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[quote=\\"jabbajabba\\"][quote=\\"Frederick\\"]

Scripture can and does justify terrorism when interpreted with terror in mind when it comes to the bible and the Koran.

Can you name a verse from the New Testament that condones violence?[/quote]

From Jesus himself.

\\"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.\\" (Matthew 10:34-39)[/quote]


The passage is a prophecy that to convert to Christianity can mean putting oneself at odds with ones own non-Christian family.

To interpret this text literally as a call to familial violence rather than as allegory is not only to misunderstand Jesus, but also the poetic nature of the New Testament. Even through history when Christians have committed violence in the name of God and the church, they have never taken this passage as marching orders.

jabbajabba wrote:Scripture can and does justify terrorism when interpreted with terror in mind when it comes to the bible and the Koran.

If you take buddhist scripture - which contains no violence its no wonder that there is no such thing as a Tibetan Buddhist suicide bomber?

After the occupation by china and brutal treatment handed out to Tibetans there should be a monk blowing himself up aboard a bus full of Chinese commuters every week.

You'd be surprised Jabbajabba - Tibettan monks have been known to go on the rampage and kill other monks, over disputes on Buddhist theology!

A few years back, the monks in exile with the Dalai Lama were embroiled in a controversy over a ruling by the Dalai Lama that a certain 'god' should no longer be worshipped any more. Some monks did (and still do) objected to this and there were murders (if I recall correctly) of monks by other monks. This took place in their compound in India and was reported widely at the time.

I'll see if I can look it up.

Cheers,
Shafique

Ok - found the reference, wasn't quite as gory as I remembered - three monks murdered in 1997:

http://www.cesnur.org/press/Newsweek.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorje_Shugden

But does make the point that Buddhism has it's extremists who kill innocents!

Sad fact that - but why should we be surprised, at the end of the day we are all human with the same qualities and frailties. (and that is what Islam teaches - humans share a common link and that the solution is one universal set of values)


You know I'm a great one for stats - I would hazard a guess and say there are fewer nutters as a percentage of practicing Muslims than in other religions (due to the fact of large numbers).

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique - I knew you would come along and right size me on this

Dorje Shudgen - there are some of Dorje Shudgen followers in the UK (NKT). Some believe working the deity is a quick and ruthless way to enlightenment, others see him as a Evil deity and his worship should be avoided.

Since then DL cast them out.

Another on the street debate;

jabbajabba wrote:shafique - I knew you would come along and right size me on this

As the song says 'there's good and bad in everyone'...

Cheers,
Shafique

rudeboy wrote:heheh being an athiest is an easy way out i guess but choco i am sure even you have some questions that confuse you. questions about god, life, earth, human beings and the war happening around us.

Read back on this forum, atheism is a harder choice than accepting organised religion as organised religion is rammed down your throat at an age when you are not able to question properly. Atheism doesn't pretend to have all the answers, but its answers often have a lot more science behind it than other theories

If Islam answers your questions, good luck to you. But please stop asking me to quote you text from the Qu'ran asking where it's OK to kill people. I repeat, it's other Muslims doing it, not me. If you can't reconcile yourself that some Muslims are evil scum (as per any other religion) then you're being blind and ignorant.

Oh and I see freza is back, new avatar, same crap.

scot1870 wrote:
Read back on this forum, atheism is a harder choice than accepting organised religion as organised religion is rammed down your throat at an age when you are not able to question properly. Atheism doesn't pretend to have all the answers, but its answers often have a lot more science behind it than other theories

I agree with you on this point Scot. I think it takes a lot more faith to be a concious Atheist than it does to be a Theist. I personally do not have enough faith to believe that there is isn't an intelligent being behind creation.

I also agree with you that there are Muslims committing crimes and saying/believing that Islam condones/requires these actions. In that, these muslims are no different from any other group of people who will justify their actions despite what their groups guiding principles actually say/mean.

I think people are confusing these facts with other assertions that extrapolate these facts to conclude that the underlying religions are therefore at fault. This is a separate argument that I have no hesitation in debating - as you know. To me, it's like saying we should ban cars because of all the traffic accidents on Sheikh Zayed Road!

[edit - I also have objected to the extrapolation that equates all fighting by Muslims as 'terrorism' or even as 'Islamic' when they are actually either civil strife or armed opposition to occupations etc]

cheers,
Shafique

scot1870 wrote:
If Islam answers your questions, good luck to you. But please stop asking me to quote you text from the Qu'ran asking where it's OK to kill people. I repeat, it's other Muslims doing it, not me. If you can't reconcile yourself that some Muslims are evil scum (as per any other religion) then you're being blind and ignorant.

Ok there is no religion in the world that says you should kill ppl. But you should only do this in defence.

Fredreick there are different forms of Jihad. Like Shaf said most of the muslims are fighting against an occupation and injustice shown towards muslims.

I agree with you there are some muslims who are doing bad things. But isnt the western government done enough. Havent they killed over 100,000 ppl from 1947 to 2007? from palestine to kosovo to chechynea, from Iraq to Afghanistan and to Kashmir.

they havent been directly involved in the killing of ppl apart from afghanistan and iraq. But they have supported governments such as Israel, India and even Russia where USA, UK, Nato or even UN didnt come to an aid of the muslims.

We can argue about this over and over again. But if USA uk dont change their foregin policies the war will continue ppl will kill each other and so on.

3500 ppl died on september 11 and the blame was put on the muslims and muslims leaders from across the world were "blackmailed" into joining USA against terroism. What did bushy say? Oh yeh "join us or be against us" lol.

3500 died on 9/11 and USA uk attacked Iraq and Afghanistan.
100,000 muslims have died from 1947 and on wards. Please tell me who should we attack?? If one of our non "corrupt" leaders stand up against USA and UK policy what happens to them? Their countries get taken over by USA forces example Sadam Hussain or sanctions are put up against others e.g Gaddafi Libya.

I only think that terroism is just a excuse, its a distraction for the whole wide world. While USA builds its tactical bases around the world. Bases in UK, France, Spain, Turkey to Iraq, Qatar, Bahrain, Afghanistan, Iraq the list goes on.

Y do they need these bases?

BECAUSE USA is the GUARDIAN of the WORLD

46 countries with no US military presence
156 countries with US troops
63 countries with US military bases and troops
7 countries with 13 new US military bases since 9 11.
In 2001, US had 255,065 troops abroad :S.

blaaady hell half of the world is conquered by USA already :S.

All the continents in the World have USA troops or bases apat from Africa. And we all know what is happening in Africa.

All the seas have usa ships in them :S.

Ex- Soviet States have USA bases and troops in it.

Y? Cant France protect itself? Cant Qatar and Bahrain protect it self from its enemies? Dont the Saudis have their own forces?

Sheesh you talk about Al Qaeda and Islamic Fundamentalist. Talk about USA Empire and Unilateralism

Its good that ppl in USA UK and across Europe are opening their eyes finally cos they see how USA is building their empire.

And when ppl do stand up against USA they are either killed or shut up or they face lots and lots of cricitism. I know i will so what slowly slowly am sure some eyes will open

A blast from the past - but easier to bump than to cut and paste.

FAO of eh.

Cheers,
Shafique

So are the PIRA seeking to establish a Catholic theocracy or justify their actions by quoting the teachings of Thomas Aquinas?

On the other hand, both Hamas and al-Qaeda do seek the restoration of an Islamic theocracy and justify their actions through the Koran, hadith and legal rulings of classical Muslim jurists - hence, they are 'Islamic' terrorist groups.