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http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1.htm#ch1-1

http://www.islam-guide.com/truth.htm

Ok. I don't see anything scientific about the comparison of the shapes of a leech and a human embroyo. Sorry.

pinoy1 wrote:Ok. I don't see anything scientific about the comparison of the shapes of a leech and a human embroyo. Sorry.

It is not a comparsion of shapes if you have read the article,it is comparing a leech to an embryo in the alaqah stage,So the three meanings of the word alaqah correspond accurately to the descriptions of the embryo at the alaqah stage.

I recommend that you contact Professor Emeritus Keith L. Moore, he is not a muslim

www.thisistruth.org

Dr. Moore hasn't embraced islam ?

If Islam embraces science so much what has it contributed in the last 100 years? You could even make that 1000 years and it would still be a very small proportion of overall scientific evolution.

all i gots to say is once the foundation is set an its firm an proper .. that till today the load at the top which is continously being added is cause the current knowledge shows the foundation cant be encaved.. is cause of the muslim and middle eastern scholars ( let me name one IBN SINA ) .. not only in the field of medicine but philosophy astronomy an so on ..

i mean when these nigggas were chillin in palaces an chewin on kebabs the western world hardly existed an if they was chewin on somethin it was raw meat ..

an the only reason why the west be workin continously on the medicine front these days ... is cause them nigggas be the cause of all new diseases .. we already cured wateva we had to ... but you all niggas bringing all this aids sh.it around an em dirty chinks startin all these sar's , bird flu's , an mad cow diseases ... now you all gots to deal with it .. you done takin our oil money an foolin us to build big building for no reason an makin us buy 100's of planes for no reason .. to help strenghten ur economy .. an you still want us to be the one's researchin .. easy on us now ... use the money you done robbed an continue the reaserches we started out .. evolutioni as you said ..

and p.s dont start arguin about aids not being a disease started in the west .. and dont start claimin that it came from green monkeys up in africa ... cause if you do say that an claim that .. then J gots only but one question .. what in the fu ck was you all doin in africa gettin fu cked by them green monkeys..????


easy on me with the disses that you all gonna come up with now .. i was just tryin to be as intellectual minded as i can ..

scot1870 wrote:If Islam embraces science so much what has it contributed in the last 100 years? You could even make that 1000 years and it would still be a very small proportion of overall scientific evolution.

Influence on European science
Further information: Latin translations of the 12th century
Contributing to the growth of European science was the major search by European scholars for new learning which they could only find among Muslims, especially in Islamic Spain and Sicily. These scholars translated new scientific and philosophical texts from Arabic into Latin.

One of the most productive translators in Spain was Gerard of Cremona, who translated 87 books from Arabic to Latin,[30] including Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī's On Algebra and Almucabala, Jabir ibn Aflah's Elementa astronomica,[31] al-Kindi's On Optics, Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Kathīr al-Farghānī's On Elements of Astronomy on the Celestial Motions, al-Farabi's On the Classification of the Sciences,[32] the chemical and medical works of Razi,[33] the works of Thabit ibn Qurra and Hunayn ibn Ishaq,[34] and the works of Arzachel, Jabir ibn Aflah, the Banū Mūsā, Abū Kāmil Shujā ibn Aslam, Abu al-Qasim, and Ibn al-Haytham (including the Book of Optics).[30]

Other Arabic works translated into Latin during the 12th century include the works of Muhammad ibn Jābir al-Harrānī al-Battānī and Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī (including The Compendious Book on Calculation by Completion and Balancing),[31] the works of Abu al-Qasim (including the al-Tasrif),[35][30] Muhammad al-Fazari's Great Sindhind (based on the Surya Siddhanta and the works of Brahmagupta),[36] the works of Razi and Avicenna (including The Book of Healing and The Canon of Medicine),[37] the works of Averroes,[35] the works of Thabit ibn Qurra, al-Farabi, Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Kathīr al-Farghānī, Hunayn ibn Ishaq, and his nephew Hubaysh ibn al-Hasan,[38] the works of al-Kindi, Abraham bar Hiyya's Liber embadorum, Ibn Sarabi's (Serapion Junior) De Simplicibus,[35] the works of Qusta ibn Luqa,[39] the works of Maslamah Ibn Ahmad al-Majriti, Ja'far ibn Muhammad Abu Ma'shar al-Balkhi, and al-Ghazali,[30] the works of Nur Ed-Din Al Betrugi, including On the Motions of the Heavens,[40][33] Ali ibn Abbas al-Majusi's medical encyclopedia, The Complete Book of the Medical Art,[33] Abu Mashar's Introduction to Astrology,[41] the works of Maimonides, Ibn Zezla (Byngezla), Masawaiyh, Serapion, al-Qifti, and Albe'thar.[42] Abū Kāmil Shujā ibn Aslam's Algebra,[31] the chemical works of Geber, and the De Proprietatibus Elementorum, an Arabic work on geology written by a pseudo-Aristotle.[33] By the beginning of the 13th century, Mark of Toledo translated the Qur'an and various medical works.[43]

