do nothing good to earn our way to heaven (Titus 3:5).


"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16).
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23).
Jesus was born so that He could teach us the way and die for our sins so that we would not have to. Three days after His death, He rose from the grave (Romans 4:25), proving Himself victorious over death. He bridged the gap between God and man so that we may have a personal relationship with Him if we would only believe.

"And this is the way to have eternal life - to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth" (John 17:3).

Most people believe in God, even Satan does. But to receive salvation, we must turn to God, form a personal relationship, turn away from our sins, and follow Him. We must trust in Jesus with everything we have and everything we do.
"We are made right in God's sight when we trust in Jesus Christ to take away our sins. And we all can be saved in this way, no matter who we are or what we have done" (Romans 3:22).

The Bible teaches that there is no other way to salvation than through Christ. Jesus says in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."


Jesus is the only way of salvation because He is the only One who can pay our sin penalty (Romans 6:23). No other religion teaches the depth or seriousness of sin and its consequences. No other religion offers the infinite payment of sin that only Jesus Christ could provide. No other “religious founder” was God become man (John 1:1,14) – the only way an infinite debt could be paid. Jesus had to be God so that He could pay our debt. Jesus had to be man so He could die. Salvation is available only through faith in Jesus Christ! “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).


Ok - so do you agree that all non-Christians are going to Hell?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:If you can get the references for 8 periods me, I'll look them up and comment.

Flying Dutchman wrote:41: 9 Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ?
41: 10 He set on the (earth) Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in Four Days…
41: 12 So He completed them (heavens) as seven firmaments in Two days and …

4+2+2=8

shafique wrote:
Note that 'spreading out the earth' and 'creating mountains, rivers..' is quite clear and does not say or imply that the earth is flat.

Also int he Quran the earth in compared to a carpet...I will look up the exact reference(s) tomorrow.

Flying Dutchman wrote:

shafique wrote:If you can get the references for 8 periods me, I'll look them up and comment.

Flying Dutchman wrote:41: 9 Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ?
41: 10 He set on the (earth) Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in Four Days…
41: 12 So He completed them (heavens) as seven firmaments in Two days and …

4+2+2=8

Thanks for re-posting.

41.10 refers to 4 days and these include the 2 days of 41.9. In the first two 'days' the earth was created, but in four 'days' the mountains etc were created. The extra two days refer to the two periods: 1. create mountains - i.e. geological formations on the earth, and 2. creation of vegetation/water ways etc.


41.10 is clearly talking about the earth '..placed therein' and the 2 days of 41.9 are part of the 4 days of 41.10. Creation of earth took 2 days - ball of gas stage, then solidification of the crust as second stage - then geological formations, then vegetation and water cycle.

Thus it is 4+2 = 6 - consistent with the other verses quoted.

For your reference about the word 'day' not meaning 24 hours:
look at verses 22.47 and 70.4.

Flying Dutchman wrote:

shafique wrote:
Note that 'spreading out the earth' and 'creating mountains, rivers..' is quite clear and does not say or imply that the earth is flat.

Also int he Quran the earth in compared to a carpet...I will look up the exact reference(s) tomorrow.

Ok - but again even 41.10 quoted above talks about the creation of mountains, so as far as I can tell the Quran is pretty clear that there are mountains on earth!

In the meantime a couple of verses I found about the spreading of the earth:
Qaf Chapter 50 : Verse 7
And the earth - We have spread it out, and placed therein firm mountains; and We have made to grow therein every kind of beautiful species,


Al-Dhariyat Chapter 51 : Verse 48
And the earth We have spread out, and how excellently do We spread it out!

50.7 uses identical words to 51.48, and in the former, mountains are mentioned as part of the earth - so clearly, the spreading out of the earth is not saying that it is flat but that it is an extended land mass which contains mountains, valleys etc.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:

ebonics wrote:in regards to teh question you keep asking me, i asked you for scriptures.

You want me to quote from scripture that Christians believe only those who believe in Christ's sacrifice go to heaven? Really?

Ok, not a problem (sorry, I'm just a little surprised that I'd be asked to look up the reference - I've always been told this is the main teaching of Christianity).

Let me know if you disagree with the following which was written by a Christian:

Is Jesus the only way to Heaven?

Satan, the ruler of the world, plants these thoughts in our heads. He, and anyone who follows his ways, is an enemy to God (1Pet 5:8).

Satan always disguises himself as good (2 Corinthians 11:14),
but he has control over all the minds that do not belong to God. "Satan, the god of this evil world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe, so they are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News that is shining upon them. They don't understand the message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God" (2 Corinthians 4:4).

