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I know im being stupid here....but can someone explain this situation to me in simple terms.
thanks

Simple .. hmm

Israel is cutting off supplies of food, fuel, medical supplies, etc of a the Gaza strip effectively slowly killing off the 1.5 million Palestinians who live there. Obviously the most affected are the children, elderly and the women. But Israel claims that its doing this to fight the "terrorists" ..

But ofcourse Heath Ledger's death is WAY more important than this right ?

[quote="MaaaD"]Simple .. hmm

Israel is cutting off supplies of food, fuel, medical supplies, etc of a the Gaza strip effectively slowly killing off the 1.5 million Palestinians who live there. Obviously the most affected are the children, elderly and the women. But Israel claims that its doing this to fight the "terrorists" ..

which terrorists?

If only it were so simple.

Of course the issue is not helped by the firing rockets into Israel, but instead of just using their gazillion dollars worth of US supplied weaponry to take out the rocketeers... they're slowly turning the thumbscrews on the already completely screwed Palestinians.

It's just insane.

so can anyone tell me the full story here?

gezza wrote:I know im being stupid here....but can someone explain this situation to me in simple terms.
thanks

Thy themselves cant seem to explain what they're doing and doing the same thing for decades, how can they expect others to explain it to them...

gezza wrote:so can anyone tell me the full story here?

What full story ? the story of Israel's illegal occupation ? or the illegal settlements they built ?

or you completely oblivious to the whole Palestinian-Israeli conflict all together ?

reviewer wrote:

gezza wrote:I know im being stupid here....but can someone explain this situation to me in simple terms.
thanks

Thy themselves cant seem to explain what they're doing and doing the same thing for decades, how can they expect others to explain it to them...

Who do you mean by "They" ?

MaaaD wrote:

reviewer wrote:

gezza wrote:I know im being stupid here....but can someone explain this situation to me in simple terms.
thanks

Thy themselves cant seem to explain what they're doing and doing the same thing for decades, how can they expect others to explain it to them...

Who do you mean by "They" ?

They=Palestinians & Israelis or Israelis & Palestinians whichever you want..

Its a fight over real estate .. umm "holy" real estate

After Israel left Gaza, the Palestinians held elections and the vast majority voted for Hamas (responsible for numerous suicide attacks against Israeli citizens). An unity Palestinian government with Hamas and Fatah was established. Soon Hamas wanted full control and ousted Fatah during a civil war from the Gaza strip. Hamas continued firing Qassam rockets on Israeli cities near Gaza. In the end Israel collectively punished the Gaza strip by refusing fuel supplies entering the Gaza strip and demanded that Hamas stops firing Qassams. Mind you though, Egypt also supplies fuel to the strip, so Gaza is not 100% dependent on fuel imports via Israel.
The solution is extremely simple, Hamas has to stop firing rockets and the crisis is over.

from Economist.com:

UNDER the pressure of Israeli sanctions, Gaza blew a gasket. Early on Wednesday January 23rd, Palestinian militants blasted holes in the corrugated-steel wall that marks the sealed border between Gaza and Egypt. Thousands of Palestinians poured through to buy fuel, food and other supplies. Egyptian troops, limited in numbers by the terms of an Israel-Egypt peace treaty, could only stand by and watch. Fighters from Hamas, which controls the Gaza Strip but did not claim responsibility for breaching the border, stood on the Palestinian side, checking the returning Gazans for contraband and weapons.

The shortages in Gaza have got gradually worse since Israel declared the territory a “hostile entity” last September and began imposing restrictions at the end of October, in response to a continued rain of Qassam rockets onto nearby Israeli towns. Despite warnings from human-rights groups earlier this month that fuel for Gaza’s only power station was running out, Israel closed the entry points into Gaza altogether on January 17th, after a spike in the numbers of Qassams. Three days later the power plant, which supplies around 30% of Gaza’s electricity during the winter—the rest coming directly from Israel and Egypt—shut down, leaving large parts of the region, including Gaza City, without light, heat or running water.

Israeli officials at first accused Hamas, which is in control of Gaza, of exacerbating the crisis for its own ends—although foreign aid workers in Gaza say it does not have any influence over the running of the power station. Israel also claimed that Gaza was still getting three-quarters of its energy needs, though the UN reckoned it was more like 60%. On January 21st, a day after the forced shutdown, Israel relented on its blockade and allowed fuel to be shipped to the Gaza Strip’s power plant. The Israelis saved face by claiming that Gaza had “got the message”: the Qassam fire did reduce sharply.

