Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai General Chat

DP

Yeats wrote:
well a counter argument can be that ur wife, girlfriend, mistress or/and daughter should dress up more conservatively next time they go out. u live in a conservative society in case u didnt know.

ofcourse theyr gonna react the way they react because it is foreign to them and it sends them a lot of mixed signals. their only interaction with white naked women are thru movies and magazines.

but then again i find ur metaphor quite a racist one. i think wetsren men are the real jackasses jackals. because if we take for granted men's testosteronic aggression anywhere in the word, by proportionate misbehavior, wetsren men will top the categories of rape crimes, criminalities, dometic violence...etc?

It doesn't matter what dress you wear, men here still stare. I dont know how much more conservative one can get when covered head to toe.... Also, that is a horrible generalization people (arabs + arab men especially) make. If a female is being hassled by a male she didnt necessarily ask for it, or draw any attention to herself to get it. It is so easy to catch a mans eye here....like others said, it could be due to that pent up se-xual frustrations..


I'm also quite interested in seeing you statistics proving that western men are what you say they are.

gtmash wrote:Where is this pool in which random groups of men can freely enter? I'd like to go there.

Wild Wadi. And where did anyone mention anything about it being free?

The only thing I could find that is coming remotely close is based on UN statistics:

http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita&b_map=1
Mind you, these only include reported rapes and donot provide figures based on ethnicity.
Although one can have an unendless discussion about the worth of the statistics, western countries seem to score high...
No statistics about UAE though...

Flying Dutchman wrote:Although one can have an unendless discussion about the worth of the statistics, western countries seem to score high...
No statistics about UAE though...

That's one of the main problem, since subjects such as rapes, domestic abuse and sexual harassment are social taboo in any male dominated society . Women are reluctant if not afraid to report such things out of shame and embarrassment (even death).

OOPS...damn thats a DP

And don't forget that in the West men and woman are allowed to mix freely and they also consume alcohol. It has been well established that rape is a violent crime about domination and aggression, not necessarily about s.e.x.u.a.l gratification.

Basically, the fact that women are physically weaker is why some men attack. Just being a woman is all it takes sometimes, no matter what you wear and what you do. Men are the root of the problem

Medvezhonok wrote:

gtmash wrote:Where is this pool in which random groups of men can freely enter? I'd like to go there.

Wild Wadi. And where did anyone mention anything about it being free?

When did I talk about Wild Wadi? I am talking about the swimming pool mentioned in earlier posts in this thread.

kanelli wrote:And don't forget that in the West men and woman are allowed to mix freely and they also consume alcohol. It has been well established that rape is a violent crime about domination and aggression, not necessarily about s.e.x.u.a.l gratification.

Basically, the fact that women are physically weaker is why some men attack. Just being a woman is all it takes sometimes, no matter what you wear and what you do. Men are the root of the problem

K: You could claim that men are the root of the problem, however we have no control over that, its genetically built in and we have supressed it over the millenia as the human race evolves. The cavemen we used to be would simply bop their women over the head and then drag them home by the hair. This possibly still works in some societies, but I would like to think we are a little more civilised (none of my friends included!)

The situation here in Dubai is exacerbated by the imbalance between the male and female populations. Yes, there are literally millions of guys locked up in all male environments who, when they are let out, have nothing better to do than walk the streets as their salary level is so low. A pretty girl passing by is bound to attract attention from a group or an individual in this instance. Its magnified here by the social situation and means that ANY female is therefore an object of interest.

In the 'west' the genders mingle from an early age, whereas here the majority of ethnic groups here are segregated to varying degrees from an early age. Putting a large number of males together in a closed environment such as this, combined with an Alpha/Beta genotype...is a time bomb waiting to explode.

Add to this the tendency of some ladies here to forget they are in an Islamic environment and dressing either provocatively or inappropriately and its merely speeding up the ticking clock on the bomb.

The incidence of rape here is considerably lower than many places (per capita of population) and there is enormous degree of restraint taught by the Muslim faith. I wish it were the case with all religions, but it is not.

We may be to blame, but there is provocation...from time to time.



Knight

Dubai Knight wrote:
The incidence of rape here is considerably lower than many places (per capita of population)

Maybe because its a social taboo here and most of them if not all went un-reported. It will be a big blot to their family honor if a rape case is reported as the case they tend to keep silent on this. Statistics are ignored or not even up-dated, especially here.