Fibonacci presented the first complete European account of the Hindu-Arabic numeral system from Arabic sources in his Liber Abaci (1202).[33] Al-Khazini's Zij as-Sanjari was translated into Greek by Gregory Choniades in the 13th century and was studied in the Byzantine Empire.[44] The astronomical corrections to the Ptolemaic model made by al-Battani, Averroes, Mo'ayyeduddin Urdi (Urdi lemma), Nasir al-Din al-Tusi (Tusi-couple) and Ibn al-Shatir were later adapted into the Copernican heliocentric model. Al-Kindi's (Alkindus) law of terrestrial gravity influenced Robert Hooke's law of celestial gravity, which in turn inspired Newton's law of universal gravitation. Abū al-Rayhān al-Bīrūnī's Ta'rikh al-Hind and Kitab al-qanun al-Mas’udi were translated into Latin as Indica and Canon Mas’udicus respectively. Ibn al-Nafis' commentary on the last part of Avicenna's The Canon of Medicine concerning remedies was translated into Latin by Andrea Alpago (d. 1522) and published in Europe in 1547. Ibn al-Nafis' Commentary on the Anatomy of Canon of Avicenna, which first described pulmonary circulation, may have also been translated into Latin and available in Europe around that time, and it may have had an influence on Michael Servetus and Realdo Colombo.[45] Translations of Omar Khayyám's works on algebra and geometry were later influential in the development of non-Euclidean geometry in Europe in the 18th century.[46]


Read this my friend in wikipedia, you will know it is not 1000 but 10000 years of contributions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_science

My concern is more with the Christian war on evolution theory, stem cell research and prayer in school.

I think anyone should be free to practise whatever religion they want, just keep the bullshit away from my kids is all I ask. I do like the fact that now Atheists can speak freely (well in most places and some of the time) without being murdered or subjected or cast out of the family for life.

Jamal wrote:all i gots to say is once the foundation is set an its firm an proper .. that till today the load at the top which is continously being added is cause the current knowledge shows the foundation cant be encaved.. is cause of the muslim and middle eastern scholars ( let me name one IBN SINA ) .. not only in the field of medicine but philosophy astronomy an so on ..

i mean when these nigggas were chillin in palaces an chewin on kebabs the western world hardly existed an if they was chewin on somethin it was raw meat ..

an the only reason why the west be workin continously on the medicine front these days ... is cause them nigggas be the cause of all new diseases .. we already cured wateva we had to ... but you all niggas bringing all this aids sh.it around an em dirty chinks startin all these sar's , bird flu's , an mad cow diseases ... now you all gots to deal with it .. you done takin our oil money an foolin us to build big building for no reason an makin us buy 100's of planes for no reason .. to help strenghten ur economy .. an you still want us to be the one's researchin .. easy on us now ... use the money you done robbed an continue the reaserches we started out .. evolutioni as you said ..

and p.s dont start arguin about aids not being a disease started in the west .. and dont start claimin that it came from green monkeys up in africa ... cause if you do say that an claim that .. then J gots only but one question .. what in the fu ck was you all doin in africa gettin fu cked by them green monkeys..????


easy on me with the disses that you all gonna come up with now .. i was just tryin to be as intellectual minded as i can ..

lol hahah heheh

uaebadoo wrote:Influence on European science
Further information: Latin translations of the 12th century
Contributing to the growth of European science was the major search by European scholars for new learning which they could only find among Muslims, especially in Islamic Spain and Sicily. These scholars translated new scientific and philosophical texts from Arabic into Latin.

Yup, you confirmed your input was next to nothing. Translating books centuries ago? Forget the steam engine, telephone, television, internet or anything vaguely important, you guys had it cornered years ago.

I would go as far as to say the shopping trolley is a greater invention than anything out of the Islamic world in the last 100 years.

scot1870 wrote:

uaebadoo wrote:Influence on European science
Further information: Latin translations of the 12th century
Contributing to the growth of European science was the major search by European scholars for new learning which they could only find among Muslims, especially in Islamic Spain and Sicily. These scholars translated new scientific and philosophical texts from Arabic into Latin.

Yup, you confirmed your input was next to nothing. Translating books centuries ago? Forget the steam engine, telephone, television, internet or anything vaguely important, you guys had it cornered years ago.

I would go as far as to say the shopping trolley is a greater invention than anything out of the Islamic world in the last 100 years.

scot ur right that the Islamic world couldnt come up with a "useful" invention.

Its a shame that the first person to develop the Atom or Nuclear bomb wasnt from the Islamic World.

Its a shame that person who invented the AK-47 or the Uzi wasnt from Islamic World.

Its a shame that none of the muslim scholars could have come up with anything helpful to the world apart from some equations in mathematics, chemistry, physics and medicine

Their contribution to those was tiny, that's my point

scot1870 wrote:

uaebadoo wrote:Influence on European science
Further information: Latin translations of the 12th century
Contributing to the growth of European science was the major search by European scholars for new learning which they could only find among Muslims, especially in Islamic Spain and Sicily. These scholars translated new scientific and philosophical texts from Arabic into Latin.

