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Well its nothing compared to the growth of Atheism - and thats only counting the ones who are brave enough to have come out. Millions of others are atheists, but fear making it known because religion (which we hear is peaceful all the time) tends not to look at apostates to well.

And when I say Atheism - I don't mean hardcore atheists like Dawkins etc, but people who have realized that that a personal god is an antiquated idea from the past and scripture is proving harder and harder to support and align with our current awareness of the universe and its awe inspiring complexity.

So I welcome all brothers and sisters to the truth which holds up to reasoning and provides a progressive path in to the future

The future looks exciting without the chains of the past.

Ya Atheism is going to do something which religion hasnt done for years. It is going to generate civilised nations and civilised human beings which religion has not produced in thousands of years. Isnt it.

Well lets look at ur socities now when there is no God. Almost all of them are atheists. How civilised nd peacefull socities u have. isnt it. dont u feel ashamed by looking at ur youngsters having "Fun" arround in ur socities. even in cities like london and new york u cant walk on the roads at night. fear is all arround. I tell u what. a time will come when ur fathers will be havin 6ex with their daughters and sons with mothers, brothers with sisters and togather they r having fun with animals already.

It is because of this religion that ur mind is concious about these humanly values. but its a shame that these religions got these priests and mullahs who behave like the owners of these religions and have produced these stupids like this gentleman who is feeling so proud to see these people converting to his faith.

George carlin is rite when he says that most of these people still beasts like inside. how many people u see in muslim world who really understand this faith. how many people u have in ur countries who understood christianity. Even look at judaism, r they even humas.

It is religion who has given u values which make ur world beautiful. dont u feel a sensatin when u meet nice people from any faith, any color any race any nationality with these values.

So sir please stop converting these people and improve the quality of ur islamic socities first and jabba dont preach this and dont take these people back to those dark ages where they once belonged.

shahrez wrote: Even look at judaism, r they even humas.

Are you asking here whether jews are humans???

shahrez - you are watching to much television.

You keep banging on about mothers having 6ex with sons and fathers doing their daughters in the western basin of filth, but tell me have you ever been to London or NY or any of the places in which you are an expert in Sexual Conduct and Depravity. In fact have you even seen what goes on in your own city. I suspect you are watching to much pr0n mate as the external perspective normally reflects the internal.

I myself have yet to meet anyone in my home town who is shagging there daughter or there pet poodle - I am sure there are some, as it does happen - whether it be New York, Riyadh or Basingstoke - people are the same.

Also you are using London and NY as representations of an Atheist community - they are far from it - and the respective consensus of each country shows this.

Anyway I back track on what I say - I would not want to convert anyone, I would rather people explored their own journey and found their own truth. But the reality is that all over the world Children are indoctrinated from birth and I don't think to far to say are scorned if they question the nonsense their innocent ears here.

But if someone believes something and does not enforce that on anyone else - please go ahead. For instance I don't really believe in Ralian doctrine, I think they are a little crazy to think they are from another planet and ufo's will come back to rescue them one day. But they don't bother me with their beliefs - even though the belief system sits on the same un-proved ground as the three main Abrahamic religions.

P.s - You mention George Carlin, he agrees;

Flying Dutchman wrote:

shahrez wrote: Even look at judaism, r they even humas.

Are you asking here whether jews are humans???

snakes...

Hi friend!

hifriend223 wrote:Why do they choose Islam ? Islam , in spite of the shaky and precarious picture that the blind –hearted media propagates all over the world , is most acceptable religion all over the world now.

I'm not sure that Islam is the most acceptable religion in the world. I think there are a million people who would say otherwise. But yes I agree - it still remains essentially unaffected by a very biased global media portrayal. I guess this is a testament to Islam...

hifriend223 wrote:In the time of the prophet , people were persecuted , tortured and even killed to leave it but never did they leave ....

Yes, that's very true. Although I don't think muslims have a monopoly on suffering for their faith. I think you only have to look at the early Christians, or Jews for that matter. Actually all faiths...

hifriend223 wrote:Islam is the only religion that answers the innate nature in the Human being .

Many people would agree. I guess others might say it was anti-human nature...!

hifriend223 wrote:Islam is the only religion that contains over one thousand scientific Hadiths and verses that are in complete agreement with the recently discovered scientific facts .

Yeah, there are some very interesting verses. But not everything in Islam/the Qur'aan is scientific...how can it be?

hifriend223 wrote:The Holy Quran is the only Book that remained unchanged , every letter , every word , every sentence are the same as were first revealed to the prophet .

I think that's a fair comment. As a historical document, that works internally and externally - it has always been held in high regard...

hifriend223 wrote:There are hundreds of glad tidings and prophecies in the Holy Book that speak about the coming of Islam , Islam is the only religion that first puts Human rights and supervised putting them into effect long ago before the magna carta

You know, I agree that Islam was perhaps the first religion to really codify human rights and conduct - an amazing accomplishment. But again, I don't think you can say Islam had/has the monoply on protecting human rights per se...

hifriend223 wrote:Islam is the only religion that gave woman her rights .