It is a lie to believe that God doesn't care about small sins, and that hell is reserved for "bad people." All sin separates us from God, even a “little white lie”. Everyone has sinned, and no one is good enough to get to heaven on their own (Romans 3:23).

Getting into heaven is not based on whether our good outweighs our bad; we will all lose out if that is the case. "And if they are saved by God's kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God's wonderful kindness would not be what it really is - free and undeserved" (Romans 11:6).

We can do nothing good to earn our way to heaven (Titus 3:5).


"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16).
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23).
Jesus was born so that He could teach us the way and die for our sins so that we would not have to. Three days after His death, He rose from the grave (Romans 4:25), proving Himself victorious over death. He bridged the gap between God and man so that we may have a personal relationship with Him if we would only believe.

"And this is the way to have eternal life - to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth" (John 17:3).

Most people believe in God, even Satan does. But to receive salvation, we must turn to God, form a personal relationship, turn away from our sins, and follow Him. We must trust in Jesus with everything we have and everything we do.
"We are made right in God's sight when we trust in Jesus Christ to take away our sins. And we all can be saved in this way, no matter who we are or what we have done" (Romans 3:22).

The Bible teaches that there is no other way to salvation than through Christ. Jesus says in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."


Jesus is the only way of salvation because He is the only One who can pay our sin penalty (Romans 6:23). No other religion teaches the depth or seriousness of sin and its consequences. No other religion offers the infinite payment of sin that only Jesus Christ could provide. No other “religious founder” was God become man (John 1:1,14) – the only way an infinite debt could be paid. Jesus had to be God so that He could pay our debt. Jesus had to be man so He could die. Salvation is available only through faith in Jesus Christ! “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).


Ok - so do you agree that all non-Christians are going to Hell?

Cheers,
Shafique

you see shafique, the credibility of what a christian wrote, to me, is as credible as the qur'an... his argument is all fine and dandy, but it is a cynical close minded view that has about 0 credibility, because who is he to judge..


in regards to the scripture, i believe, jesus is life and is in everything, jesus is god, not a figure or a human, and god is all around us in everything he's ever created..


you can find salvation through faith... as such, no i dont believe you need to be christian to go to heaven - anyone that would tell you otherwise is a complete bigot and is the reason i dont do "religion" anymore..


shafique, are you familiar with terrence mckenna? he would explain life far better than i ever could, or any archiac book of scriptures could... look him up. a dead man now, but he is a true visionary that got things right - very few people do.

ebonics wrote:you see shafique, the credibility of what a christian wrote, to me, is as credible as the qur'an... his argument is all fine and dandy, but it is a cynical close minded view that has about 0 credibility, because who is he to judge..

Actually, my intention in posting what the Christian wrote was to give you the Biblical references you requested and also the context. The scripture clearly states that Satan is the ruler of the world, the only way to salvation is Christ and therefore the non-Christians are all worshipping Satan and going to Hell.

Do you assign 0 credibility to the Biblical references given?

This is what all the Christians I have met have confirmed the Bible teaches.

If you have a different interpretation of Christianity - fine. But I would submit that this different interpretation is not in accordance with the verses of the Bible you requested I provide.

ebonics wrote:in regards to the scripture, i believe, jesus is life and is in everything, jesus is god, not a figure or a human, and god is all around us in everything he's ever created..

Ok - but what does the Bible say?

ebonics wrote: you can find salvation through faith... as such, no i dont believe you need to be christian to go to heaven - anyone that would tell you otherwise is a complete bigot and is the reason i dont do "religion" anymore..

The question though is whether Christians believe the ONLY way to salvation is through Christ.

ebonics wrote:shafique, are you familiar with terrence mckenna? he would explain life far better than i ever could, or any archiac book of scriptures could... look him up. a dead man now, but he is a true visionary that got things right - very few people do.

No, I'm not familiar with Terrence - is he a relation of Paul?

Does he think that Islam/Hindusim etc is a religion revealed by God, or a religion revealed by Satan?

Anyway, it seems that (reading between the lines) you do not agree with the Bible when it says the only way to Heaven is to believe in Jesus, and you do not believe that all other religions are Satan's handiwork. Is that fair?

If so, then you have more in common with me than with Christians on this point.

Cheers,
Shafique

In sura 27.91, the verse says: "I have been commanded to serve the Lord of this city."

The word 'say' is lacking in the original Arabic (according to what I'm reading). Wouldn't the speaker then, clearly be Muhammad?

shafique wrote:Yes, this verse is God speaking. '...We did bless..' indicates it is not the Prophet, pbuh, or Gabriel narrating.

