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It's not only about muslims, the west always create such labels as media propagandas.
North Korea was described as part of the so called Axis of Evil by Bush for acquiring a weapon which his country possesses and had actually used against the japanese

shafique wrote:You are avoiding the question I asked - were the French resistance fighters 'terrorists' or wrong for carrying out attacks against the German Reich and Vichy Government (and not being an army). Is it really that hard to say 'no'?

Much as I hate to support the French resistance, they did so in a time of war when they had no democratic government and army to support them. Lebanon, were it not for Hizbullah, would be a stable country with a government and army that represented the people. If you're blinded enough to argue that Hizbullah is right to bring bombing and war to the country (yes, I've been to Beirut and seen the damage, as you head south it's mind blowing) when they do not represent the majority of Lebanese then you're clearly deluded. You can fight for your country in more ways than military ways, as I say pre-9/11 the world outside America was putting pressure on Israel to concede so who knows what could happen by putting weapons down.

As for the clown talking about the "hypocrisy" of the US, well, they used the atomic bomb when they shouldn't have to end WWII. Once when the country was on its knees was barely justifiable, using it again inexcusable. But what you clearly don't understand is that nuclear capability has not been used in earnest since then, quite remarkable given the amount of wars going on. The world has no interest in a nuclear war clearly, so stopping the proliferation of such weapons, especially in countries run by dictators, is clearly a good thing for the world.

scot1870 wrote:The world has no interest in a nuclear war clearly, so stopping the proliferation of such weapons, especially in countries run by dictators, is clearly a good thing for the world.

Very well, let's disarm all countries then. As long as some are still producing and developing them others are perfectly justified in seeking nukes

Scott,

I'm afraid you are still missing the point I wanted to make - perhaps due to my poor choice of words.

To recap:
shafique wrote:

I do not see anything wrong, say, with Hizbullah capturing the Israeli soldiers in South Lebanon last year. They are legitimate military targets generally, and the fact that thousands of lebanese are being held captive without trial makes the legitimacy quite specific.

Scott:

Sorry, which government does Hizbullah represent? None? Ah, then it's not an army is it?

When I said ' do not see anything wrong' - it was in the context of whether Hizbullah was undertaking an act of terrorisim when attacking military targets. I take the view that these attacks are legitimate.

However, legitimate acts may not be sensible acts - or they may lead to consequences which are counter-productive.

Therefore, legitimacy (something being legal) does not, in my mind, equal something that is to be encouraged or condoned. This is actually a precept of Islam - whilst revenge for a wrong is legitimate, forgiveness where this does not harm others is encouraged.

On the case of Hizbollah, we seem to be arguing two different points - I am saying their attacks against the military are legitimate and not terrorist acts, and have drawn parallels with the French resistance. You appear to be arguing that Hizbollah's actions are not in Lebanon's interest.

For me, these are two different points - one is legitimacy, the other is consequences of actions.

Cheers,
Shafique

debian wrote:Very well, let's disarm all countries then. As long as some are still producing and developing them others are perfectly justified in seeking nukes

I agree disarm in principle, but the clear statment of nuclear capable countries it to use it as a deterrent. Apart from India, the nuclear countries of the world go back decades.

There is no reason for countries to develop nuclear capability (and I include India in that) now except for aggressive means, the countries that hold this capability would 99.9% never use the capability in war (did you see any nukes in Vietnam, Iraq, Falklands and the like?), whereas new countries like Iran and North Korea clearly have other agendas. I'm sure you'll argue that Iran's development of weapons is to protect it from Israel, but conversely Iran's nuclear ambitions make it more of a target rather than acting as a "deterrent". Last post against you, you're clearly a nutter who has not rationale beyond Islamist idealism.

Shafique, let's agree to disagree and be done with it.

Edit: Sorry, Pakistan as well as a nuclear nation.

scot1870 wrote:I agree disarm in principle, but the clear statment of nuclear capable countries it to use it as a deterrent. Apart from India, the nuclear countries of the world go back decades.

There is no reason for countries to develop nuclear capability (and I include India in that) now except for aggressive means, the countries that hold this capability would 99.9% never use the capability in war (did you see any nukes in Vietnam, Iraq, Falklands and the like?), whereas new countries like Iran and North Korea clearly have other agendas. I'm sure you'll argue that Iran's development of weapons is to protect it from Israel, but conversely Iran's nuclear ambitions make it more of a target rather than acting as a "deterrent". Last post against you, you're clearly a nutter who has not rationale beyond Islamist idealism.