Well, it definitely gave her some rights! But as to whether it took any away...

hifriend223 wrote:Islam is the only religion that was fought and still is ,yet it remained unshaken , and remained and will remain deap seated in the hearts of its adherents .

Again, all other religions have encountered persecution. It is not unique to Islam. It's unfortunate because sometimes when you hammer on and on about this, it can start to sound like a persecution 'syndrome...'
But I agree, Islam is not going anywhere, and why should it...!

Burton,

Thanks for your comments - very balanced view.

From my perspective, Islam is the first religion that claims to be the Universal and Final religion - it is the first religion to acknowledge the truth in other previous religions (not just Judaism and Christianity, but in saying that all peoples were sent Messengers of God - it acknowledges the truth of Krishna, Buddha, Confucious, Zoraster etc).

Therefore Islam does not have or claim the monopoly on truth or human rights etc - it claims to encompass the previous teachings which were either temporally or geographically bound (limited to a time or a people). It claims to be the pinacle of the evolution of religion for mankind.

I believe that religious codes varied with the social and physical evolution of man. At the time of Adam, rudimentary laws were required (eg - giving laws about social interaction and possessions at a time of hunter gatherers who don't have possessions would be meaningless)- at the time of Noah slightly more codification could be handled etc until socially man-kind had evolved to the extent where a universal religion could be revealed, practiced and preserved.

Socially and physiologically, I do not think mankind has changed in the past 1500 years - our mental capacities, our emotions - our 'humanness' is the same today as it was 1500 years ago. We have the same basic physical and spiritual needs - and as a code of how to live one's life, Islam has stood the test of time (that in itself is a prophecy made by the Quran that has been fulfilled).

I'd be happy to explore each of the different points you raise in separate points - as from my perspective I agree with the article in terms of the perfection of Islamic injunctions on property, equality of women etc.

Firstly I'd like to explore the statement that some people find Islam to be anti-human nature. If this is your view, or you want to discuss this - I'll start a new thread.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Burton,

Thanks for your comments - very balanced view.

From my perspective, Islam is the first religion that claims to be the Universal and Final religion - it is the first religion to acknowledge the truth in other previous religions (not just Judaism and Christianity, but in saying that all peoples were sent Messengers of God - it acknowledges the truth of Krishna, Buddha, Confucious, Zoraster etc).

Therefore Islam does not have or claim the monopoly on truth or human rights etc - it claims to encompass the previous teachings which were either temporally or geographically bound (limited to a time or a people). It claims to be the pinacle of the evolution of religion for mankind.

I believe that religious codes varied with the social and physical evolution of man. At the time of Adam, rudimentary laws were required (eg - giving laws about social interaction and possessions at a time of hunter gatherers who don't have possessions would be meaningless)- at the time of Noah slightly more codification could be handled etc until socially man-kind had evolved to the extent where a universal religion could be revealed, practiced and preserved.

Socially and physiologically, I do not think mankind has changed in the past 1500 years - our mental capacities, our emotions - our 'humanness' is the same today as it was 1500 years ago. We have the same basic physical and spiritual needs - and as a code of how to live one's life, Islam has stood the test of time (that in itself is a prophecy made by the Quran that has been fulfilled).

I'd be happy to explore each of the different points you raise in separate points - as from my perspective I agree with the article in terms of the perfection of Islamic injunctions on property, equality of women etc.

Firstly I'd like to explore the statement that some people find Islam to be anti-human nature. If this is your view, or you want to discuss this - I'll start a new thread.

Cheers,
Shafique

Hi Shafique

Yeah you are right about Islam being the first religion to acknowledge the truth/validity of other religions or, at the very least, parts of their message. Of course, muslims believe that those messages or teachings were - to different degrees - corrupted over time.

But still, I agree - Islam does actually acknowledge that they were essentially, in their own way, 'messages'. And yeah, that is/was definitely something to be lauded. You can't say the same for how Christianity and Judaism perceived Islam, from day one...

Yes, I think I also agree with you about the nature of revelation - it can only be applicable/appropriate to the time. It had to be befitting the context of the time. Actually that's one of the main parts I raise with friends in friendly 'discussions' - contextually speaking, what Islam did in the way of the human condition was astonishing...

However, (!) the only thing I would ask then is that once you open the door on the subject of context and whole nature of revelation...well, some might ask if the message needs to 'adapt' to the different context which we find ourselves in today...(of course I'm aware that the answer, for muslims, is very simple - no!)

