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The incident made headlines after a father threw his nine-month-old baby girl from a third-floor window into the waiting hands of a policeman below. Two girls reported seeing a man start the blaze in the city of Ludwigshafen. Of some 60 people who were injured in the fire, 20 of them were Turks. 5 children were burnt to death.

Aparently these hate groups are existing not only in germany but all over the west. The crimes these group committ are horrific and just for hate nothing else. Why they hate- they hate because of color of the skin and religion. Liberal and free westrn media is very good at not disclosing it in a big story but "Beheading by muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan" will be discussed in every expilicit way. westrn comedians will stand up the stage and incite them about how crual islam is and how bad muslims are and then will go on to laugh at every religion and God.

I havnt seen one group of that sort in islamic world except USA backed Al Qaieda who come up with videos of beheading and torture which westrn media will go on to show as a profe.

Since Islam says " Eye for an Eye", I would like to see if arabs or "Muslims" will go on to do the same with white skin civilised westner family living in their streets and burn same number of people in the same fashion afterall killers would never be caught, even if they do catch them they will be released within months. Such is the law implemented in west. The way they punish a murderer, I dont consider that as "Justice". Please dont take me wrong but this is what your Allah says about killing of a human being isnt it.

Lets see if anyone come up with similar idea of that sort of group.

" Eye fo an Eye".

An eye for an eye is actually a Jewish commandment and is actually a call for justice and not excessively punishing a criminal - i.e. the punishment should be proportional to the crime.

My view on the justice system of European countries is that when it comes to crimes against other humans that occur on their soil, the justice is colour blind. I don't think that the murderers will be let off because they killed Turks or would Turks killing white people be punished differently.

Cheers,
Shafique

The full statement is 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth', this was then over ruled by JC in the new testament.

"You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". But I say to you, do not resist an evildoer. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."

jabbajabba wrote:The full statement is 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth', this was then over ruled by JC in the new testament.

"You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". But I say to you, do not resist an evildoer. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."

Jesus also taught that if someone steals your cloak, you should give him your shirt as well.
Luke 6:29
If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic.



My view is that this isn't an abbrogation of the 'eye for an eye' commandment, but a reminder to the Jews that the OT laws did allow for forgiveness, but that at the time of Jesus they had gone too far towards the harsher aspects of the law that they had lost the spirit of the law and were just following the letter. That is why Jesus, whilst a practicing Jew, had so many run-ins with the ruling priestly classes. His preaching to the Jews was to bring them back to the core of their religion.

I view his clarification of what the sabbath was about and the incident of the stoning of the lady (to name but two examples) in a similar vein.

Cheers,
Shafique

My view is that this isn't an abbrogation of the 'eye for an eye' commandment, but a reminder to the Jews that the OT laws did allow for forgiveness

How did you come to that interpretation when Jesus' teachings forbid retaliation and the shedding of blood?

valkyrie wrote:

My view is that this isn't an abbrogation of the 'eye for an eye' commandment, but a reminder to the Jews that the OT laws did allow for forgiveness

How did you come to that interpretation when Jesus' teachings forbid retaliation and the shedding of blood?

Jesus said in the Bible:


"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB)


"But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." (Luke 22:36 NASB)


A sword is a weapon that has only one use - to kill another human being - and therefore is used as protection or for aggression.

Jesus told his disciples to sell their clothes and buy a weapon - and hence go around 'tooled up'.


I know this goes against the pacifist teachings of Christianity as taught in the Church, but the quotes are from the Bible and are Jesus' words.

However, this wasn't the point I was making - I was saying that the OT Judaic law allowed for forgiveness and the 'eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth' was limiting the extent of the punishment. The OT law didn't say you had to exact the same retribution, but that you could not exceed this.

What Jesus taught was not abrogating the law (on this point), but emphasising the forgiveness aspect of the Mosaic law.

Cheers,
Shafique

Jabba:

ya if that eveildoer is someone like Bush Jr who explodes 267 storey building in thirty seconds then you dont just turn your other cheek to him but instead elect him as a president of your country under the baner of democracy and hope that he will bring all the happiness from the heavens for every one.