Shafique, let's agree to disagree and be done with it.

Edit: Sorry, Pakistan as well as a nuclear nation.

Having such deterrent weapon gives the country a serious military advantage which will definitely drive others to gain as well, especially with the antagonizing foreign policies of these nuclear countries.

I won't argue about Iran, what agenda do you think north korea had ? it already made a bomb but it didn't strike any one, actually it's going to disarm in exchange for the aid and incentives

I am not for nuclear weapons, I am just discussing possible motives to seek them
"We will use it only for deterrence and you can't have it" is one of them

Islamist idealism forbids using such weapons, during war muslims are not only forbidden to kill civilians but even the plants and animals

scot1870 wrote:
Shafique, let's agree to disagree and be done with it.

Agreed!

Cheers,
shafique

What a bad msg .. I just hope that yours and those who read and listen to ideas like these, tolerance levels are intact. Coz these are the kind of thoughts that spark up the fundamentalists...weak minded, never seen/ heard /thought anything outside Islam ... Or such is my worry.. Dont see any point in this whole thread.

Frederick wrote:I'll respond to this thread in later, however I would like to ask
shafique to show me one example where the Tamil Tigers and the IRA ever used religion to influence their violence (do their members ever quote from holy books, do they claim that their fighting against the British occupation in the name of Jesus?) or how either of them are religious fundamentalist groups like AQ.

frederick what is the meaning of fundametalist?? i know what it means i m just asking you. i would like to know your meaning of fundamentalist.

debian wrote:I won't argue about Iran, what agenda do you think north korea had ? it already made a bomb but it didn't strike any one, actually it's going to disarm in exchange for the aid and incentives

North Korea had what was widely described as a "nuclear fart", not a nuclear bomb. When it realised it looked ridiculous, it backed down.

What you seem to miss is that the foreign policies of the NATO group never involve the use of nuclear force, that's the "deterrent" because if you do develop them then nuclear force comes in to play.

shaf I want to add something on.

There are loads of terroist groups in the world. The first ever guy was George Washington. Hehe I know someone will go what bullshit. But if you ask the british ppl at that time what they thought about George Washington they will tell you he was a terroist. Where as the americans thought he was a freedom fighter who was fighting the british government and forces for the occupation of his country. Later on the guy became the FIRST president of USA. Lol ironic isint it. So was he a terroist or a Freedom Fighter?


In India you have a Sikh Terroist group who want to have their own Country away from India. They have killed so many ppl including innocent and armed forces. The Indian government sees them as a terroist group where as the Western Media sees them as Freedom figthers. Why is this? Dont they have a beard? a turban? Yet they are not stereotyped why is this? Y does the western media mention about them in the NEWS?

In Chile General Pinochet has killed SOO many ppl. Tortured, kidnapped, illegal detention and press censorship. Yet when he came to England in 2000 he was arrested and released by Jack Straw without facing trial. Thats right JACK STRAW. He was relased on MEDICAL grounds. The guy was never tried by the International Crimes Tribunal for his crimes. And he died peacefully in 2006. Whats the difference between Pinochet and Sadam? Pinochet killed more ppl then Sadam, he had more money through drug trafficking and selling nerve gas to other countries. Sadam was caught and tried and HANGED. Pinochet was arrested then released but NEVER TRIED? Y hmm maybe because he wasnt a MUSLIM??? I am not a supporter of sadam but I think the western government and MEDIA has double standards.

In the South East you have the tamil terroist groups. Hell they are MORE viscious more violent then any other groups in the world. Yet they are not mentioned in the media? Y is this? Because they are not muslims right?

Irgun and other jewish "freedom fighthing" groups or Terroist groups have killed MANY ppl by bombings and shooting. They are not labelled as terroists y because they are not Islamic. They are fighting for a freedom, against an oppression and occupation of Israel by Arabs. Arabs who have been there for YEARS for centuries. the same arabs who welcomed the Jews to Israel. Thats right the same jews who were about to be extinct by Hitler today are doing the same in Palestine. But they are not seen as Jewish terroists? Y not? havent they killed thousands of ppl????

Yet when Osama wants to fight USA government against their occupation of his land, his home. he is labelled as a Islamic Terroist. lol

Stalin, lenin and hitler have killed MILLIONS of ppl by various means of way. They are not known as heros in the history books more as dictators. Yet when Bush Senior and Clinton decided to starve the children and women of Iraq by means of sanctions they werent labelled as terroists. and now when Bush who has killed thousands in Iraq and afghanistan and even in his own country, keeps on doing what he wants? Y isnt he labelled as a Terroist?? oh I 4got he aint a muslim is he??