Yup, you confirmed your input was next to nothing. Translating books centuries ago? Forget the, you guys had it cornered years ago.

I would go as far as to say the shopping trolley is a greater invention than anything out of the Islamic world in the last 100 years.

Read 123456789 and 0
These are ARABIC Numbers, without them no ( steam engine, telephone, television, internet or anything vaguely important) as you said could have been invented, even your name scot1870 can't be written without using Arabic Numbers

scot1870 wrote:Their contribution to those was tiny, that's my point

Scot theres a good reason behind this. The Islamic world was going through its Golden Age where they made HUGE discoveries and inventions and then the Muslims fell into their own Dark Age where everything was lost or became a legend or a myth. a bit like King Aurthur and the round table story . It could have happened but there is no record of it in the history books because of the Dark Age era. Same thing with the islamic world. the dark age occured with the crusades and the devastation of the Mongol invasion, when thousands of libraries and books were destroyed and when hundreds of scholars and scientist were murdered. And some other would also argue that there was a internal division within Muslim society.

So some of the inventions could have been discovered well before the western world but because of the dark ages with no record of discoverys made by the islamic world some of the scholars from europe took credit. And in those days scholars would even argue amongst themselves. Arguing that they came up with the idea first etc. And do remember copyrights wasnt known at that time .

Someone please educate me on this one...
Since the topic's about Islam and science (thus technological innovations), I've HEARD before that Islam tells muslims to shun away from these materialistic technological advances. Am I entirely wrong?

pinoy1 wrote:Someone please educate me on this one...
Since the topic's about Islam and science (thus technological innovations), I've HEARD before that Islam tells muslims to shun away from these materialistic technological advances. Am I entirely wrong?

Yes, on the contrary Islam encourages science and discovery

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things (29:20)

Now let man but think from what he is created! (86:5)

Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of night and day,- there are indeed Signs for men of understanding,-
Those who remember God, standing, sitting and lying on their sides, and reflect on the creation of the heavens and the earth:'Our Lord, You have not created this for nothing. Glory be to You! So safeguard us from the punishment of the Fire. (3:190-191)

Do they not consider the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and whatever things Allah has created, and that may be their doom shall have drawn nigh; what announcement would they then believe in after this? (7:185)

Say: "Travel through the earth and see what was the end of those before (you): Most of them worshipped others besides Allah." (30:42)

He it is Who made the sun a shining brightness and the moon a light, and ordained for it mansions that you might know the computation of years and the reckoning. Allah did not create it but with truth; He makes the signs manifest for a people who have knowledge (10:5)

uaebadoo wrote:

scot1870 wrote:

uaebadoo wrote:Influence on European science
Further information: Latin translations of the 12th century
Contributing to the growth of European science was the major search by European scholars for new learning which they could only find among Muslims, especially in Islamic Spain and Sicily. These scholars translated new scientific and philosophical texts from Arabic into Latin.

Yup, you confirmed your input was next to nothing. Translating books centuries ago? Forget the, you guys had it cornered years ago.

I would go as far as to say the shopping trolley is a greater invention than anything out of the Islamic world in the last 100 years.

Read 123456789 and 0
These are ARABIC Numbers, without them no ( steam engine, telephone, television, internet or anything vaguely important) as you said could have been invented, even your name scot1870 can't be written without using Arabic Numbers

The "arabic" numbers isnt even arabic to begin with, it only reached the western world via the arabs n therefore the arabs are credited for it. But the origin seem to be India.

And its the same thing with many arabic/muslim "inventions". In the early centuries of Islam and arabic culture it expanded very quickly. The arabs conquered big areas in the mid. east. An area known for many great civilizations. They learned a lot from those civilizations and preserved it. During this time Europe was in the dark ages and science wasnt evolving at all, but when Europe came out of the darkness they got to learn a lot from the arabs, and miscrediting them for being the inventors while they in reality just had been preserving ancient science. Oh, and an addition to that, the arabs wasnt only preserving, they burned down the library of alexandria and much of the ancient science went lost along with unvaluable historical information.

Theres of course some pure arabic inventions too, and the arabs played a big part in leading the way for todays science by preserving ancient knowledge that wudve gone lost in europe durin the dark age otherwise. Either way, Europe and the western world was and still is (even though this is about to change) the leading area in science and technology, saying anything else is just ridicoulus. Atleast for the last 500 years all important discoveires has been made in the west, and the wests contribution to science is pretty much incomparable.


OnT:

The miracles of the koran doesnt really seem like miracles to me. I'll explain later if I have time. Theres some things thats remarkable that a 700th century beduin wudve known but calling it miracle is a bit far. Its all about interpretation of the text. Either way, can it really be called scientific miracle when we have to discover it first in order to be able to interpretate it the right way? Why doesnt it for example say "The montains are created from the tectonail plates colliding"? then i wudve gone and converted right away.

sry, double post

node88 wrote:OnT:

The miracles of the koran doesnt really seem like miracles to me. I'll explain later if I have time. Theres some things thats remarkable that a 700th century beduin wudve known but calling it miracle is a bit far. Its all about interpretation of the text. Either way, can it really be called scientific miracle when we have to discover it first in order to be able to interpretate it the right way? Why doesnt it for example say "The montains are created from the tectonail plates colliding"? then i wudve gone and converted right away.

