Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai General Chat

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast ... index.html

It should be clear though that the punishment is not for 'being raped' but for breaking the segregation laws of meeting in a car with an unrelated male.

Harsh indeed, but it's a very black and white application of the law.

It is akin to me perhaps driving from a petrol station without paying and then immediately being crashed into by a reckless driver. Being a victim of one crime does not exonerate me from another.

Having said that, I find some of the laws of segregation impractical, but she was well aware what she was doing before the rape was a crime. There is no indication as to whether her actions incited the violence against here though.

What is shocking most is that she was raped.

Horrendous. Poor, poor girl..

Before anyone points out the obvious, I am aware that the sentences for the rapists have been extended.

BUT it is still rather telling to consider the original sentences - in the case of at least one offender, 10 months.

She now gets six months in jail (not to mention the lashes) for meeting an unrelated male.

Six months, ten months (at one point) - we're almost in the same
ball-park. And yet the crimes couldn't be more different.

I wonder if the rapists get lashes too...

"The judges more than doubled the punishment for the victim because of "her attempt to aggravate and influence the judiciary through the media..""

I guess this is also a part of their law?

^ian^ wrote:It should be clear though that the punishment is not for 'being raped' but for breaking the segregation laws of meeting in a car with an unrelated male.

Harsh indeed, but it's a very black and white application of the law.

It is akin to me perhaps driving from a petrol station without paying and then immediately being crashed into by a reckless driver. Being a victim of one crime does not exonerate me from another.

Having said that, I find some of the laws of segregation impractical, but she was well aware what she was doing before the rape was a crime. There is no indication as to whether her actions incited the violence against here though.

What is shocking most is that she was raped.

True, but if you think about it, the law is intended to "punish" someone in this case the girl for her action (meeting an unrelated male). However, she was more than punished by being raped by 7 men. Not that everyone she meets would rape her but she sure has already paid the price for her actions.

Law and Justice should be applied with some common-sense thrown in just for the hell of it...

What are the 200 lashes going to do other than inflict more punishment...

Concord wrote:

^ian^ wrote:It should be clear though that the punishment is not for 'being raped' but for breaking the segregation laws of meeting in a car with an unrelated male.

Harsh indeed, but it's a very black and white application of the law.

It is akin to me perhaps driving from a petrol station without paying and then immediately being crashed into by a reckless driver. Being a victim of one crime does not exonerate me from another.

Having said that, I find some of the laws of segregation impractical, but she was well aware what she was doing before the rape was a crime. There is no indication as to whether her actions incited the violence against here though.

What is shocking most is that she was raped.

True, but if you think about it, the law is intended to "punish" someone in this case the girl for her action (meeting an unrelated male). However, she was more than punished by being raped by 7 men. Not that everyone she meets would rape her but she sure has already paid the price for her actions.

Law and Justice should be applied with some common-sense thrown in just for the hell of it...

What are the 200 lashes going to do other than inflict more punishment...

I do not disagree with you for one second... she has been through hell, and the 200 lashes won't do anything... but perhaps make her life even more miserable.

As I said, it's a very black and white application... very harsh.

Plus I will add common sense doesn't seem to have much place in certain parts of Saudi.

but it isn't the guy in the car that she met that raped her, 7 others raped the 2 of them, guy and girl, at least that is how i read the article.

The seven rapists, who abducted the pair and raped both,

so for the guys that did this, maybe they knew the pair or maybe not, maybe they thought the two were married or brother and sister, I'm not sure the fact that the girl was with an unelated male makes a diff, either way the guys should have been hung.

I am glad no one here pointed a finger at Islam. The Saudi lawmakers love to pass off their tribal nonsense as a part of Islam.

Sharia law aims to prevent crime and root causes as well, it's not only about punishing the victim it's about preventing what may later lead to or encourage a crime.
Some actions are forbidden not because they are crimes in their nature but because they might lead to a crime so Islam restricts as much as possible such situations, that's the point of preventing free mixing between both genders and obligating the veil

We don't know exactly all the details of this incident or how she got in this situation but if it's not mentioned that she was abducted for example then she might have did encourage them even indirectly. Of course the media exploits such incidents against islam and sharia law (Saudia Arabia punishes rape victim)

Even though what she's been through that doesn't exempt her from the punishment (if she was guilty), she made a mistake and caused 7 others to commit a capital sin. what will the lashes do ? they will certainly deter her and other people from doing the same thing again

debian wrote:she made a mistake and caused 7 others to commit a capital sin.