With the pressure briefly released, Hamas and Egypt will probably co-operate to repair the fence. Egypt's goverment issued a statement warning the Islamist movement that it will not tolerate such a breach again, and Hamas cannot afford to annoy the Egyptians too much. Moreover, it continues to survive thanks to its ability to monitor and tax the goods that are smuggled in through dozens of tunnels under the Egyptian border.

The pressure may indeed have worked temporarily. However, things are now merely back to where they were before. Facing the Qassams, which rarely kill but which keep over 20,000 Israelis who are living near Gaza in permanent fear, Ehud Olmert, Israel’s prime minister, has few choices, none of them attractive.

Doing nothing is politically impossible. Negotiating a ceasefire, which Hamas has offered—although there are doubts about whether it can enforce one among the other militant groups in Gaza—would look like weakness after two years of attempts to squeeze it out of power, and Israel and its close allies are determined to give the Islamist party no quarter. The current approach of intermittent collective punishment for the strip’s 1.4m inhabitants, along with missile attacks on militants, draws international criticism and, as Israeli voters can see, is futile. And a massive army operation to wrest control of the strip from Hamas, which some hawks advocate, would mean many deaths on both sides, and could leave the army policing Gaza indefinitely—a resounding failure for Israel’s “disengagement” from Gaza in 2005.

But with a final report from the commission into the 2006 Lebanon war due next week, which is expected yet again to damn Mr Olmert’s performance, his political rivals are sniffing blood. One party quit his ruling coalition last week. The pressure to look tough is higher than usual.

Since Hamas took over Gaza, Israel’s only hope is that its talks on a Palestinian state with Hamas’s rival, Fatah, which controls the West Bank, will eventually give Gaza’s residents the impetus to rise up and, if not overthrow Hamas, at least put pressure on it to make concessions. But the more Gaza suffers, the harder it is for Fatah’s leader, Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, to carry on those talks. And if, in the oft-discussed nightmare scenario, a Qassam hits a busy Israeli school playground, Israel’s politicians may well feel they have no choice but to launch a retribution that risks destroying the peace process. Israeli and Western policy since the Hamas takeover has been to ignore Gaza for now, but Gaza is showing ever more clearly that it cannot be ignored.

Flying Dutchman wrote:After Israel left Gaza, the Palestinians held elections and the vast majority voted for Hamas (responsible for numerous suicide attacks against Israeli citizens). An unity Palestinian government with Hamas and Fatah was established. Soon Hamas wanted full control and ousted Fatah during a civil war from the Gaza strip. Hamas continued firing Qassam rockets on Israeli cities near Gaza. In the end Israel collectively punished the Gaza strip by refusing fuel supplies entering the Gaza strip and demanded that Hamas stops firing Qassams. Mind you though, Egypt also supplies fuel to the strip, so Gaza is not 100% dependent on fuel imports via Israel.
The solution is extremely simple, Hamas has to stop firing rockets and the crisis is over.

Will stopping the rockets give Gazan's the free access to their borders and seas? I don't think so. Gaza has gone from occupation to the world's biggest prison camp and object lesson in collective punishment.

My solution is that Israel obeys all UN resolutions on Palestine.

Actually - just withdraw to 1967 borders, allow Palestinians the right to return to their land if they were displaced illegally (by international law standards).

Then treat anyone who seeks to kill another human being as the criminals they are - as there won't be a cause for war.

Hamas have offered a ceasefire - why not take them up on it??

To blame the Palestinians for being the aggressors here is to deny the facts of who is suffering more - who is dying more and who is the oppressor and oppressee! Ahh - but why let the facts get in the way of good old prejudice?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Will stopping the rockets give Gazan's the free access to their borders and seas?

Eventually, for sure yes.

shafique wrote:My solution is that Israel obeys all UN resolutions on Palestine.

Agree, Palestinians and all Arab countries should do the same.

shafique wrote:Actually - just withdraw to 1967 borders, allow Palestinians the right to return to their land if they were displaced illegally (by international law standards).

Yep.

shafique wrote:Hamas have offered a ceasefire - why not take them up on it??

You know very well that once they stop firing Qassams, Israel will stop their military actions.

shafique wrote:Ahh - but why let the facts get in the way of good old prejudice?