It appears you have done some reading on the role the Islamic civilization/empire played in the preservation and transmission of earlier scientific materials. This also extended to literature, poetry and even music. You play down the new achievements - i.e. advancements made by the Muslims. Fair enough - this is what some 'orientalist' writers portray, but just a wander around Ibn Battuta mall puts this into context... anyway, I'm sure others will be able to enumerate the advances made in sciences, mathematics, astronomy etc by Muslim and Non-Muslim poly-maths under the Golden era of the Islamic Empire.

However, I wanted to ask you a question based on the above quote:

Going back just a few decades back, say, how would you have explained to the average man in the street what a microwave oven is and how it operates? What words would you use that they would understand? Would you speak in scientific terms and be understood, or would you express the concepts in terms and words they would understand?

How would you explain to a person from 150 years ago how you could see and speak to a person standing on the moon (let alone describe how they would get there)?

I ask the questions just to make the point that descriptions from 1500 years ago of natural phenomena necessarily do not use technical/scientific terms because these terms had not yet been invented.

The miracles of the Quran are many. On the scientific claims, the Quran's verses are remarkable in that as new scientific discoveries are made (uncovering God's work), one is amazed to look back at the verses of the Quran and find that they are in total agreement and even (with the benefit of hind-sight) an exposition of the findings.

The Nobel Laureate for Physics awarded in 1979, Prof. Abdus Salaam was the first Muslim awarded this prize for science - and his prize was for work he did predicting the unification of two of the fundamental forces of nature. He was at the cutting edge of science, but also wrote a lot on how the Quran was his guiding light and that all his findings were in total accordance with the Quran. He pointed out that the Quran has more verses advocating believers to study the creation of God (i.e. Science) than there were verses stating the 'rules'/'laws' that mankind should follow - I think it was at least twice as many verses telling people to study creation.

However, at the end of the day religion is based on faith - I take a logical approach and believe in things that make sense to me. This approach does not apply to many others - for them logic is not as important, but personal experience, cultural significance or just what they were born into are more important.

From the first records of religion, there have always been two reactions to miracles - those who see them as miracles, and those who dismiss them or disregard them. No record exists of people seeing a miracle - or experiencing a prophecy fulfilled - and then all agreeing to the truth of the prophet/messenger (the closest though is the account of the people of Jonah who did repent, pray and have the punishment averted.). That is not how God created us - at the root of our existence is the choice God has given us.

If it wasn't for free will, there would be no need for religion, laws, heaven, hell etc.

All the best.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:

node88 wrote:OnT:

The miracles of the koran doesnt really seem like miracles to me. I'll explain later if I have time. Theres some things thats remarkable that a 700th century beduin wudve known but calling it miracle is a bit far. Its all about interpretation of the text. Either way, can it really be called scientific miracle when we have to discover it first in order to be able to interpretate it the right way? Why doesnt it for example say "The montains are created from the tectonail plates colliding"? then i wudve gone and converted right away.

It appears you have done some reading on the role the Islamic civilization/empire played in the preservation and transmission of earlier scientific materials. This also extended to literature, poetry and even music. You play down the new achievements - i.e. advancements made by the Muslims. Fair enough - this is what some 'orientalist' writers portray, but just a wander around Ibn Battuta mall puts this into context... anyway, I'm sure others will be able to enumerate the advances made in sciences, mathematics, astronomy etc by Muslim and Non-Muslim poly-maths under the Golden era of the Islamic Empire.

However, I wanted to ask you a question based on the above quote:

Going back just a few decades back, say, how would you have explained to the average man in the street what a microwave oven is and how it operates? What words would you use that they would understand? Would you speak in scientific terms and be understood, or would you express the concepts in terms and words they would understand?

How would you explain to a person from 150 years ago how you could see and speak to a person standing on the moon (let alone describe how they would get there)?

I ask the questions just to make the point that descriptions from 1500 years ago of natural phenomena necessarily do not use technical/scientific terms because these terms had not yet been invented.

The miracles of the Quran are many. On the scientific claims, the Quran's verses are remarkable in that as new scientific discoveries are made (uncovering God's work), one is amazed to look back at the verses of the Quran and find that they are in total agreement and even (with the benefit of hind-sight) an exposition of the findings.

The Nobel Laureate for Physics awarded in 1979, Prof. Abdus Salaam was the first Muslim awarded this prize for science - and his prize was for work he did predicting the unification of two of the fundamental forces of nature. He was at the cutting edge of science, but also wrote a lot on how the Quran was his guiding light and that all his findings were in total accordance with the Quran. He pointed out that the Quran has more verses advocating believers to study the creation of God (i.e. Science) than there were verses stating the 'rules'/'laws' that mankind should follow - I think it was at least twice as many verses telling people to study creation.