The IRA were labelled terrorists. So were the UDA and UVF. And they fought against each other without so much as a Qu'ran in sight. Get over yourself.

In schools we learn that Stalin's genocides were worse than Hitler's.

We cover Tamil Tigers and other groups regularly in our newscasts (indeed, on a normal night over 50% of news is international, not the sycophantic rubbish you're spoonfed over here).

Osama is from Saudi Arabia, don't see him doing too much freedom fighting there...

I could go on, but it might burst your bubble. Here's a tip, take your savings, buy a one year, round the world ticket, leave the Qu'ran at home and GO AND ENJOY YOURSELF! The world is full of fun and adventure, contrary to your belief Muslims are actually accepted in pretty much every country in the world. A bit like Visa and Mastercard really.

scot1870 wrote:The IRA were labelled terrorists. So were the UDA and UVF. And they fought against each other without so much as a Qu'ran in sight. Get over yourself.

In schools we learn that Stalin's genocides were worse than Hitler's.

We cover Tamil Tigers and other groups regularly in our newscasts (indeed, on a normal night over 50% of news is international, not the sycophantic rubbish you're spoonfed over here).

Osama is from Saudi Arabia, don't see him doing too much freedom fighting there...

I could go on, but it might burst your bubble. Here's a tip, take your savings, buy a one year, round the world ticket, leave the Qu'ran at home and GO AND ENJOY YOURSELF! The world is full of fun and adventure, contrary to your belief Muslims are actually accepted in pretty much every country in the world. A bit like Visa and Mastercard really.

lol easy now scot you dont wanna loose your temper. come on scot control it buddy easy now lol.

Can you show it to me in the Quran where it says its ok for a Muslim to kill a non -believer? can you do that? show it to me where it says in the Quran thats its ok to kill a non-believe and i ll end it here.

I have given you the facts and the links to the websites. What have you given to support your argument???

scot1870 wrote:The IRA were labelled terrorists. So were the UDA and UVF. And they fought against each other without so much as a Qu'ran in sight. Get over yourself.

are the freedom fighters in Kashmir and in Palestine fighting with the Qu'ran in one hand?

Can you give me a verse from the Quran where it says its ok for a muslim to kill a non-muslim?

rudeboy wrote:Can you give me a verse from the Quran where it says its ok for a muslim to kill a non-muslim?

Why do you want an answer from me? If you could have a word with Osama next time you see him though...

scot1870 wrote:

rudeboy wrote:Can you give me a verse from the Quran where it says its ok for a muslim to kill a non-muslim?

Why do you want an answer from me? If you could have a word with Osama next time you see him though...

lol come on scot. I expected something BETTER THEN THAT. come on am sure u can find out something in the Quran where it says its ok to kill "infidels". you want me to help you out?

What are you gibbering about man? It's not me that's killing people! It's probably just Christians with boot polish on creating a bad name for you Muslims (I'll let you keep that conspiracy theory).

scot1870 wrote:What are you gibbering about man? It's not me that's killing people! It's probably just Christians with boot polish on creating a bad name for you Muslims (I'll let you keep that conspiracy theory).

lol its ok scot it happens yeh muslims and christians and jews and hindus are killing each other . I really dont think its ALL the christians. Just a few rotten apples in the christian society as well as a few rotten apples in the muslim society and a few rotten apples in the Jewish society who just want to destroy earth .

rudeboy wrote:lol its ok scot it happens yeh muslims and christians and jews and hindus are killing each other . I really dont think its ALL the christians. Just a few rotten apples in the christian society as well as a few rotten apples in the muslim society and a few rotten apples in the Jewish society who just want to destroy earth .

Christians are killing people, but not in the name of Christianity. Can the same be said for Muslims?

scot1870 wrote:

rudeboy wrote:lol its ok scot it happens yeh muslims and christians and jews and hindus are killing each other . I really dont think its ALL the christians. Just a few rotten apples in the christian society as well as a few rotten apples in the muslim society and a few rotten apples in the Jewish society who just want to destroy earth .

Christians are killing people, but not in the name of Christianity. Can the same be said for Muslims?

How do you know that they are killing in the name of ISLAM?? Do they say we are killing this infidel in the name of Islam cos it says so in the Quran? Can you give me a link to a website that shows a "terroist" group that says its ok to kill a infidel because it says so in Quran.