This whole conflict is one big grey area. Both sides commited atrocities. In this case it is really in the hands of Hamas to stop hostilities. All Hamas wants to do is disrupt the peace negotiations. Shame on those trying to defend Hamas and let them destroy the only hope for peace. Shame, shame, shame!

The only hope for peace is to not oppose the occupiers and they will hand back the land and freedoms?

Hmmm.

To my knowledge this has never worked in human history and Israel is continuing to confiscate land and build settlements on occupied land - despite promises to the US and international community that they will cease.

The real shame is that to oppose illegal oppression suddenly becomes support for terrorism or opposing peace.

However, that is what the friends of Israel will have us believe is the truth.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:The only hope for peace is to not oppose the occupiers and they will hand back the land and freedoms?

Believe it or not, the vast majority of the Israeli population is willing to do this exactly as long as they can live in peace. And what freedoms are you talking about? The freedom for the Gazans delivered by Hamas by starting a civil war with their Palestinians brethern???

Peace negotiations can only really start when violence is stopped. Support for Hamas at this moment means you donot want peace and are as much or more responsible for the suffering of the Palestinian people as Israel. Lets not forget that Israel supports a Palestinian state and Hamas is not even recognizing Israel´s right to exist.

The Palestinians cause has my full support, but really supporting Hamas is wrong if you want peace.

Flying Dutchman wrote:Believe it or not, the vast majority of the Israeli population is willing to do this exactly as long as they can live in peace. And what freedoms are you talking about? The freedom for the Gazans delivered by Hamas by starting a civil war with their Palestinians brethern???

lol!

Flying Dutchman wrote:Peace negotiations can only really start when violence is stopped. Support for Hamas at this moment eans you donot want peace and are as much or more responsible for the suffering of the Palestinian people as Israel. Lets not forget that Israel supports a Palestinian state and Hamas is not even recognizing Israel´s right to exist.

The Palestinians cause has my full support, but really supporting Hamas is wrong if you want peace.

Right! Please do tell us what is best for the Palestinians living under occupations as they surely do not know what is best for them, it's not like they have rights to think and choose for themselves after all. No siree! Why should they have any rights? They're just hostages in their own land, not a big deal. I mean, many don't even recognize Israel's right to exist, bad bad! Not recognizing the "belief" that God wants Jews to have their own state *cough* no matter who they trample in the process is horrible! It's people like you who surely know what's best for...peace....and for the Palestinians...of course!

Flying Dutchman...more like Arrogant/Naive Dutchman....

Flying Dutchman - it appears that we both have the same objective.

I think the firing of rockets is counterproductive and gives Israel an excuse for it's 'pinpoint killings' - which kill tens of times more Palestinians than are hurt by Qassams.

However, the blanket condemnation of Hamas (and similar treatment of Hizbollah) as the +instigators+ of the violence is unfair in my opinion.

During the intifada, a similar campaign was made against the stone throwers 'provoking' the soldiers and giving them no option but to shoot down one or two of them. Some people did see it this way, others saw it differently.

Opposing Israels heavy handed tactics is not a support for Hamas - and natural justice is that the stronger party takes the first step. There will always be minorities who do not want peace, but I agree with you that the majority on all sides want peace.

Northern Ireland is a good example - negotiations took place whilst violence continued. Ceasefires were adhered to by the British and main parties, despite a tail end of terrorist bombings.

Hamas have offered a ceasefire - Israel has refused to agree to this. For this, yes, I condemn Israel. Grab the olive branch when it is offered, there will always be another day for killing if needed - the guns aren't going anywhere.

All that said, reading up on previous peace initiatives and the reaction of Israel to them shows a cynical disregard for a path that will lead to peace. It is not in the interest of the Israeli elite to have peace - and hence Israelis and many more Palestinians suffer. The Palestinians are not blameless in this - many are willing to play right into the hands of the hawks and strike back - I unreservedly condemn any terrorist act whether carried out with a suicide belt or an apache attack helicopter.

However, when the Gazans do attack military targets - eg capturing of the soldier last year after the incident of the family being blown up on the beach - Israel acts like a petulant teenager and invades. It shows less regard for attacks against civilians than attacks against soliders (and it appears to me to be legitimate to capture soldiers when Israel is holding thousands without trial).

Anyway, my opinions won't change anything on the ground - so I continue to pray for all involved and hope justice descends sometime soon.