This is the contentious bit. Nobody 'causes' themselves to have a crime of this nature perpetrated against them.

7 guys weren't just sitting around, saw her and go, 'oh crap, dude, we need to rape this women because of what she has done.'

debian wrote: she made a mistake and caused 7 others to commit a capital sin.

Surely you are joking.


I've heard of "the devil made me do it". But this one takes the cake.

gtmash wrote:I am glad no one here pointed a finger at Islam. The Saudi lawmakers love to pass off their tribal nonsense as a part of Islam.

See gt, I know what you mean. Speaking as a muslim, I feel the same way.

But here's the catch. Someone like debian comes along and makes a statement like

...she might have did encourage them even indirectly...

and

she made a mistake and caused 7 others to commit a capital sin.

and what happens? Well, we know what happens - the rest of the world heaves a collective sigh and says 'sorry, the progressive face of Islam...you were saying?''

Well, last time I checked, being raped wasn't just an Islamic problem, I think it's a 'retard' problem... and the world is full of them from all walks and ilks.

Pathetic application of law. Such foolish things can be conceived only by the men who live in the dark ages of Evil. I just cant get the logic behind some idiot saying I've all the right to punish someone coz it's the "almighty God Who loves everyone"' s wish even if the crime doesnt seem like a crime to common man.

Murder of humanity, clearly barbaric.

BBC News version:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7098480.stm

hmmmm rape is a serious issue. but guys do remember this in the middle east these are the laws. If you are caught doing something with someone then you are in trouble. the girl met the guy no1 told her to meet him but she met him and the rest we dont know. who knows she did have sex with him who knows she didnt have it and was actually raped. who knows the girl is porbably doing this so she can get compensated or she was actually raped. I am pretty sure that there are loads of girls in the middle east especially in UAE who do not come forward and report it because they are afraid of the table turning on to them and them being sentenced or deported. And this is not just UAE or the middle east it happens EVERYWHERE. in uk some women do not come forward because they dont want to share their ordeal with the public in a court room.

What is it they say???

"She was asking for it."

Yeah, that's it. How dare she get in a car with an unrelated male. Such nerve in these young people.

thats just it. she got into a car. I am sure he must have been her bf or a close friend or whatever. what happened next we dont know. who knows it could have been a real rape or who knows she willing wanted to do it.

We have laws here. The girl must have known that just to meet a guy is braking a law in Saudi.

"Women are subject to numerous restrictions in Saudi Arabia" - quote from CNN.

I think CNN has double standards here. They just want to address the problems women are facing in Saudi.

Lol y does the western media do that? There are so many women being raped in Africa by militia who usa government supports with guns and funds. How come I dont see that in CNN??? there are women raped in USA ever minute lol i dont see that story hiting the headlines.


Cnn should mind their own business.

rudeboy wrote:I am pretty sure that there are loads of girls in the middle east especially in UAE who do not come forward and report it because they are afraid of the table turning on to them and them being sentenced or deported.

So that's why I don't understand your point. What you wrote above is precisely why the law should protect the victim!

If the law comes down in full force on the perpetrator AND at the same time assures the woman that she is innocent (and doesn't add further punishment like lashing) - then more women who have been raped will come forward!

I do not buy into this 'this is the law, you know the law' routine. This is something which doesn't help anybody. It is also a common arguement applied to expats, who are percieved to be unwilling to 'accept' a country's culture.

But this is ridiculous. There are millions of people who are nationals of {insert country} who want change themselves. Young professional women in Saudi Arabia want to be able to drive. They want to be able to meet a distant cousin without being subject to lashing. For 'outsiders' to say 'oh well, that's the law, she knew what she was doing' is a form of armchair mentality, not to mention unbelievably unsympathetic!