Finally, regarding the 'human nature' bit (and without wanting to sound like I am pre-empting you), I do know what you are going to say! Muslims will argue that Islam is not oblivious/naive to human nature, but exactly the opposite - ie, it is precisely because it is aware of the essential human condition, that it has the laws, recommendations, guidelines etc that it does! Islam doesn't seek to cruelly wipe out human desire/longings or pretend that they don't exist. Instead, it presents a reasonable framework where they can be expressed/indulged in without causing harm...

But I think you know what I meant, Shafique! A Taoist, or a Zen Buddhist, might think otherwise...

Cheers

burton

jabbajabba wrote:Anyway I back track on what I say - I would not want to convert anyone, I would rather people explored their own journey and found their own truth. But the reality is that all over the world Children are indoctrinated from birth and I don't think to far to say are scorned if they question the nonsense their innocent ears here.

But if someone believes something and does not enforce that on anyone else - please go ahead.

Excellent views... I share the same.

To add to the topic..

I think life, society and needs of humanbeings are all go through an evolutionary path..

I disagree to that point made by Shafiq that our needs havent changed for the last 1500 years. This could depend on where we look at it from. For that reason, I respect all religions and I believe all were created to meet regional needs... and all religions were part of the evolution, some continue to evolve.

I think it is imperative for a humanbeings' faith system to move on as the society moves on or there would be different social systems, faiths, clashes and fights abt who's faith is better etc. Which we see on a daily basis.. I look at it this way.. its going back to the start of the spiral where another prophecy has to be written and told.

St.Lucifer wrote:
I disagree to that point made by Shafiq that our needs havent changed for the last 1500 years. This could depend on where we look at it from. For that reason, I respect all religions and I believe all were created to meet regional needs... and all religions were part of the evolution, some continue to evolve.

I think it is imperative for a humanbeings' faith system to move on as the society moves on or there would be different social systems, faiths, clashes and fights abt who's faith is better etc. Which we see on a daily basis.. I look at it this way.. its going back to the start of the spiral where another prophecy has to be written and told.

I'm glad we agree that religions have evolved over time - it shows that there is some intelligent being behind it all.

My opinion is that spiritually and physically, we have not evolved in the past 1500 years - a baby born 1500 years ago if born today will be identical to any other baby born in the same circumstance.

Whilst material comforts have changed, I would argue that our needs haven't.

Religion is in two parts - how we deal with our Creator and how we deal with our environment (people and other creations, including the earth). In both, I submit that the principles of Islam are still relevant today as they were 1500 years ago.

Burton - I understand where you are coming from. Islam contains enough flexibility to adapt to the current environment - and makes the claim that the message will continue to be relevant until the end of times. This is another message that isn't to be found in other religions - all others talk of another message/messenger yet to come. So all previous religions are temporally bound (according to their own teachings) whilst the most recent (Islam) claims it is the final religion.

However that finality does not mean (in my and many other muslim's opinions) that time should stop at the time of the Prophet - that we should all ride camels and eschew science etc. It certainly was not the view of the earliest Muslims who actually made advancing sciences a corner-stone of their religion.

Cheers,
Shafique

shahrez wrote:Ya Atheism is going to do something which religion hasnt done for years. It is going to generate civilised nations and civilised human beings which religion has not produced in thousands of years. Isnt it.

Well lets look at ur socities now when there is no God. Almost all of them are atheists. How civilised nd peacefull socities u have. isnt it. dont u feel ashamed by looking at ur youngsters having "Fun" arround in ur socities.

1) Iraq. Shiites. Sunnis. Bombs, bullets and hatred. Is your point still valid, moron? We won't even get on to the mess of Africa and beyond. Sorry, how ignorant of me, "it's America's fault".

2) Hundreds of millions killed over the ages in the name of religion, several hundred million more than harmed in the name of "you know what, this God lark is a load of b****cks"

3) You live in a cave, go to any bar in the UAE and see how many Arabs are living in the "sin" of the West. Honestly, I dare you, it's hilarious watching men in dishdashes chatting up the prostitutes.

scot1870 wrote:

shahrez wrote:Ya Atheism is going to do something which religion hasnt done for years. It is going to generate civilised nations and civilised human beings which religion has not produced in thousands of years. Isnt it.

Well lets look at ur socities now when there is no God. Almost all of them are atheists. How civilised nd peacefull socities u have. isnt it. dont u feel ashamed by looking at ur youngsters having "Fun" arround in ur socities.

1) Iraq. Shiites. Sunnis. Bombs, bullets and hatred. Is your point still valid, moron? We won't even get on to the mess of Africa and beyond. Sorry, how ignorant of me, "it's America's fault".

2) Hundreds of millions killed over the ages in the name of religion, several hundred million more than harmed in the name of "you know what, this God lark is a load of b****cks"

3) You live in a cave, go to any bar in the UAE and see how many Arabs are living in the "sin" of the West. Honestly, I dare you, it's hilarious watching men in dishdashes chatting up the prostitutes.