However, at the end of the day religion is based on faith - I take a logical approach and believe in things that make sense to me. This approach does not apply to many others - for them logic is not as important, but personal experience, cultural significance or just what they were born into are more important.

From the first records of religion, there have always been two reactions to miracles - those who see them as miracles, and those who dismiss them or disregard them. No record exists of people seeing a miracle - or experiencing a prophecy fulfilled - and then all agreeing to the truth of the prophet/messenger (the closest though is the account of the people of Jonah who did repent, pray and have the punishment averted.). That is not how God created us - at the root of our existence is the choice God has given us.

If it wasn't for free will, there would be no need for religion, laws, heaven, hell etc.

All the best.

Cheers,
Shafique

The thing is that not even the ppl 1500 years ago understood what it was saying. Otherwise it wudve been a big aid in helping us with making advances in science. But guess what, it had to be discovered in the western non islamic world first for people to be able to make the right interpretation of it. Those words can be interpretated in a thousand different ways, and to me the way its interpretaded at that site seems pretty cramped and far off. Theyve tried really hard making it fit todays science, but its hardly a miracle. The only things thats spot on are basic stuff thats not that hard to know even for a 700th century man.

And talking about that, what about the stuff that contradicts todays science? That sperm is produced between the backbone and the ribs for example. How can the holy book be wrong about such a basic thing? Or are todays science wrong about such a simple thing? And whats up with the sun settling in a muddy pond? That doesnt seem very scientific to me...

node88 wrote:And talking about that, what about the stuff that contradicts todays science? That sperm is produced between the backbone and the ribs for example. How can the holy book be wrong about such a basic thing? Or are todays science wrong about such a simple thing? And whats up with the sun settling in a muddy pond? That doesnt seem very scientific to me...

node88 - please give me the references and translations of the verses according to where you got these from, and I'll look them up and comment on these for you.

I don't recall the reference of sperm in relation to the backbone and ribs, so am intrigued.

As for the sun setting in a muddy pond, this does ring a bell - but please refresh my memory with the reference and I'll post the correct translation for you and explain this one (sun set, you will know from your science lessons is only relevant to a being on a rotating planet - and today depending on where you are, the sun sets into the sea or land).

I note however that you chose not to answer my questions about what words you would use.. disapointed, but not surprised.


Oh, almost forgot - doesn't the fact that people did not understand the cryptic references 1500 years ago, but that these do make sense today say something about the foresight of the Quran?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:

node88 wrote:And talking about that, what about the stuff that contradicts todays science? That sperm is produced between the backbone and the ribs for example. How can the holy book be wrong about such a basic thing? Or are todays science wrong about such a simple thing? And whats up with the sun settling in a muddy pond? That doesnt seem very scientific to me...

node88 - please give me the references and translations of the verses according to where you got these from, and I'll look them up and comment on these for you.

I don't recall the reference of sperm in relation to the backbone and ribs, so am intrigued.

As for the sun setting in a muddy pond, this does ring a bell - but please refresh my memory with the reference and I'll post the correct translation for you and explain this one (sun set, you will know from your science lessons is only relevant to a being on a rotating planet - and today depending on where you are, the sun sets into the sea or land).

I note however that you chose not to answer my questions about what words you would use.. disapointed, but not surprised.


Oh, almost forgot - doesn't the fact that people did not understand the cryptic references 1500 years ago, but that these do make sense today say something about the foresight of the Quran?

Cheers,
Shafique

"Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted-Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs," (Qur'an 86:5-7).

And accoring to the verse at the miracles site this drop is sperm most probably.

"We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)... " (Quran, 23:12-14)


And the verse about the sun settling in a muddy pond

Koran 18:86
"Till, when he [the traveller Zul-qarnain] reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it going down into a muddy spring..."

This verse further suggests that the sun is orbiting around the earth.

Koran 36:40 "It is not for Sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit."

Ure probably gonna interpretate that in a totally different way than me, but compare these verses to the one in the scientific miracles site. Isnt these verses clearer than many of the ones on that site? But i guess u see what u want to see, but i suppose it isnt very convincing to most people thats not muslim though.

Im sure that if there was a scientific miracle site a thousand years ago when ppl believed that the earth was flat, those last two verses wud be hailed as miracles. Its all about interpretation but its hardly convincing and definatly not miracles.

And about the words used, Ill have to agree with u, of course theres a barrier to how much ppl cudve understood back then. Explaining the internet to a 700th century man wudve been impossible. But we are able to teach kids without any prior education many of those things (listed at the miracles site) quite easily. How come god cant explain it better than this. Chewed substance = an embryo? Even I can come up with a better explanation than that.

node88 wrote:

"Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted-Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs," (Qur'an 86:5-7).

And accoring to the verse at the miracles site this drop is sperm most probably.

