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I had an argument with my friend the other day because he was insisting that if somebody holds a passport from UK,USA,CANADA,AUSTRALIA and EU then they get a high paying job regardless of any other qualifications passport according to him serves a lot in finding a high paying job!???

What do you think?

I agree with your friend, that happens in most companies. In the UAE, either that or a UAE passport

Yes it's true. Only those who didn't experience this kind of discrimination would disagree- mainly those from the countries you mentioned.

everyone knows it but they just dont want to admit it, i am a UAE national and i know how the system is in this country, anyone who worked/lived in Dubai should know that this is how it works..

Maybe they just like to think that they are the best so they say that there is no discrimination, they might like it,..

no offence guys, im just saying what i think..

Yup, when I came to Dubai I just threw my Canadian passport at my job interviewer which made him bow down and offer me a position as Vice President of the company.
I angrily replied that, as a Canadian, I would accept nothing less than a job as CEO, to which he promptly apologized for his rudeness and gave me the position. He then offered to come to my house and do my laundry (which is also a normal service provided to holders of US, Canadian, EU etc. passports).

hamadl wrote:everyone knows it but they just dont want to admit it, i am a UAE national and i know how the system is in this country, anyone who worked/lived in Dubai should know that this is how it works..

Maybe they just like to think that they are the best so they say that there is no discrimination, they might like it,..

no offence guys, im just saying what i think..

If a company can find someone from a country where wages are cheaper, and that person can do the same job, they do it. Why do you think companies in America, US, Canada, UK etc outsourced all of their manufacturing overseas?

A company that chooses to employ someone for twice the price of what it should cost, isn't going to be able to compete...

If a company here decides that the locals don't have the experience to perform that particular role, then they will go for another option.

Also, remember that it takes a certain amount of $$ to lure foreign talent into Dubai, why the hell would we come here for less money than what we would make back home, when we have better beaches, services, medical facilities and our familes.

Face it.....80% of Dubai is made up by expats, and we don't come here for the lifestyle.

ur frend is a 100% rite

Medvezhonok wrote:Yup, when I came to Dubai I just threw my Canadian passport at my job interviewer which made him bow down and offer me a position as Vice President of the company.
I angrily replied that, as a Canadian, I would accept nothing less than a job as CEO, to which he promptly apologized for his rudeness and gave me the position. He then offered to come to my house and do my laundry (which is also a normal service provided to holders of US, Canadian, EU etc. passports).

^^Not too far from the truth, although the details have been smudged.

Also, immigration-liberal Canada are not AS valuable as other Western countries, since the employers have occassionally been disappointed to see a Christian Canada-settled Indian guy show up for a job interview based on the passport, as some have written in the papers.

As Sage would say =

Al Jon wrote:

hamadl wrote:everyone knows it but they just dont want to admit it, i am a UAE national and i know how the system is in this country, anyone who worked/lived in Dubai should know that this is how it works..

Maybe they just like to think that they are the best so they say that there is no discrimination, they might like it,..

no offence guys, im just saying what i think..

If a company can find someone from a country where wages are cheaper, and that person can do the same job, they do it. Why do you think companies in America, US, Canada, UK etc outsourced all of their manufacturing overseas?

A company that chooses to employ someone for twice the price of what it should cost, isn't going to be able to compete...

If a company here decides that the locals don't have the experience to perform that particular role, then they will go for another option.

Also, remember that it takes a certain amount of $$ to lure foreign talent into Dubai, why the hell would we come here for less money than what we would make back home, when we have better beaches, services, medical facilities and our familes.

Face it.....80% of Dubai is made up by expats, and we don't come here for the lifestyle.

I agree with most of your points, but:

Im not saying that UAE nationals built dubai or that expats dont deserve it, UAE nationals get paid better (that is a fact since we are in UAE), but out of the expats, certain nationalities get paid better and companies do go for those nationalities if they find them..

why do they do it? certain nationalities would get a ban for 6 months if they leave their job to join another, so they would stay and not look for another job.

Is it right? NO, its not (in my opinion) but thats the way it is..

I can only really speculate on the industry I know well which is telecoms.

Now I know that a lot of Europeans (and US & Canadian) will tell a company what to do with a job offer if they can make more money back home without the stresses of Dubai. They just won't accept as there is a lot of work around.

I recently put a recruitment clerk in touch with a colleague and he simply said he would no way consider the offer as the hassle of selling up and moving across the world were just not worth it.

Where as a lot of workers from South Asia will say 'Yes'. As someone who has tried to recruit I have seen this first hand - and a company is not likely to say 'You know if you ask for more, we may well give it to you, go on its worth a try!'.

However, without sounding bleak things are slowly changing. As I say I only know the IT / Telecoms sector - but Bangalore is booming and Salary levels for admins, developers, qa testers etc are increasing at quite a rate. We find it hard to keep people as there is a large pool of companies employing.