1) lol well we all know who is creating the hatred between the shias and the sunnis dont we scot .

2) lol wont go down ur level mate

3) we all aint perfect example u and shahrez by the way u want to fly to germany or even to England where the pheodophiles live hmmm.

We all are not perfect there are problems in all religions in all societies in all communities and it doesnt help when ppl like u and shahrez judge each other. Its easy to point at someone but its really hard to take the blame .

rudeboy wrote:1) Iraq. Shiites. Sunnis. Bombs, bullets and hatred. Is your point still valid, moron? We won't even get on to the mess of Africa and beyond. Sorry, how ignorant of me, "it's America's fault".

1) lol well we all know who is creating the hatred between the shias and the sunnis dont we scot .
[/quote]

Just to be clear. lol = "laugh out loud". Islamic cultures have been fighting each other for centuries, the Iraq war did not set each culture against each other suddenly, rather it only gave the opportunity for mass deaths to be hidden under some excuse of "American blah de blah de blah" when American influence had nothing to do with what went on centuries ago.

rudeboy wrote:

scot1870 wrote:

shahrez wrote:Ya Atheism is going to do something which religion hasnt done for years. It is going to generate civilised nations and civilised human beings which religion has not produced in thousands of years. Isnt it.

We all are not perfect there are problems in all religions in all societies in all communities and it doesnt help when ppl like u and shahrez judge each other. Its easy to point at someone but its really hard to take the blame .

"WE" are judging??? Look at your ignorant statement firdt. Tell me how many people have died in the name of Islam and then tell me how many have died in the name of Atheism. I suspect your argument will fall apart at that point.

Angry Guy, can you kindly direct me to the Atheist Forum that you hang out at? I would love to visit and leave angry posts whenever I'm feeling frustrated in my personal life, you know take out my frustrations on atheists, kinda like what some of you do here towards religion!

then again, nah, I'm not interested in atheism so why even hang out at a place that discusses things that I don't care for? wouldn't make much sense...right?

scot1870 wrote:

rudeboy wrote:1) Iraq. Shiites. Sunnis. Bombs, bullets and hatred. Is your point still valid, moron? We won't even get on to the mess of Africa and beyond. Sorry, how ignorant of me, "it's America's fault".

1) lol well we all know who is creating the hatred between the shias and the sunnis dont we scot .

Just to be clear. lol = "laugh out loud". Islamic cultures have been fighting each other for centuries, the Iraq war did not set each culture against each other suddenly, rather it only gave the opportunity for mass deaths to be hidden under some excuse of "American blah de blah de blah" when American influence had nothing to do with what went on centuries ago.

rudeboy wrote:

scot1870 wrote:

shahrez wrote:Ya Atheism is going to do something which religion hasnt done for years. It is going to generate civilised nations and civilised human beings which religion has not produced in thousands of years. Isnt it.

We all are not perfect there are problems in all religions in all societies in all communities and it doesnt help when ppl like u and shahrez judge each other. Its easy to point at someone but its really hard to take the blame .

"WE" are judging??? Look at your ignorant statement firdt. Tell me how many people have died in the name of Islam and then tell me how many have died in the name of Atheism. I suspect your argument will fall apart at that point.

lol thank u for your clarification but we all know what lol means . scot you want to tell me what went on centuries ago?? and y are you going to the old golden times? if u want to look at the history and tell me something. y dont the jews look at their history and learn something from the concentration camps? Y are u going back to CENTURIES? y not look at the modern history. example. In Iraq there were no shias or sunis conflicts its only lately that such conflicts have been happening. Y? I ll tell you y. USA and the western world know that there are conflicts within Islam and they are trying to use these conflicts to get rid of Islam.

Another example of shia vs suni is Afghanistan. I will give u another example too Iraq vs Iran war. USA supported Sadam during that war. Y? hmmm maybe u can tell me scot. It was ok for Sadam to attack Iran but it wasnt ok according to USA to attack Kuwait?? lol (laughing out loud) talk about DOUBLE STANDARDS

By the way that AROGANT statement was from Shahrez mate learn how to quote first lol. Like I said there are black sheeps in all religions in all forms of communities example shahrez and u .

I cannt tell u how many ppl have died in the name of Islam but I am guessing alot. Do you know the reasons y they have died in the name of Islam? If u dont let me know i ll tell u otherwise I suggest u sit on google and get some info about Islam, and what it means to a few billion ppl in the world. Oh yeh it really helps if u dont watch CNN or some western media potraying every muslim as Osama, Sadam or Britneys BF. .

You want to tell me how many ppl died during the Crusades in the name of Christianty?? When knights from across europe would join up, fight under one banner and one religion against the evil "muslims"? Can u tell me?

Like I said its all politics on how to end Islam.