Dubai Knight wrote:and there is enormous degree of restraint taught by the Muslim faith. I wish it were the case with all religions, but it is not.
Knight

All faith teaches respect towards their fellow men....its really about a person's respect towards others.....

Dubai Knight wrote:

kanelli wrote:And don't forget that in the West men and woman are allowed to mix freely and they also consume alcohol. It has been well established that rape is a violent crime about domination and aggression, not necessarily about s.e.x.u.a.l gratification.

Basically, the fact that women are physically weaker is why some men attack. Just being a woman is all it takes sometimes, no matter what you wear and what you do. Men are the root of the problem

K: You could claim that men are the root of the problem, however we have no control over that, its genetically built in and we have supressed it over the millenia as the human race evolves. The cavemen we used to be would simply bop their women over the head and then drag them home by the hair. This possibly still works in some societies, but I would like to think we are a little more civilised (none of my friends included!)

The situation here in Dubai is exacerbated by the imbalance between the male and female populations. Yes, there are literally millions of guys locked up in all male environments who, when they are let out, have nothing better to do than walk the streets as their salary level is so low. A pretty girl passing by is bound to attract attention from a group or an individual in this instance. Its magnified here by the social situation and means that ANY female is therefore an object of interest.

In the 'west' the genders mingle from an early age, whereas here the majority of ethnic groups here are segregated to varying degrees from an early age. Putting a large number of males together in a closed environment such as this, combined with an Alpha/Beta genotype...is a time bomb waiting to explode.

Add to this the tendency of some ladies here to forget they are in an Islamic environment and dressing either provocatively or inappropriately and its merely speeding up the ticking clock on the bomb.

The incidence of rape here is considerably lower than many places (per capita of population) and there is enormous degree of restraint taught by the Muslim faith. I wish it were the case with all religions, but it is not.

We may be to blame, but there is provocation...from time to time.



Knight

You are absolutely correct.

gtmash wrote:

Medvezhonok wrote:

gtmash wrote:Where is this pool in which random groups of men can freely enter? I'd like to go there.

Wild Wadi. And where did anyone mention anything about it being free?

When did I talk about Wild Wadi? I am talking about the swimming pool mentioned in earlier posts in this thread.

Yes, that swimming pool mentioned in the first post to is the one in Wild Wadi. I would know since I wrote it.

Reviewer made excellent points. Respect and restraint are taught in all religions, not just Islam. These are also taught in non-religious families as well. Somehow, despite this teaching, there are some men who choose to exert their will over their fellow female human beings.

The rape stats don't take into consideration all the factors, and rapes are definitely under-reported in many countries. I cringe at the thought of what happens in some countries where it is a taboo to talk about these things. There is certainly some molestation and rape going on because they know they can get away with it. Years ago I saw one documentary about a brother who raped his sister. The father and brother sawed her head off in an "honour killing". Apparently she didn't fight hard enough to fend her brother off and therefore welcomed his s.e.x.ual advances (what logic!). Her little sister had to step over her decapitated body in the morning. I can't remember where this was - think it was either Jordan or Syria.

I have to admit that I worry about the future when I see current popular culture fixating on s.e.x so much, and encouraging the s.e.x.u.a.lization of younger and younger people. I don't really think it contributes to more rapes, but it definitely brings the focus on objectifying male and female bodies - only surface and superficial features of a human. There is a heck of a lot more that is important, like brains and contribution to society.

I agree with the posters that people are becomng sex.ually aware at younger and younger ages these days due to the media and society and whatnot.

As far as the problem of inappropriate behaviour goes, it is like many of you pointed out, excrabated because of the gender bias against women in this part of the world. Somehow, with everything else factored in, men see nothing wrong with subjecting women to unwanted sexual advances. This is not the case in societies that implament more equality of the genders as part of their social strata.

If you don't want people to look then why are you showing

debian wrote:If you don't want people to look then why are you showing

Either you're cynical or what......

Dubaidude007 wrote:
As far as the problem of inappropriate behaviour goes, it is like many of you pointed out, excrabated because of the gender bias against women in this part of the world. Somehow, with everything else factored in, men see nothing wrong with subjecting women to unwanted sexual advances. This is not the case in societies that implament more equality of the genders as part of their social strata.