"We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)... " (Quran, 23:12-14)

The second quotation talking about creation from a blood-clot is a very good description of a fertilized egg before it becomes a recognisable foetus - incredible stuff!

The first verse is pretty impressive stuff as well - saying that a person is created from a sperm, something that wasn't confirmed by science until much later. I'll have to look up the translation of the latter part of the verse and see whether it is as you have copied, and whether it is referring to the sperm or the development of the foetus (if correctly translated).

node88 wrote:And the verse about the sun settling in a muddy pond

Koran 18:86
"Till, when he [the traveller Zul-qarnain] reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it going down into a muddy spring..."

This reads to me like a description of a human (Dhul Qarnain) reaching the western-most part of his land to find it was a 'muddy' body of water. Do you think any person reading this verse thinks that the Sun physically goes into a muddy pool?

node88 wrote:This verse further suggests that the sun is orbiting around the earth.

Koran 36:40 "It is not for Sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit."

I can't see how you get from the above descriptions that celestial bodies have 'fixed' orbits and don't crash into each other - nor do I see where it says that the sun orbits the earth - it just says it has an orbit.

This is an incredible statement to come out of Arabia 1500 years ago - and again, literally has been proved true by scientific progress.

node88 wrote:Ure probably gonna interpretate that in a totally different way than me, but compare these verses to the one in the scientific miracles site. Isnt these verses clearer than many of the ones on that site? But i guess u see what u want to see, but i suppose it isnt very convincing to most people thats not muslim though.

I don't expect people to be convinced, but I would hope that objections are limited to facts and not propaganda. From the above, at worst you could argue that these are luck predictions that have been proved correct by science, or that they are sufficiently general that they cannot be 'proved wrong'. What cannot be disputed is that they haven't been proved wrong by science.

However, at the end of the day the Quran is not a manual on physics, but a religious book which contains God's final law to mankind and contains the literal word of God (as claimed by the book itself), and one of the logical features of such a book (if the claims are true) is that it should not contain contradictions, or facts which later proved to be wrong or contrary to science.

I will look up the reference to the ribs - but I note with satisfaction that the translations you have given prove the point of this thread magnificently - I thank you for this.

node88 wrote:Im sure that if there was a scientific miracle site a thousand years ago when ppl believed that the earth was flat, those last two verses wud be hailed as miracles. Its all about interpretation but its hardly convincing and definatly not miracles.

People's hearts are not moved by miracles or scientific prophecies. This just a fact. It would be a hollow faith to just follow something because it is amazing - David Copperfield will be considered a 'god' if that was the case

node88 wrote:And about the words used, Ill have to agree with u, of course theres a barrier to how much ppl cudve understood back then. Explaining the internet to a 700th century man wudve been impossible. But we are able to teach kids without any prior education many of those things (listed at the miracles site) quite easily. How come god cant explain it better than this. Chewed substance = an embryo? Even I can come up with a better explanation than that.

Why choose one of the meanings 'chewed substance' when another i.e. 'blood clot' is a better fit in the context? You gave this meaning above ... did you not read what you posted?

How better will you describe a ball of cells of an early fertilized egg (zygote) - how is it NOT like a 'clot of blood'?

You say you can come up with a better explanation - please let us hear it.

Cheers,
Shafique

86.5-7
So let man consider of what he is created.
He is created of gushing fluid,
Which issues forth from between the loins and the breastbones.


Commentary
It is characteristic of the Quranic style that it substitutes mild or vague words of expressions for harsh and blunt ones. 'From between the loins and the breast-bones' is one of such euphemisms used by the Quran. The verse may signify that man is born of the water that comes out of the loins of his father and is fed by the breast of his mother. The fact that man has been created from a fluid which gushes forth and then falls may signify that he has been endowed with great natural faculties to make rapid progress but he is also likely to fall to the lowest depths of degradation, if he does not make proper use of those God-given powers. The verse signifies that man's spiritual development is subject to alternate periods of progression and retrogression, like the seminal fluid that gushes forth and then falls.


The translation given by the previous poster has 'back-bone' instead of 'loins' - it will be interesting to go back to the arabic words of the verse and see which is the correct translation.

Cheers,
Shafique

I don't get this, what is scientific about the author of the quran having the knowledge that semen from a man's loins makes baby's when deposited in a females loins (sorry tried to be as un graphic as possible).

Surely that was common knowledge even back then.

shafique wrote:

node88 wrote:

"Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted-Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs," (Qur'an 86:5-7).

And accoring to the verse at the miracles site this drop is sperm most probably.

"We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)... " (Quran, 23:12-14)

The second quotation talking about creation from a blood-clot is a very good description of a fertilized egg before it becomes a recognisable foetus - incredible stuff!

The first verse is pretty impressive stuff as well - saying that a person is created from a sperm, something that wasn't confirmed by science until much later. I'll have to look up the translation of the latter part of the verse and see whether it is as you have copied, and whether it is referring to the sperm or the development of the foetus (if correctly translated).

node88 wrote:And the verse about the sun settling in a muddy pond

Koran 18:86
"Till, when he [the traveller Zul-qarnain] reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it going down into a muddy spring..."