I have asked you before where does it say in the Quran that its ok for a muslim to kill a non muslim? Can you show it to me? Do you want me to help you?

scot1870 wrote:What you clearly miss is that pre-9/11 the world was building pressure on Israel as an oppressive state that used disproprionate force. The events of 9/11 made the world think again, whether rightly or wrongly.

I "clearly" missed what you clearly...didn't because of course, Israel was just about to give back all that land that it has stolen but then, bam 9-11 happaned, and of course they couldn't go back to their very sincere and believable plans to start being humane! oh shucks, Mohammad, how can you be so guillable, a grown man like you. Do you still believe in the tooth fairy too?

As for the Arab fixation that the world is run by Jews, get over it, so many people here verge on the dellusional on that point. Jewish people hold shares in companies, as do Arabs and Christians and folks from any walk of life. Being Jewish doesn't give them a magic extra power like many people seem to believe.

We were talking about semantics my dear Mohammad, don't confuse things. Is Israel not a Jewish state? Well then, what they do on a regular basis is terrorism, let's just call a spade a spade shall we? Jewish Terrorism. There!

freza wrote:

scot1870 wrote:What you clearly miss is that pre-9/11 the world was building pressure on Israel as an oppressive state that used disproprionate force. The events of 9/11 made the world think again, whether rightly or wrongly.

I "clearly" missed what you clearly...didn't because of course, Israel was just about to give back all that land that it has stolen but then, bam 9-11 happaned, and of course they couldn't go back to their very sincere and believable plans to start being humane! oh shucks, Mohammad, how can you be so guillable, a grown man like you. Do you still believe in the tooth fairy too?

As for the Arab fixation that the world is run by Jews, get over it, so many people here verge on the dellusional on that point. Jewish people hold shares in companies, as do Arabs and Christians and folks from any walk of life. Being Jewish doesn't give them a magic extra power like many people seem to believe.

We were talking about semantics my dear Mohammad, don't confuse things. Is Israel not a Jewish state? Well then, what they do on a regular basis is terrorism, let's just call a spade a spade shall we? Jewish Terrorism. There!

Isreal comes from the verb sarar (to rule, be strong, have authority over). so the name means "God rules" or "God judges". A bit of a Jewish FUNDAMENTALISM or should we say EXTREMISM for u .

Oh wow, threads like this only serve to reinforce my opinion, that the only good religion, is no religion at all. Then no-one can go about believing that they're better than others because of their religion or killing people in the name of it.

Have you ever seen an athiest kill another person, because of their belief? er no!

I rest my case.

Scripture can and does justify terrorism when interpreted with terror in mind when it comes to the bible and the Koran.

If you take buddhist scripture - which contains no violence its no wonder that there is no such thing as a Tibetan Buddhist suicide bomber?

After the occupation by china and brutal treatment handed out to Tibetans there should be a monk blowing himself up aboard a bus full of Chinese commuters every week.

Opps - in respect of equal ops I failed to mention the Torah as well.

Chocoholic wrote:Oh wow, threads like this only serve to reinforce my opinion, that the only good religion, is no religion at all. Then no-one can go about believing that they're better than others because of their religion or killing people in the name of it.

Have you ever seen an athiest kill another person, because of their belief? er no!

I rest my case.

I dont think anyone here is saying that Islam is better or christianity or hindusim is better. All i know is that Islam makes sense.

Ok I am not going to make fun of christianity or something. But christianity real confuses me even though am a muslim. And i am sure there are christians who probably feel the same way. The same could be said about Hinduism in which there are over 100 gods. God for light god for air sun etc. There is so much confusion in other religions. Is that why ppl are converting to islam because it is simple and answers all your questions???

And really which RELIGION in the world says you should kill each other? Islam doesnt I have asked ppl to find a verse from the quran which says that a muslim should kill an infidel at point blank range. Does it say that in the Bible? Does it say it in other forms of religions. NOOOO it doesnt.

Follow the religion that makes sense to you. That answers all you questions such as how was earth made and even WHO really designed the organ systems of human beings? how we eat something, how it travels down our throat, down various veins and into the stomache where the muscles digest it. How does it happen? who designed it this way? Y was it this way? we have eyes nose ears who gave us all this?? how come we all look different. some have blue eyes, green eyes, black eyes. some of us EVEN look similiar?? Y how did this happen??? lol Islam answers it all and its all there in the Quran from the explantion of the human body to whether aliens exists or not .