Yes, there's a real correlation between society and how it treats its people male and female. When society itself looks upon their womenfolk with low regards and treated unfairly,to the point of being bias in every sense of the word; women are easy prey to abuse of all sort whether at home, work and with in the society. Not suprisingly this societies do tend to hide this treatment by regarding this things as social taboos, a double joepardy for their womenfolk.

reviewer wrote:
Yes, there's a real correlation between society and how it treats its people male and female. When society itself looks upon their womenfolk with low regards and treated unfairly,to the point of being bias in every sense of the word; women are easy prey to abuse of all sort whether at home, work and with in the society. Not suprisingly this societies do tend to hide this treatment by regarding this things as social taboos, a double joepardy for their womenfolk.

Dark Knight and Kanelli have put their fingers on the issue and I could not do better.

I do also agree with 'reviewer' that societies who treat women with little respect are more prone to abuse - but I suspect he was viewing 'liberal' societies of Europe and US as societies which afford women more respect than 'conservative' societies of the East.

I would say that Kanelli's worry about the trend of increasing s.e.xualisation in the 'liberal' countries is a testament to the low regard women are regarded - to be viewed as an object that can be used to sell cars or as an object whose objective is to provide pleasure to on-lookers is not treating women with respect.

It is a common misconception from non-Muslims and non-Occidentals [Edit - I really meant non-Oriental] that women are oppressed when there is segregation by gender and modest dress codes. At the extremes, perhaps, but by and large it is a reflection of the respect and honour that is given to the other gender and the protectiveness that society feels stable nuclear families deserve - celebrating the male and female forms within a loving marriage and not on the street or in casual relationships.

Just a different perspective I thought I'd share.

Cheers,
Shafique

Nicely put Shaf...

Interestingly, Dubai Municipality have instigated a team tasked with visiting all the malls in Dubai and removing any images or window decoration that is deemed to be outside the moral and cultural mores of the UAE.

In the mall by my office, there are some highly provocative images in poster form on the walls advertising a lingerie shop in the centre. The window display in that store not only shows the actual product on a mannequin, but has large images of a very s.e.x.y girl, obviously provided by the manufacturer in the US.

Don't get me wrong, I am not averse to looking at a beautiful scantily clad girl and this might be acceptable in London or Paris, however I do feel it goes against the grain here in a Muslim environment. I expect these images to be removed in the very near future.



Knight

I guess it could be viewed as a lack of respect, but the women themselves are happy party to it - buying up the skimpy clothes and falling into the images in the media. Of course a woman feels good if she is desired. My personal opinion is that I only want my husband to desire me. Many other women get an ego boost from attracting other men. It is their personal choice, but in my view having one's own husband's attention is most rewarding. Who cares about Joe Shmoe on the street.

I have to say that I perceive that I am always respected (in North America and Europe), although I don't wear skimpy clothes, and would miss a mixed-gender environment. I wouldn't do well being kept away with only fellow women-folk, not after making friends with men and enjoying the differences men bring to a friendship.

Vive la difference!



Knight

Dubai Knight wrote:Nicely put Shaf...

Interestingly, Dubai Municipality have instigated a team tasked with visiting all the malls in Dubai and removing any images or window decoration that is deemed to be outside the moral and cultural mores of the UAE.

In the mall by my office, there are some highly provocative images in poster form on the walls advertising a lingerie shop in the centre. The window display in that store not only shows the actual product on a mannequin, but has large images of a very s.e.x.y girl, obviously provided by the manufacturer in the US.

Don't get me wrong, I am not averse to looking at a beautiful scantily clad girl and this might be acceptable in London or Paris, however I do feel it goes against the grain here in a Muslim environment. I expect these images to be removed in the very near future.



Knight

The funny part is the Dubai Motorshow was a great display of real-life skin. I was a bit "offended" by all the displayed women in a Muslim country, even though some would consider me a liberal.

My 11 year old daughter was in the school Christmas concert which featured a medley of song, music and dance.

The seniors in her school did a number of dance routines and in one girls who looked around 13 to 15 (clearly not yet women, but post-puberty) were dressed in red silk pyjama bottoms and clingy white vests or t-shirts. They danced to 'all I want for Christmas is you' and kept striking s.e.xy poses.

I took my in-laws with me and it just was cringeingly embarrassing for us - but the majority of other parents were clapping and enjoying the show. My in-laws (from Mauritius) were complimentary of the over-all production - but they did express surprise to see the show of flesh on display in the UAE (and to be honest I would have been surprised to see this in a school in the UK).

Alas, it is a sign of the times.