Where as Dubai salaries rarely rise inline with inflation (rents, and costs of living). So a lot of people are realising they can do better back at home.

Its got that way for me now.

yes it does...unfortunately. with my eastern euro passport, unless i get lucky, ill never have the same salary as a western, regardless how much experience i have or how many languages i speak.

jabbajabba wrote:However, without sounding bleak things are slowly changing. As I say I only know the IT / Telecoms sector - but Bangalore is booming and Salary levels for admins, developers, qa testers etc are increasing at quite a rate. We find it hard to keep people as there is a large pool of companies employing.

Where as Dubai salaries rarely rise inline with inflation (rents, and costs of living). So a lot of people are realising they can do better back at home..

That is correct. It is also correct that a lot of Indians who come here accept low salaries, although I can sympathise that circumstances drive them to accept anything they get. But sadly this reduces the value of Indians who actually are looking for higher pay. Multiple sides to this thing.

raidah wrote:yes it does...unfortunately. with my eastern euro passport, unless i get lucky, ill never have the same salary as a western, regardless how much experience i have or how many languages i speak.

Thats because, in engineering for example, you are unlikely to have reached the educational standards that a Western European country would provide or have worked on large international projects (due to lack of large Eastern European companies).

Now I have worked with a few Eastern European engineers, and they were great at their job. They also got paid appropriately for it. Often companies would rather pay a premium for a certain standard than to take a risk, so in some respects I agree with you.

But hey, look at the prosperity joining the EU has done for the East....growth rates of double the rest of Western Europe.

gtmash wrote:

jabbajabba wrote:However, without sounding bleak things are slowly changing. As I say I only know the IT / Telecoms sector - but Bangalore is booming and Salary levels for admins, developers, qa testers etc are increasing at quite a rate. We find it hard to keep people as there is a large pool of companies employing.

Where as Dubai salaries rarely rise inline with inflation (rents, and costs of living). So a lot of people are realising they can do better back at home..

That is correct. It is also correct that a lot of Indians who come here accept low salaries, although I can sympathise that circumstances drive them to accept anything they get. But sadly this reduces the value of Indians who actually are looking for higher pay. Multiple sides to this thing.

With a capacity of a billion low skilled workers they are hardly going to be able to set themselves a salary which is significantly better than back home...supply exceed demand I'm afraid. They are most likely getting paid more than they do back home, and if not, perhaps unemployment is too high back home.

hamadl wrote:Im not saying that UAE nationals built dubai or that expats dont deserve it, UAE nationals get paid better (that is a fact since we are in UAE)

Thats why we don't employ any. They demand a too high price for their skills.

hamadl wrote:, but out of the expats, certain nationalities get paid better and companies do go for those nationalities if they find them..

In some cases yes, however if a certain nationality is more expensive its often because they tend to have a certain skillset. QS's are much more common in the UK than in Australia, so we employ them from the UK. Since it usually takes more $$ to lure someone from the UK, thats the asking price. For other more general engineering work, there are more Aussies for example.

There seem to be fewer American expats because they get double taxed (except Dubai), but they still have to pay tax back home, so there is no tax advantage to working here.

hamadl wrote:why do they do it? certain nationalities would get a ban for 6 months if they leave their job to join another, so they would stay and not look for another job.

That must be if you work for a local company. I have no idea about that, since I work for a foreign company. If someone offered me double to leave my company, I'd consider it, but I also value the relationship I've developed with my current employer. Not everything is about money.

I totally agree with that, thats if you are happy at work..

Al Jon wrote:With a capacity of a billion low skilled workers they are hardly going to be able to set themselves a salary which is significantly better than back home...supply exceed demand I'm afraid. They are most likely getting paid more than they do back home, and if not, perhaps unemployment is too high back home.

You are right on every count except the first one. There aren't a "billion" low-skilled workers in India. I've been in every popular education system (except UAE gov school) available here, and I can solidly say Indian high school kids are much smarter at theoretical knowledge than any Brit or American kid at the same level.

While not everyone there gets to go to college in India, the ones that come out are some of the smartest people on the planet. Why do you think so many doctors on TV are portrayed as Indians (barring the shows which actually ARE about good-looking Caucasian doctors)? But you are right in that there is oversupply and many come here to work cheap.

gtmash wrote:You are right on every count except the first one. There aren't a "billion" low-skilled workers in India. I've been in every popular education system (except UAE gov school) available here, and I can solidly say Indian high school kids are much smarter at theoretical knowledge than any Brit or American kid at the same level.

While not everyone there gets to go to college in India, the ones that come out are some of the smartest people on the planet. Why do you think so many doctors on TV are portrayed as Indians (barring the shows which actually ARE about good-looking Caucasian doctors)? But you are right in that there is oversupply and many come here to work cheap.