In that verse, God is praising himself. Does God praise himself? In another verse (75.1) God makes an oath to himself. Again, why would God do that?

In 19.64-65, it says: We come not down save by commandment of thy Lord. Unto Him belongeth all that is before us and all that is behind us and all that is between those two, and thy Lord was never forgetful

Lord of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them! Therefor, worship thou Him and be thou steadfast in His service. Knowest thou one that can be named along with Him?

That would indicate to me, that the angels in this verse are speaking. I know one of the English translations again has 'say,' but that is added to the beginning of the sentence. If you can read Arabic, maybe you can confirm that.

Ch 19:
64. (The angels say:) "We descend not but by command of thy Lord: to Him belongeth what is before us and what is behind us, and what is between: and thy Lord never doth forget,-
65. "Lord of the heavens and of the earth, and of all that is between them; so worship Him, and be constant and patient in His worship: knowest thou of any who is worthy of the same Name as He?"
66. Man says: "What! When I am dead, shall I then be raised up alive?"
67. But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?
68. So, by thy Lord, without doubt, We shall gather them together, and (also) the Evil Ones (with them); then shall We bring them forth on their knees round about Hell;

'(The angels say)' isn't in the arabic - but it is understood for the following reasons: 1. Ch 19 opens with 'in the name of Allah..'
2. 19.66 records the reply to the statement - which is clearly meant to be illustrative (not all men deny life after death).
3. v67 clearly is stating that God is speaking.

We all agree that v64 refer to words spoken by angels - but these are narrated by God as per v67. God is just quoting what the angels say and what 'man' replies.

27.91 also omits the 'say' - see Pikthall's translation:
027.091 (Say): I (Muhammad) am commanded only to serve the Lord of this land which He hath hallowed, and unto Whom all things belong. And I am commanded to be of those who surrender (unto Him),
027.092 And to recite the Qur'an. And whoso goeth right, goeth right only for (the good of) his own soul; and as for him who goeth astray - (Unto him) say: Lo! I am only a warner.
027.093 And say: Praise be to Allah Who will show you His portents so that ye shall know them. And thy Lord is not unaware of what ye (mortals) do.

v92 and v93 (the very next verses) all contain the instruction 'say' - showing it is God speaking/narrating/instructing.

And does God praise himself or make an oath with himself? No, he does not.

He does however narrate the Quran.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique , get someone to translate this for you - this is straight out of a muslim channel





go to the link within you tube - and if you're confident enough in your faith, you can talk direct to the person pictured through skype and argue with him all you want... and i assure you - he will come up on top.

he has been the cause of conversion for thousands of muslim now, and there's millions of dollars diety on his head (its the only way muslims could deal with him, is kill him) - a matter which also forced him to exile and find shelter in europe... where he can continue to open dim minds..


he is also available on your tv, through a satellite dish... if you wish to learn of his teachings..

thats it from me, before a price gets put on my head as well from the folk of your faith - IP addresses are easily tracable these days.

ebionics - I'll see if I can get someone to translate for me (however we can't watch You Tube at work, where all my arabic speaking friends are).

Could you ask the man to post on here in English and show us why Christianity is more logical than Islam etc? Does he believe all non-Christians are going to hell?

Why don't you pick one of his points that he makes and discuss with me here? Start a new thread and let us see if his arguments make sense.

[Edit - one of the you-tube links was dubbed into English - the one where he describes Trinity. His argument was that Christians believe in one God, just like the Muslims. He was quoting from the Quran and was (unconvincingly) arguing that Christians also believe in one God not three. He didn't answer the point about whether Jesus was god or not, and if he was how that would make God 'one' when there was 'god the son' , 'god the father' etc.

Given that he was quoting from the Quran to make his case, I'm surprised you say that he has converted Muslims to Christianity... but I'm always up for a challenge!]

Cheers,
Shafique

as i mentioned, he would only talk through his site - there's millions of dollars for his blood - several "fatwa's" are out by muslim cleriks that have told muslims killing him is considered halal... he wouldnt risk being traced on any other website

his link is stated in the description of hte video, help yourself.

and as such, of course islam is a religion of peace... spare me!

ebonics wrote:as i mentioned, he would only talk through his site - there's millions of dollars for his blood - several "fatwa's" are out by muslim cleriks that have told muslims killing him is considered halal... he wouldnt risk being traced on any other website

his link is stated in the description of hte video, help yourself.

and as such, of course islam is a religion of peace... spare me!

So, does he believe all non-Christians are going to hell?

And are you saying you can't give us one of his points for us to discuss?

[I don't speak Arabic - does he speak/write in English?]

Cheers,
Shafique