Cheers,
Shafique

We can all try to understand each other´s cultures and backgrounds, which is great! Still I believe there is a lot of hypocricy in Dubai going on concerning s.e.x. and women among other things. Just one example. A meet at WTC organized by locals was catered (and I mean only food and drinks) by scarcely dressed women (even according to westerns standards). Once outside they started complaining about how women dress on the street. This is just one example, I have many more...as everyone else here I am sure.
I have real problems trying to understand this sheer hypocricy. And I encounter this kind of hypocricy here in Dubai more than anywhere else in the world...

Flying Dutchman wrote:I have real problems trying to understand this sheer hypocricy. And I encounter this kind of hypocricy here in Dubai more than anywhere else in the world...

Hypocrisy is really rife here, their self-righteousness on one hand yet with open hands indulges in debauchery. Its smack of arrogance.

reviewer wrote:

Flying Dutchman wrote:I have real problems trying to understand this sheer hypocricy. And I encounter this kind of hypocricy here in Dubai more than anywhere else in the world...

Hypocrisy is really rife here, their self-righteousness on one hand yet with open hands indulges in debauchery. Its smack of arrogance.

Its not so much 'arrogance' as 'face'. Its very common in Saudi Arabia that a man must appear to be piously Islamic in all ways in front of his peers, however will then travel outside the Kingdom and behave in ways that would instigate a custodial prison sentence in his own country.

"What happens in Vegas...stays in Vegas."

This is also quite common for the young ladies of Saudi also and I am afraid that repression of the normal human desires and weaknesses is to blame. If you make certain things 'forbidden fruit' then the desire to taste from that tree becomes an irresistable urge.

Its like having a big red button on the wall that says in bold letters "Do not press!"

Someone will.
Just to see what happens.



Knight

Dubai Knight wrote:
Its not so much 'arrogance' as 'face'. Its very common in Saudi Arabia that a man must appear to be piously Islamic in all ways in front of his peers, however will then travel outside the Kingdom and behave in ways that would instigate a custodial prison sentence in his own country.

Well, I agree with you totally, their "holy than thou" attitude is outright arrogance for me.

Dubai Knight wrote:"What happens in Vegas...stays in Vegas."

This is also quite common for the young ladies of Saudi also and I am afraid that repression of the normal human desires and weaknesses is to blame. If you make certain things 'forbidden fruit' then the desire to taste from that tree becomes an irresistable urge.

Its like having a big red button on the wall that says in bold letters "Do not press!"

Someone will.
Just to see what happens.



Knight

Mind you its the society that tolerates such behavior and religion itself has nothing to do with it, yet always been hijacked by certain people for their own self preservation.

debian wrote:If you don't want people to look then why are you showing

Come on now, they look anyway, no matter what you wear. Hey, perhaps the men should have a bag or sheet draped over their heads all the time so that we women won't have to see them staring.

kanelli wrote:

debian wrote:If you don't want people to look then why are you showing

Come on now, they look anyway, no matter what you wear. Hey, perhaps the men should have a bag or sheet draped over their heads all the time so that we women won't have to see them staring.

Come on now - there is a world of difference between a nun in a habit and a lady in a mini skirt and boob tube, both would not be stared at.

And you ladies also know that hair style and make up can transform one's appearance and will radically change the attention one draws.

That said, I agree that dress is not the only factor - one can be all covered up and still draw attention - it is however an important factor in itself, all other things being equal, dressing modestly will draw less 'unwanted' attention.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:

kanelli wrote:

debian wrote:If you don't want people to look then why are you showing

Come on now, they look anyway, no matter what you wear. Hey, perhaps the men should have a bag or sheet draped over their heads all the time so that we women won't have to see them staring.

Come on now - there is a world of difference between a nun in a habit and a lady in a mini skirt and boob tube, both would not be stared at.

And you ladies also know that hair style and make up can transform one's appearance and will radically change the attention one draws.

That said, I agree that dress is not the only factor - one can be all covered up and still draw attention - it is however an important factor in itself, all other things being equal, dressing modestly will draw less 'unwanted' attention.

Cheers,
Shafique

Come on now dressing modestly will not surely draw less attention, take the case of men in segregated societies though their womenfolk are all covered up they still draw attention and men do stares as if the women wears nothing. As pointed out earlier, its sheer hypocrisy of the men to blame the opposite sex for their uncalled stares and sexual overtures.