Seriously what is wrong with you people.

Shaf:

please dont open the gates of your wisdom that wide instead just hold your horses. 50 % will come and agree and 50% will disagree thats what all intellectuals do on this forum. Just learn to live with the facts.

And the fact is they have burnt 5 children in the fire just for hate. killers will get away with it even if they dont plz let us know how many years of prisonment they will get and what your allah says for rights of family who suffered. Can they kill equal number of white skin people for the very same reason.

I'm sorry, but that's a very disingenuous interpretation of that verse. There's a parallel passage in Luke 12:49-53 where Christ uses division instead of sword. The entire entire passage is about Christ warning his disciples that to follow him would create division between them and their families
.
"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo [my death], and how distressed I am until it is completed! 51 Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52 From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

valkyrie wrote:I'm sorry, but that's a very disingenuous interpretation of that verse. There's a parallel passage in Luke 12:49-53 where Christ uses division instead of sword. The entire entire passage is about Christ warning his disciples that to follow him would create division between them and their families
.
"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo [my death], and how distressed I am until it is completed! 51 Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52 From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

I think you are just commenting on the first verse and not the second:

"But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." (Luke 22:36 NASB)

It was this second verse that I commented on - saying that a sword is a killing weapon.

I only interpreted this verse saying that it said the disciples should go round 'tooled up'. Please help me understand how this is 'disingenuous'.

The word 'sword' (in the first quote) comes from the Greek manuscript of Matthew - so it is not my translation. That said, Jesus is saying he is not coming to bring peace but 'division'.


That said, what is your view on Luke 22.36 and the purchasing of weapons.

Cheers,
Shafique

According to an author I am reading, the sword in that verse refers to a dagger or short sword. When Peter attacked the servant of a Roman soldier, Christ rebuked him and said:

Put your sword back in its place...for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. -Matthew 26:52-54

After that incident, there is no evidence that the apostles used violence, even in self defense. Unlike Christ's death, there would certainly be nothing to gain for the early church from the deaths of the apostles.

Jesus is saying he is not coming to bring peace but 'division'.

I view that as Jesus saying that his message would be divisive. Rather than bringing people together, it would tear people apart-even family members. Jesus is saying that his message will cause people to attack those who followed him.

double post sorry - network connection playing up today!

I feel sorry for the poor servant who lost his ear!

So, we have Jesus instructing his disciples to sell their clothes to buy a sword if they don't have one, and we have an example of one disciple using his weapon to chop off an ear.

I agree that the verses about Jesus not bringing peace are about the opposition his message will elicit (this is the reaction all prophets get). It is however an interesting choice of words - to say that Jesus was not coming to bring peace but 'division' or 'the sword'.

I also agree that there are no accounts of other disciples brandishing weapons - but then again, there are no accounts (to my knowledge) that they didn't continue to carry weapons.

I personally don't think it makes much of a difference if it was a sword or dagger that Simon Peter used - but my cursory investigation said that the word used in Greek for sword is different from the word for dagger, so the verses are talking about swords. Now a stiletto (short stabbing dagger) is different from a short fighting sword - perhaps your author was referring to the short swords favoured by Romans and was calling this a 'dagger'?

Also, given an ear was lopped off rather than the person being stabbed implied to me a sweeping, cutting motion of a sword vs the stabbing motion of a dagger. However the short 'pugio' dagger of the Romans could be used in this way - but sword makes more sense to me.

Anyway - its always good to brush up on the Biblical stories, thank you for that.

Cheers,
Shafique

shahrez wrote:Jabba:

ya if that eveildoer is someone like Bush Jr who explodes 267 storey building in thirty seconds then you dont just turn your other cheek to him but instead elect him as a president of your country under the baner of democracy and hope that he will bring all the happiness from the heavens for every one.

Seriously what is wrong with you people.

shahrez - go smoke a camel - Bush is not my president nor did I elect him.

But he is an evildoer isnt he. Why dont you apply ur words of wisdom for someone like him. its because of you and other gandhi lovers who make these evildoers so powerful. They know that no matter what they do, people like u will always be there to turn even their other cheek as well.