This reads to me like a description of a human (Dhul Qarnain) reaching the western-most part of his land to find it was a 'muddy' body of water. Do you think any person reading this verse thinks that the Sun physically goes into a muddy pool?

node88 wrote:This verse further suggests that the sun is orbiting around the earth.

Koran 36:40 "It is not for Sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit."

I can't see how you get from the above descriptions that celestial bodies have 'fixed' orbits and don't crash into each other - nor do I see where it says that the sun orbits the earth - it just says it has an orbit.

This is an incredible statement to come out of Arabia 1500 years ago - and again, literally has been proved true by scientific progress.

node88 wrote:Ure probably gonna interpretate that in a totally different way than me, but compare these verses to the one in the scientific miracles site. Isnt these verses clearer than many of the ones on that site? But i guess u see what u want to see, but i suppose it isnt very convincing to most people thats not muslim though.

I don't expect people to be convinced, but I would hope that objections are limited to facts and not propaganda. From the above, at worst you could argue that these are luck predictions that have been proved correct by science, or that they are sufficiently general that they cannot be 'proved wrong'. What cannot be disputed is that they haven't been proved wrong by science.

However, at the end of the day the Quran is not a manual on physics, but a religious book which contains God's final law to mankind and contains the literal word of God (as claimed by the book itself), and one of the logical features of such a book (if the claims are true) is that it should not contain contradictions, or facts which later proved to be wrong or contrary to science.

I will look up the reference to the ribs - but I note with satisfaction that the translations you have given prove the point of this thread magnificently - I thank you for this.

node88 wrote:Im sure that if there was a scientific miracle site a thousand years ago when ppl believed that the earth was flat, those last two verses wud be hailed as miracles. Its all about interpretation but its hardly convincing and definatly not miracles.

People's hearts are not moved by miracles or scientific prophecies. This just a fact. It would be a hollow faith to just follow something because it is amazing - David Copperfield will be considered a 'god' if that was the case

node88 wrote:And about the words used, Ill have to agree with u, of course theres a barrier to how much ppl cudve understood back then. Explaining the internet to a 700th century man wudve been impossible. But we are able to teach kids without any prior education many of those things (listed at the miracles site) quite easily. How come god cant explain it better than this. Chewed substance = an embryo? Even I can come up with a better explanation than that.

Why choose one of the meanings 'chewed substance' when another i.e. 'blood clot' is a better fit in the context? You gave this meaning above ... did you not read what you posted?

How better will you describe a ball of cells of an early fertilized egg (zygote) - how is it NOT like a 'clot of blood'?

You say you can come up with a better explanation - please let us hear it.

Cheers,
Shafique

The fact that man is created from sperm has been well known way before muhammeds time. Contraceptives was used in ancient greece and in the roman empire, usually by putting animal intestine over the penis to stop the sperm. Its not exactly rocket science to figure that out, and im pretty sure that the pagans living around muhammed also had that knowledge from before.

The reason to why i choosed embryo = chewed substance is because of this, "..We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)". Earlier in the text it says that alaqah means blood clot. Im not arabic speaking but i assumed that mudghah dint mean blood clot as well. But alrite, "We made the blood clot into a blood clot" (?).

About the sun and the muddy spring, ure right it can be interpretated in both ways. But how can someone reach the setting place of the sun, the sun doesnt settle at all, or it settles everywhere depending on where u are. Its not like its a place u reach. But lets leave that, I remembered that verse to be more than just that, something about the mud starting to boil and making noise when the sun settled in it. But Ive been unable to find it so I suppose its just my memory playing tricks with me.


About the orbits, this is what i meant with the interpretation. To me it says that the moon and the sun each have their own orbit around the earth. But u suggest that its refering to the suns orbit around our galaxy? Btw how come the koran can be interpretated in so many different ways? Isnt it suposed to be clear?

And u say that the koran doesnt contain any contradictions, but theres many of them in there. Muslims Ive spoken to say thats cause Islam evolved and it had to be easy on its followers in the beginning during the transfer period or wtv to call it. But there is contradictions in it. And I dont see what those stuff are doin in there at all, the book is supposed to be laws for an eternity, why is there stuff in there that only applied to people during a few years more than a thousand years ago? Why dint they removed it from there after the message was completed? And how come its special laws for muhammed in the holy book? Its supposed to be for all people for all time, why waste space on muhammeds special laws, when they cudve used that space to explain embrylogoly with better words than chewed substance for example.

And the explanation to the drop created between the ribs and backbone, I just dont buy it. Its turning and twisting words to fit with todays science. Of course it is possible to interpretate it that way, but i think its pretty damn far off compared to the interpretation i did of it. The whole thing about how a baby is created is pretty flawed, in the hadiths theres many more examples of muhammeds lacking knowledge in the matter, but lets concentrate on the koran for now to make it easier. But if u have time, please look it up in arabic and share with me, im not arabic speaking as i said but it feels as if non-muslims translate it in a way that suits their points while muslims translate it in a way that suits theirs.