There are so many questions. And i can go on and on and on. the list is huge with so many questions. Most of them are answered in the Quran or even in Islam.

I ll give you an example about how simple Islam is. we muslims believe in one god and Muhammad was his last messenger. Yet there are different verions of Islam. Such as Suni, Shiasm, Sufism, Wabism and the list goes on. (more on this later on when someone starts a post about them .

But if you look at christianty. You believe in one God yet Christians also believe in the Christ as God as well . How can a human be a god? This is just an example that shows y other religions are complex and Islam is simple. Dont get me wrong i am sure there is a good explanation behind Christ as a god and as a human being. But you can see how even christians can get confused about their own religion.

i am not forcing anyone to change their religion. Believe in what you think is right.

By the way Choco have you seen a muslim kill a non-muslim cos of their beliefs or cos their religion said so???

heheh being an athiest is an easy way out i guess but choco i am sure even you have some questions that confuse you. questions about god, life, earth, human beings and the war happening around us.

Scripture can and does justify terrorism when interpreted with terror in mind when it comes to the bible and the Koran.

Can you name a verse from the New Testament that condones violence?

Islam doesnt I have asked ppl to find a verse from the quran which says that a muslim should kill an infidel at point blank range.

Rudeboy, you already provided some verses from the Quran that call for the killing of polytheists, so I did not feel that I had to.

Just for the record, you do know that 5:32 of the Quran only applies to Muslims, and your ahadith of inner jihad is considered weak by Muslim scholars, right?

Frederick wrote:

Scripture can and does justify terrorism when interpreted with terror in mind when it comes to the bible and the Koran.

Can you name a verse from the New Testament that condones violence?

From Jesus himself.

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew 10:34-39)

rudeboy wrote:

Chocoholic wrote:Oh wow, threads like this only serve to reinforce my opinion, that the only good religion, is no religion at all. Then no-one can go about believing that they're better than others because of their religion or killing people in the name of it.

Have you ever seen an athiest kill another person, because of their belief? er no!

I rest my case.

I dont think anyone here is saying that Islam is better or christianity or hindusim is better. All i know is that Islam makes sense.

Ok I am not going to make fun of christianity or something. But christianity real confuses me even though am a muslim. And i am sure there are christians who probably feel the same way. The same could be said about Hinduism in which there are over 100 gods. God for light god for air sun etc. There is so much confusion in other religions. Is that why ppl are converting to islam because it is simple and answers all your questions???

And really which RELIGION in the world says you should kill each other? Islam doesnt I have asked ppl to find a verse from the quran which says that a muslim should kill an infidel at point blank range. Does it say that in the Bible? Does it say it in other forms of religions. NOOOO it doesnt.

Follow the religion that makes sense to you. That answers all you questions such as how was earth made and even WHO really designed the organ systems of human beings? how we eat something, how it travels down our throat, down various veins and into the stomache where the muscles digest it. How does it happen? who designed it this way? Y was it this way? we have eyes nose ears who gave us all this?? how come we all look different. some have blue eyes, green eyes, black eyes. some of us EVEN look similiar?? Y how did this happen??? lol Islam answers it all and its all there in the Quran from the explantion of the human body to whether aliens exists or not .

There are so many questions. And i can go on and on and on. the list is huge with so many questions. Most of them are answered in the Quran or even in Islam.

I ll give you an example about how simple Islam is. we muslims believe in one god and Muhammad was his last messenger. Yet there are different verions of Islam. Such as Suni, Shiasm, Sufism, Wabism and the list goes on. (more on this later on when someone starts a post about them .

But if you look at christianty. You believe in one God yet Christians also believe in the Christ as God as well . How can a human be a god? This is just an example that shows y other religions are complex and Islam is simple. Dont get me wrong i am sure there is a good explanation behind Christ as a god and as a human being. But you can see how even christians can get confused about their own religion.

i am not forcing anyone to change their religion. Believe in what you think is right.

By the way Choco have you seen a muslim kill a non-muslim cos of their beliefs or cos their religion said so???

heheh being an athiest is an easy way out i guess but choco i am sure even you have some questions that confuse you. questions about god, life, earth, human beings and the war happening around us.

Rudeboy - just as you believe in less gods then the hindu's. I believe in just one less god then you - so we have something in common.

Well actually that is not true - as I am not a true atheist, I just don't believe in personal god obsessed with human affairs.

My belief is that if there was a god with dualistic human attributes looking down on the world (which there is not in my humble opinion) he would be thinking to himself 'Time to move on folks'.