I am not suggesting that India is purely made up of low-cost labour, I'm suggesting with exagerated 'billion', that most of the Indians coming here to do low cost jobs (driving, construction etc) have plenty of replacements should they try to push the salary up above its natural rate (somewhat above India's but not by much is my guess). My point still stands.

As to the point you are making, I'm not quite sure what it is. Are you suggesting that the Indian education system is better than that of the West (in which case, why is the netflow of educational migrants from India, rather than to India), or are you suggesting that Indian people are naturally more intelligent?

In terms of your observation of the Indians that 'make it'...my observation is that your average Joe back home that see's an immigrant whether they are from India, China, Vietnam or any other 3rd world country...they are often likely to be above average in determination, intelligence and capable of great things. In short, the kind of people who are likely to make it outside of their country in the first place.

That doesn't make your average Indian / Chinese / Vietnamese more talented than average, it makes your average Indian / Chinese / Vietnamese IMMIGRANT more talented.

Al Jon wrote:

gtmash wrote:You are right on every count except the first one. There aren't a "billion" low-skilled workers in India. I've been in every popular education system (except UAE gov school) available here, and I can solidly say Indian high school kids are much smarter at theoretical knowledge than any Brit or American kid at the same level.

While not everyone there gets to go to college in India, the ones that come out are some of the smartest people on the planet. Why do you think so many doctors on TV are portrayed as Indians (barring the shows which actually ARE about good-looking Caucasian doctors)? But you are right in that there is oversupply and many come here to work cheap.

I am not suggesting that India is purely made up of low-cost labour, I'm suggesting with exagerated 'billion', that most of the Indians coming here to do low cost jobs (driving, construction etc) have plenty of replacements should they try to push the salary up above its natural rate (somewhat above India's but not by much is my guess). My point still stands.

As to the point you are making, I'm not quite sure what it is. Are you suggesting that the Indian education system is better than that of the West (in which case, why is the netflow of educational migrants from India, rather than to India), or are you suggesting that Indian people are naturally more intelligent?

In terms of your observation of the Indians that 'make it'...my observation is that your average Joe back home that see's an immigrant whether they are from India, China, Vietnam or any other 3rd world country...they are often likely to be above average in determination, intelligence and capable of great things. In short, the kind of people who are likely to make it outside of their country in the first place.

That doesn't make your average Indian / Chinese / Vietnamese more talented than average, it makes your average Indian / Chinese / Vietnamese IMMIGRANT more talented.

Well, I wasn't talking about bus drivers in the first place. But since you absolutely refuse to believe that 3rd world countries can have better education than the West without trying it all out like I have, there's no point continuing with this argument.

gtmash wrote:While not everyone there gets to go to college in India, the ones that come out are some of the smartest people on the planet. Why do you think so many doctors on TV are portrayed as Indians (barring the shows which actually ARE about good-looking Caucasian doctors)? But you are right in that there is oversupply and many come here to work cheap.

I believe that indians are the same as any other nationality. Yes, there are genious indians, but there are ones that dont even pass school, and there are avarage ones (just like any other nationality).

Why do you think so many doctors on TV are portrayed as Indians? maybe most of the doctors are indians, but should we look at numbers or percentages?

gtmash wrote:Well, I wasn't talking about bus drivers in the first place. But since you absolutely refuse to believe that 3rd world countries can have better education than the West without trying it all out like I have, there's no point continuing with this argument.

That's a pretty bold claim, which would have a shred of credibility if the top Indian university wasn't ranked 674th in the world.

Here is a list of the top 100 universities as published in the Economist:
http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2007/ARWU2007_Top100.htm

And here is the top 100 distributed by country:
http://www.webometrics.info/Top_100_by_Country.html

There is no doubt that Indian people can be intelligent - as proven by the rock solid argument that most doctors on TV are Indian - but that in no way infers that the educational system of such 3rd world countries is superior.

gtmash wrote:Well, I wasn't talking about bus drivers in the first place. But since you absolutely refuse to believe that 3rd world countries can have better education than the West without trying it all out like I have, there's no point continuing with this argument.

What Medvezhonok said.

You are the one who made the claim, so why don't you back it up with more than an opinion.

Also, you didn't answer my original question. Since I gather from your response, that you believe the Indian education system is better, why is it that more Indians travel to the US / Australia / UK than Americans / Australians / Brits travel to India for the purpose of education?

Medvezhonok wrote:Here is a list of the top 100 universities as published in the Economist:
http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2007/ARWU2007_Top100.htm

You sure about that;

'Copyright © 2007 Institute of Higher Education, Shanghai Jiao Tong University, All Rights Reserved.'

jabbajabba wrote:You sure about that;

'Copyright © 2007 Institute of Higher Education, Shanghai Jiao Tong University, All Rights Reserved.'