I never said that the verse stating man being created from sperm was a scientific miracle of the Quran - and the Quran itself doesn't make this a big point, in context the verse is saying that man should ponder from whence he came...

As for the Quran being clear - well, we don't have to speculate on this point, the Quran itself clarifies. It is written in clear language - pure Arabic - but contains verses which are self-evident and others which are not so clear and subject to interpretation:

Chapter 3 (Aal-e-`Imran): Verse 7

He it is who has sent down to thee the Book; in it there are verses that are firm and decisive in meaning - they are the basis of the Book - and there are others that are susceptible of different interpretations. But those in whose hearts is perversity pursue such thereof as are susceptible of different interpretations, seeking to cause discord and seeking wrong interpretations of it. And none knows its right interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge; they say, 'We believe in it; the whole is from our Lord.' - And none take heed except those gifted with understanding -


Chapter 41 (Ha Mim Al-Sajdah): Verse 44

And if We had made it a Qur'an in a foreign tongue, they, surely, would have said, 'Why have not its verses been made clear? What! a foreign tongue and an Arab Prophet?' Say, 'It is a guidance and a healing for those who believe.' But as to those who believe not, there is a deafness in their ears and to them it is blindness. They are, as it were, being called from a far-off place.


Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:I never said that the verse stating man being created from sperm was a scientific miracle of the Quran - and the Quran itself doesn't make this a big point, in context the verse is saying that man should ponder from whence he came...

As for the Quran being clear - well, we don't have to speculate on this point, the Quran itself clarifies. It is written in clear language - pure Arabic - but contains verses which are self-evident and others which are not so clear and subject to interpretation:

Chapter 3 (Aal-e-`Imran): Verse 7

He it is who has sent down to thee the Book; in it there are verses that are firm and decisive in meaning - they are the basis of the Book - and there are others that are susceptible of different interpretations. But those in whose hearts is perversity pursue such thereof as are susceptible of different interpretations, seeking to cause discord and seeking wrong interpretations of it. And none knows its right interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge; they say, 'We believe in it; the whole is from our Lord.' - And none take heed except those gifted with understanding -


Chapter 41 (Ha Mim Al-Sajdah): Verse 44

And if We had made it a Qur'an in a foreign tongue, they, surely, would have said, 'Why have not its verses been made clear? What! a foreign tongue and an Arab Prophet?' Say, 'It is a guidance and a healing for those who believe.' But as to those who believe not, there is a deafness in their ears and to them it is blindness. They are, as it were, being called from a far-off place.


Cheers,
Shafique

I never said u claimed it to be a miracle, u called it impressive and that science dint confirm it until much later. And i was just hinting that it isnt very incredible at all since its been known for a pretty long time.

I still dont see how the second verse is incredible either.

We have the drop, which as i said earlier was something commonly known for ages.

Then theres the blood clot, which also is something that was believed to happen long before muhammed came up with the idea. Women have their period once a month, then it stops when the pregnancy occurs, ppl used to believe that what didnt come out started to form the baby, a blood clot. Nothing miraculous about that.

Then we got the chewed substance. And chewed substance isnt a very spot on description really, a chewed substance can look a thousand different ways. Depending on what u eat, how long u chew, how u chew etc. I can form all kind of different things with a gum, as they have done on that site. Its hardly a miracle.


As for the koran claryfying itself. I dont see the point of it. Why not write it clear to begin with. Why are only those "gifted with understandind" supposed to get what it means. It only creates confusion. Its pretty important stuff we are talking about here, burning in hell for an eternity or goin to heaven. Why not make it as a law book that everyone could understand. And why give man the gift of thinking and doubting and then give them a book to follow that can be doubted. Its stupid. Only points to the koran not being divine and someone making a fail safe way of securing possible errors by saying the doubting people only interpretates it the wrong way. Why make it interpretetable to begin with.

And arabic being a clear language? Written arabic isnt very clear afaik, especially not at muhammeds time. No wowels just the base of the words, which means the same written word cudve meant many different things. But i guess u as an arabic speaker know more about that than me.

Neways, I saw that u skipped some of my questions. I hope u get time to answer them as well.

Cheers

Thanks Shafique for your explanation

I invite eveybody to read about THE MIRACLE OF IRON

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_30.html

and more

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html

uaebadoo wrote:Thanks Shafique for your explanation

I invite eveybody to read about THE MIRACLE OF IRON

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_30.html

and more

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html

I dont even know were to begin. Do u honestly consider that to be a miracle? "sent down" is a pretty common word in religious scriptures, since god is somehow believed to be above. And Iron was the most important metal in muhammeds time too, no iron = no weapons. But it cud be used for lots of other stuff too, frying pans or wtv. It feels like u are misusing the word miracle here. Infact all atoms on earth comes from space, its not like they have been here for an eternity. And all elements except hydrogen was once formed in the stars. There is however radioactive decay of heavier elements that creates new elements here on earth too, and that includes Iron.