Believe it or not when 7 men gang-rape a woman it leaves evidence behind, so drop the inane assumption that it was consensual lest you want to dig a bigger hole for yourself.

And the article isn't debating whether or not she broke the "law", it is showing how the law is retarded.

burton wrote:

rudeboy wrote:I am pretty sure that there are loads of girls in the middle east especially in UAE who do not come forward and report it because they are afraid of the table turning on to them and them being sentenced or deported.

So that's why I don't understand your point. What you wrote above is precisely why the law should protect the victim!

If the law comes down in full force on the perpetrator AND at the same time assures the woman that she is innocent (and doesn't add further punishment like lashing) - then more women who have been raped will come forward!

I do not buy into this 'this is the law, you know the law' routine. This is something which doesn't help anybody. It is also a common arguement applied to expats, who are percieved to be unwilling to 'accept' a country's culture.

But this is ridiculous. There are millions of people who are nationals of {insert country} who want change themselves. Young professional women in Saudi Arabia want to be able to drive. They want to be able to meet a distant cousin without being subject to lashing. For 'outsiders' to say 'oh well, that's the law, she knew what she was doing' is a form of armchair mentality, not to mention unbelievably unsympathetic!

the law is there to protect women. the law encourages women not to go and meet guys and have sex and get pregnant or whatever. Thats y the laws are RETARTED. the laws are there to protect women. The law is there to protect victims but HOW do we know they are VICTIMS OR NOT.
How do we know that they didnt actually go and meet these guys and then wanted to have it off with them? do you know? does the CNN know?

The judge is punishing them because they went to meet these guys. Tell me another thing y is Saudi being focused here? y not the women in africa who get raped? y isnt CNN reporting about them?

rudeboy wrote:the law is there to protect women. the law encourages women not to go and meet guys and have love and get pregnant or whatever. Thats y the laws are RETARTED. the laws are there to protect women. The law is there to protect victims

Lets protect them by lashing them 200 times if they misbehave, gotcha.

rudeboy wrote:but HOW do we know they are VICTIMS OR NOT.
How do we know that they didnt actually go and meet these guys and then wanted to have it off with them? do you know? does the CNN know?

I don't even know how to begin answering your question, this theory takes the cake; it's so stupid, it's almost on a separate plane of existence. I'm having a hard time determining whether you're joking or not, but for the sake of this argument I'm going to assume the latter.

rudeboy wrote:The judge is punishing them because they went to meet these guys. Tell me another thing y is Saudi being focused here? y not the women in africa who get raped? y isnt CNN reporting about them?

Because after they get raped they don't get whipped 200 times, even after committing such horrendous acts as being in a car with a guy.

Medvezhonok wrote:

rudeboy wrote:the law is there to protect women. the law encourages women not to go and meet guys and have love and get pregnant or whatever. Thats y the laws are RETARTED. the laws are there to protect women. The law is there to protect victims

Lets protect them by lashing them 200 times if they misbehave, gotcha.

rudeboy wrote:but HOW do we know they are VICTIMS OR NOT.
How do we know that they didnt actually go and meet these guys and then wanted to have it off with them? do you know? does the CNN know?

I don't even know how to begin answering your question, this theory takes the cake; it's so stupid, it's almost on a separate plane of existence. I'm having a hard time determining whether you're joking or not, but for the sake of this argument I'm going to assume the latter.

rudeboy wrote:The judge is punishing them because they went to meet these guys. Tell me another thing y is Saudi being focused here? y not the women in africa who get raped? y isnt CNN reporting about them?