Cheers,
Shafique

You know what would make world headlines and attention: What if everyone in Gaza dressed alike - like concentration camp victims. Surely that would be a "powerful" message and they would need to do nothing. Just peacefuly gather by the borders/gates...for the world to see.

After all even on this thread the worrd "concentration camp" has been used.

A bit "radical" but...

Good Idea Concord - but scenes of people queuing up for food relief still gets spun as 'propaganda' by Fox News and their ilk (if they show it at all).

And can you imagine being on rations and being asked to dress up for a photo-opportunity in the hope that the world finally takes more notice of a 60 year old problem?

Am I too cynical?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Good Idea Concord - but scenes of people queuing up for food relief still gets spun as 'propaganda' by Fox News and their ilk (if they show it at all).

And can you imagine being on rations and being asked to dress up for a photo-opportunity in the hope that the world finally takes more notice of a 60 year old problem?

Am I too cynical?

Cheers,
Shafique

No I mean not just a "photo op" but for as long as it takes...

Initially it might be viewed as propaganda but...

It would be interesting - the tragedy is that it appears that the irony of a Jewish army setting up a concentration camp is lost on most of the world.

I'm still sceptical - publicity hasn't helped the people of Darfur, and they don't even have the option of dressing up!

Cheers,
Shafique

MaaaD wrote:

gezza wrote:so can anyone tell me the full story here?

or you completely oblivious to the whole Palestinian-Israeli conflict all together ?

YES

freza wrote:lol!

Very happy that I can make you smile man
Also makes me feel good!

^ Flying...

Please refer to Dr. D's post: Dubai Training Sessions for Forumers as you seem to be having trouble with the quoting function (amongst other things..)
http://dubaiforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=24815&start=0

Ai ai ai...thanks for pointing that out...big mistake from my side!

ok during the 2nd world war when hitler started to target the jews. the british mandate were looking after Palestine. The british for some reason started to ship the jews to Palestine. Population of the jews by then was LOW compared to the population of the Arabs in palestine. As the war went by more and more jews started shifting into Palestine and their population grew so much that there were more jews then the arabs in Palestine. As the population grew the jews took over certain terrotories. And as we know now they control MOST of it. When 50 odd years ago they were just a community who were being targetted by Hitler in Germany and moved to Palestine, the home to the ARABS who had been there for decades and so on.

Funny thing is in those years most of the Arabia were control by the British or the French and some countries got liberated like Saudi and so on. The british Mendate were under pressure to let the Palestine have their own state but they decide to give the power to the jews. And ever since the Palestinians have been fighting about this. Thats the story.

Solution lol forget about palestine because the Jewish State has been established by the Brits and the USA. Because of unjustice and double standards shown by the British Mendate groups like Al Qaeda and ppl like Osama Bin Ladin have become the fighting voice of the ppl.

there is no solution to the palestine problem. This is an OLd problem dating as far as the Crusades and till now they have been fighting. It would have been easier if the British Mandate after the WW2 gave the palestinians their own country, just like they were liberating other countries across Arabia at that time. But i guess the British Mandate didnt like the thoughts of some muslims running the Holy Land so they found the next alternative which happened to be the jews.

Its easy to point fingers at others, saying they fired a rocket at us or they fired first. but it takes GUTS to admit that it was your fault. I dont know if Hamas and that other group ever fought before but I do know that they are fighting now because both of them represent sunis and shias. And as we know just like in Iraq and afghanistan Muslims are killing each other but thats because the enemy knows that only fractions within Islam can destroy Islam. Israel and USA know this and the results are in front of your eyes. So its really us Muslims fault instead of joining forces we have started fighting against each other started killing each other while the enemy sits and laugh.

rudeboy wrote: The british for some reason started to ship the jews to Palestine.

Britain never shipped jews to Palestine. During WW II Britain even closed Palestine for jewish immigration.

rudeboy wrote:When 50 odd years ago they were just a community who were being targetted by Hitler in Germany

Jews did not only come from Germany, but from all over Europe.

rudeboy wrote:This is an OLd problem dating as far as the Crusades

The Palestinian problem started with the crusades? Please tell me more!!!

rudeboy wrote: It would have been easier if the British Mandate after the WW2 gave the palestinians their own country

The UN did. It created a jewish and Arab Palestinian state. After the 1948 war Palestine was sliced up between the jews, Egypt and Transjordan.