Yup.

The Academic Ranking of World Universities[1] is compiled by Shanghai Jiao Tong University and includes major institutes of higher education ranked according to a formula that took into account alumni winning Nobel Prizes and Fields Medals (10 percent), staff winning Nobel Prizes and Fields Medals (20 percent), "highly-cited researchers in 21 broad subject categories" (20 percent), articles published in Nature and Science (20 percent), the Science Citation Index, Social Sciences Citation Index, and Arts and Humanities Citation Index (20 percent) and the size of the institution (10 percent). The results have been cited by The Economist magazine [2].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_R ... iversities

Is it safe to say then that westerners are preferred because it i assumed that they have better education- and not because of the fact that they're western (and white)?

Then how do you explain the occasional western-educated asian who got turned down from the job because the would-be employer did not expect an asian?

yujinn wrote:Is it safe to say then that westerners are preferred because it i assumed that they have better education- and not because of the fact that they're western (and white)?

Whoever said westerners are preferred? Its simply that if a job requires a foreign education or foreign experience, that its most likely to result in a westerner.

yujinn wrote:Then how do you explain the occasional western-educated asian who got turned down from the job because the would-be employer did not expect an asian?

That may happen here, but its far less likely to happen in the US or Australia. I'm not saying that discrimation doesn't exist back home, that would be naive. In my experience, my company employs mostly Brits and Australians as foreigners. Those foreigners include Indians, Chinese, Malaysians, Filapinos and Indonesians amoungst them. They received the majority of their education however, from Aus / UK.

I have had almost as many western education asian colleagues than european colleagues.

I have seen the discrimination you are talking about in Taiwan however. Ironically its Asian cultures who are more likely to discriminate against their own.

Medvezhonok wrote:

jabbajabba wrote:You sure about that;

'Copyright © 2007 Institute of Higher Education, Shanghai Jiao Tong University, All Rights Reserved.'

Yup.

The Academic Ranking of World Universities[1] is compiled by Shanghai Jiao Tong University and includes major institutes of higher education ranked according to a formula that took into account alumni winning Nobel Prizes and Fields Medals (10 percent), staff winning Nobel Prizes and Fields Medals (20 percent), "highly-cited researchers in 21 broad subject categories" (20 percent), articles published in Nature and Science (20 percent), the Science Citation Index, Social Sciences Citation Index, and Arts and Humanities Citation Index (20 percent) and the size of the institution (10 percent). The results have been cited by The Economist magazine [2].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_R ... iversities

Can't argue with that

Might as well stick my oar in for a laugh.

There are clearly intelligent people from 3rd world countries, and often they go to great lengths to show how educated they are and get a bachelors, masters, PhD and anything going to stand out. Good on them. If you go to the UK or US, you're likely to get paid on a par with everyone else if you really are that intelligent. I would disagree degrees obtained in India, China and the like can compete with the West, as simply the best Indian and Chinese professors head West to work alongside other people from all over the world.

There are 2 elements I'd like to throw in the mix, these are valid observations I've had from being involved in recruitment here.

- People from poor countries often greatly overstate their talents. Yes, you need to sell yourself, but lying creates a really bad impression and makes recruiters think twice the next time they see a similar CV. I've had such people write on their CV they were CEO of a corporation in their home country, when you press them for details they worked the till at their mum's coffee shop and handed out flyers in the street.

- Canvassing offices by walking in unannounced or spam faxing the office when you have good qualifications. Again, recruiters think you're lying and desperate.

- The most important of these may cause some controversy but it true. A whole lot of people - I'd even go as far as to say the majority - just cannot take a decision or accept responsibility. There are all sorts of cultural drivers I don't understand, but even well educated people will simply agree with the most senior person in the room and not act until they are given a list of things to do. It's mind boggling and infuriating given they'll have told you something else when that person wasn't in the room. Why people often look for Westerners in management positions is because they have the guts to stand up for what they believe in even if it upsets people in the room. That's how businesses should be run! Some westerners are guilty of this to, but not to such an extent. The net impact of this seems to be that companies hire a ring of cheap "yes men" with a few sprinklings of expat managers to really make the decisions that count.

So, in short, you can be as educated as you like, if you don't have the balls to implement that knowledge then you'll never get anywhere.

My thoughts, discuss.

Thats certainly a typical cultural trait in Asia, from Japan, Taiwan, China Malaysia etc.

Not had enough experience with Indians / Arabs to know if that is common or not. But I agree with your observation. I think accepting responsibility and honesty are more highly regarded in our society, whereas, social harmony is the no.1 factor in Asia.

To the moron mod who moved this, don't you think it would have been better under expat help? Especially since there's a dozen threads of this nature there already?