Because after they get raped they don't get whipped 200 times, even after committing such horrendous acts as being in a car with a guy.

lol ok i m joking wots so ever just answer this. How do you know they were raped?

rudeboy wrote:lol ok i m joking wots so ever just answer this. How do you know they were raped?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_assault_kit

* A nurse explains the hospital's HIV testing procedure and why HIV testing is beneficial. The victim then decides whether or not to permit HIV testing. In many states, there is no charge to the victim for these services.
* Routine blood collection is done (to check for pregnancy or sexually transmitted diseases).
* The nurse documents any evidence of torn clothing or external injuries and takes photographs.
* The victim's clothing is collected and new clothes are provided.
* Any physical evidence from the rape scene (such as grass or leaves) is also collected.
* Hairs are collected: the nurse collects any loose hairs or debris in the pelvic area (looking for pubic hairs of the assailant). In some cases, some of the victim's pubic hairs are needed and 15-20 of the victim's head hairs (to differentiate the victim's hairs from the assailant's).
* Fingernail scrapings are collected for detection of blood or tissue.
* The nurse then examines the victim's perineum, thighs, abdomen, buttocks and facial area for evidence of semen and, if detected, it is collected.
* Several slides are made and swabs taken from the vaginal, anal, and oral areas to check for semen, sexually transmitted diseases, and infections.
* The hospital provides the victim with any preventive medicine necessary (for tetanus, sexually transmitted diseases, pregnancy, etc.).
* Medical personnel perform the pelvic exam. The victim may request to have the examination done by a person of the same gender.

The sexual assault kit is then sealed in a box and secured at the hospital until given to the police for further laboratory analysis. For the box to be used in criminal proceedings, it is vital that the chain of custody and the integrity of the kit is preserved.

yes i know there are loads of tests you can carry out even dna testing and forensic testing to see if you are a victim of rape or not.

Ok first i do not see any mention of this testing in the report by CNN can you tell me why? was such a test was carried out or not? I am guessing it was otherwise "After a year, the preliminary court changed the punishment and made it two to nine years for the defendants," al-Lahim said of the new decision handed down Wednesday, this is a quote from CNN.

So the guys did rape her and yes they are being punished as well.

2). the girl was lashed 200 times. y because "The 19-year-old victim was sentenced last year to 90 lashes for meeting with an unrelated male, a former friend from whom she was retrieving photographs".

She was lashed for meeting a guy not for being RAPED. The laws are there to protect women, to protect women from getting pregnant before marriage, to protects a family name and reputation as well as the girls name. The law discourages a girl to meet a guy because anything can happen. And yes something did happen. She got rapped. had she not met the guy she wouldnt have been in such a great mess.

The law doesnt make sense if you look at it the first time. but if u look at the wider picture u ll see the whole story. The guys who raped her got punished as well and the girl got raped for meeting the guys. yeh shes an angel and maybe the guy is a nice guy but we all are not perfect. and thats y the law is there to protect the girls from those who got sick minds.

I think if the girl hadnt met the guys she wouldnt have been in such trouble. she wouldnt have been raped and she wouldnt have gotten whipped.

I agree with CNN there are some stupid laws like women not allowed to drive or vote but I am 100% behind this one.

CNN should also address the women being raped in Africa by militants who the USA government funds and weapons. Yeh those women do not get lashes instead they die of HIY.

Medvezhonok wrote:

rudeboy wrote:lol ok i m joking wots so ever just answer this. How do you know they were raped?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_assault_kit

* A nurse explains the hospital's HIV testing procedure and why HIV testing is beneficial. The victim then decides whether or not to permit HIV testing. In many states, there is no charge to the victim for these services.
* Routine blood collection is done (to check for pregnancy or sexually transmitted diseases).
* The nurse documents any evidence of torn clothing or external injuries and takes photographs.
* The victim's clothing is collected and new clothes are provided.
* Any physical evidence from the rape scene (such as grass or leaves) is also collected.
* Hairs are collected: the nurse collects any loose hairs or debris in the pelvic area (looking for pubic hairs of the assailant). In some cases, some of the victim's pubic hairs are needed and 15-20 of the victim's head hairs (to differentiate the victim's hairs from the assailant's).
* Fingernail scrapings are collected for detection of blood or tissue.
* The nurse then examines the victim's perineum, thighs, abdomen, buttocks and facial area for evidence of semen and, if detected, it is collected.
* Several slides are made and swabs taken from the vaginal, anal, and oral areas to check for semen, sexually transmitted diseases, and infections.
* The hospital provides the victim with any preventive medicine necessary (for tetanus, sexually transmitted diseases, pregnancy, etc.).
* Medical personnel perform the pelvic exam. The victim may request to have the examination done by a person of the same gender.

