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I think the issue of the "universality" of the Bible has been discussed here several times. God is merciful to all, God knows the true nature of people's heart, he is a father who disapproves at times and admonishes but regardless he loves ALL of his children no matter what - salvation is for everyone.

Re: Matthew 10:5 - no where does it say that Jesus wanted *only* the Jews to be preached to. What this particular verse in this particular context states is Jesus giving practical INSTRUCTIONS to his followers for the aim of a bigger plan. he instructs his apostles to start on their mission and where are they to start on a mission if not on the immediate area, if not with the people that Jesus belongs to? Would it make sense for Jesus' followers to start spreading his word outside of his land? The Kingdom of Heaven is for all and it's to be evangelized and spread to all nations after the resurrection.

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freza wrote:I think the issue of the "universality" of the Bible has been discussed here several times. God is merciful to all, God knows the true nature of people's heart, he is a father who disapproves at times and admonishes but regardless he loves ALL of his children no matter what - salvation is for everyone.

Re: Matthew 10:5 - no where does it say that Jesus wanted *only* the Jews to be preached to. What this particular verse in this particular context states is Jesus giving practical INSTRUCTIONS to his followers for the aim of a bigger plan. he instructs his apostles to start on their mission and where are they to start on a mission if not on the immediate area, if not with the people that Jesus belongs to? Would it make sense for Jesus' followers to start spreading his word outside of his land? The Kingdom of Heaven is for all and it's to be evangelized and spread to all nations after the resurrection.

Sorry, I must have a different version of Matthew 10.5:
5These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.'

That says clearly to go to the lost sheep of Israel, the only people Jesus said he was sent to according to Matt 15.24, also quoted in my post.

I do understand that Christian theology is that Christ's message is universal and not limited to the Jews. As discussed before, that is where Muslims disagree with the Bible - where Paul diverges from Jesus' mission and extends the preaching to Gentiles.

Further references for Jesus telling disciples not to preach to non-Jews are:

And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda; for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel. MATTHEW 2.6

The Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David. And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever. LUKE 1.32/33

Where is he that is born the King of the Jews? MATTHEW 2.2

Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord. JOHN 12.13

Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt. JOAN 12.15

For this cause therefore I have called for you, to see you and, to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am hound with this chain. ACTS 28.20

Him that God hath exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. ACTS 5.31

0f this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a saviour. Jesus. ACTS 13.23

CHRIST'S OWN ADMISSION:

It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs. MARK 7.27

For salvation is of the Jews. JOHN 4.22

Verily I say unto you, That which have followed me, in the regeneration when the son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory, ye shall sit upon the twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. MATTHEW 19.28

I appoint unto ye a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. LUKE 22.29/30

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine, least they trample them unto their feet and turn again and rend you. MATTHEW 7.6


Ye know how that it is unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation. ACTS 10.28


Reference that there was dissension in the Early Church:

And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him, Saying, Thou wentest in to the uncircumcised, and didst eat with them. ACTS 11.1/3


Cheers,
Shafique

On the question of stoning of homosexuals - it was in the context of which laws laid down in the OT are still applicable according to Christians. Some Christians do believe this punishment still applies (as do the other laws about murders, stealing etc), others believe that gays can participate in the church as long as they don't practice.

I've read that the list of laws in the NT is not exhaustive - in that if a OT law is not explicitly repeated in the OT, then Christians do not necessarily believe it does not apply (i.e. it can still apply, even though it is not in the NT).

Well, you asked me originally if the New Testament had any law regarding the stoning of homosexuals. I am curious though, do the Christians who tell you that the NT is not exhaustive share these views of theirs with their denomination? Do you know of any mainstream Christians sect that believes that Christians should adhere to laws in the OT that are not mentioned in the NT?

As for the James verse, I don't see how Christ says that good works means to follow the Law. Before that passage, James explains that to break one commandment of the Law is to break them all. So... when Christ touched unclean people and instructed his disciples to eat unclean food (both pre and post crucifixion), it would appear then, that James is saying Jesus is just as guilty as someone who kills or commits adultery. Before that passage, it reads to me that James is telling Christians to follow Jesus' commandments, rather than follow the 613 mitzvot (commandments).

valkyrie wrote:

I've read that the list of laws in the NT is not exhaustive - in that if a OT law is not explicitly repeated in the OT, then Christians do not necessarily believe it does not apply (i.e. it can still apply, even though it is not in the NT).

Well, you asked me originally if the New Testament had any law regarding the stoning of homosexuals. I am curious though, do the Christians who tell you that the NT is not exhaustive share these views of theirs with their denomination? Do you know of any mainstream Christians sect that believes that Christians should adhere to laws in the OT that are not mentioned in the NT?

I've consulted/debated on this specific point with Roman Catholics and 'born again' evangelist protestants (from South Africa).

The point is that whilst they say they are not under the law, some of the laws of the OT are still relevant (the 10 commandments, for example) and that some laws that are not explicitly mentioned in the NT are still relevant (a Christian who is in favour of the death penalty was pretty clear on this point).

What I gathered therefore is that some of the OT laws Christians can choose not to follow, but others they should follow - and you can't necessarily identify the latter from just reading the NT.

valkyrie wrote:As for the James verse, I don't see how Christ says that good works means to follow the Law. Before that passage, James explains that to break one commandment of the Law is to break them all. So... when Christ touched unclean people and instructed his disciples to eat unclean food (both pre and post crucifixion), it would appear then, that James is saying Jesus is just as guilty as someone who kills or commits adultery. Before that passage, it reads to me that James is telling Christians to follow Jesus' commandments, rather than follow the 613 mitzvot (commandments).

Our view of Jesus was that as Messiah for the Jews he came to reform the Judaic practices which had become corrupt 1300 years after the time of Moses. The Jews had got to the point where the letter of the law was being followed and they had lost the spirit (and not to mention the corruption to the scriptures to accompany this).

Examples of this are the meaning of the Sabbath, the emphasis on revenge and the strict interpretation of the law.

However, this verse is clear to me - Jesus says 'just believing' in him is not good enough - it is 'dead' faith. One had to obey God's laws (i.e. not sin) as well as having the belief.

Christians I've spoken to all agree that there are still God's laws that they must follow and that to deliberately violate these rules will be a sign of lack of faith.

They however also say something which does not make sense to me - they say that salvation does not depend on following the laws or not, but that they have to follow them anyway as it is part of 'having faith'.


Cheers,
Shafique