The sexual assault kit is then sealed in a box and secured at the hospital until given to the police for further laboratory analysis. For the box to be used in criminal proceedings, it is vital that the chain of custody and the integrity of the kit is preserved.

It's actually easier to tell if they were raped.... ask them.

^ian^ wrote:

Medvezhonok wrote:

rudeboy wrote:lol ok i m joking wots so ever just answer this. How do you know they were raped?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_assault_kit

* A nurse explains the hospital's HIV testing procedure and why HIV testing is beneficial. The victim then decides whether or not to permit HIV testing. In many states, there is no charge to the victim for these services.
* Routine blood collection is done (to check for pregnancy or sexually transmitted diseases).
* The nurse documents any evidence of torn clothing or external injuries and takes photographs.
* The victim's clothing is collected and new clothes are provided.
* Any physical evidence from the rape scene (such as grass or leaves) is also collected.
* Hairs are collected: the nurse collects any loose hairs or debris in the pelvic area (looking for pubic hairs of the assailant). In some cases, some of the victim's pubic hairs are needed and 15-20 of the victim's head hairs (to differentiate the victim's hairs from the assailant's).
* Fingernail scrapings are collected for detection of blood or tissue.
* The nurse then examines the victim's perineum, thighs, abdomen, buttocks and facial area for evidence of semen and, if detected, it is collected.
* Several slides are made and swabs taken from the vaginal, anal, and oral areas to check for semen, sexually transmitted diseases, and infections.
* The hospital provides the victim with any preventive medicine necessary (for tetanus, sexually transmitted diseases, pregnancy, etc.).
* Medical personnel perform the pelvic exam. The victim may request to have the examination done by a person of the same gender.

The sexual assault kit is then sealed in a box and secured at the hospital until given to the police for further laboratory analysis. For the box to be used in criminal proceedings, it is vital that the chain of custody and the integrity of the kit is preserved.

It's actually easier to tell if they were raped.... ask them.

yeh u can. but how can you trust them? how do you know they are telling the truth or not? how do you know they are just doing this to get compensated? thats why the tests are necessary

rudeboy wrote:yeh u can. but how can you trust them? how do you know they are telling the truth or not? how do you know they are just doing this to get compensated? thats why the tests are necessary

the test confirms intercourse took place. It doesn't test if consent was given.

Application of Aristotle's truths could yield whether consent was given.

rudeboy wrote:yeh u can. but how can you trust them? how do you know they are telling the truth or not?

Rudeboy

Despite the phenomena of 'fabricated rape', most women who call police, go to court, go through the horrible procedure of having their ordeal made public claiming they have been raped - have been.

To be honest mate, with all this crap talk about 'but how can you trust them?' you are starting to sound like a bit of an idiot. That, or a wind-up merchant.

If it's the latter, well done etc you're a really funny guy...

^ian^ wrote:

rudeboy wrote:yeh u can. but how can you trust them? how do you know they are telling the truth or not? how do you know they are just doing this to get compensated? thats why the tests are necessary

the test confirms intercourse took place. It doesn't test if consent was given.

Application of Aristotle's truths could yield whether consent was given.

Ian in this saudi case the girl was raped otherwise the 7 blokes wouldnt be spending 5 to 10 years in prison. but usualy how can you tell if a victim is in fact a victim or not apart from someone who saw it happened. but if you someone hasnt seen the thing happen how can u make sure whether the victim is telling the truth or not.

a guy and a girl in a car in some place having sex. police catches u and the girl goes oh he raped me. they do the testing and all to check whether an intercourse took place. ok it did how do you know whether the girl gave consent or not? the girl knows she is in trouble she starts screaming and shouting and says the guy raped her. how do u know she is telling the truth maybe she wants to get out of trouble and her way out is this.

y is it that u here now and then that some rap star has got rape charges filed against them. its probably cos the girl wants money or wants the sugar daddy to look after the kid "financially".

there are some who do get raped and the criminals get away. its a sick world we live in.