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hi ... ok first off, the search didn't get me any relevant results...so here goes.

i have a friend who was offered a job in dubai, he accepted the offer and his visa (EMPLOYMENT II) was issued by the company in december 06 (allowed to enter until end jan 07) but he didnt join as the company changed the terms just as he was about to leave for dubai.

now he has another better offer from a firm in dubai, but when they tried applying for a visa, it got rejected. this company is not giving any details of why it got rejected, but has told him to sort out any issues himself and they will try for the visa again.

Now, he never entered the UAE at all, so what are his options and what is the solution?

the old company is asking for money to "solve the problem".
Does he need an NOC from the previous company? or from dnrd?

Is this a labour ban? if yes, will it just get solved automatically if he just waits it out till 6 months of his previous visa's expiry?

difficult logic here (on the ban) - since he never entered UAE!

thanks for taxing your grey cells!
~Zaid

zaidinamdar wrote:hi ... ok first off, the search didn't get me any relevant results...so here goes.

i have a friend who was offered a job in dubai, he accepted the offer and his visa (EMPLOYMENT II) was issued by the company in december 06 (allowed to enter until end jan 07) but he didnt join as the company changed the terms just as he was about to leave for dubai.

now he has another better offer from a firm in dubai, but when they tried applying for a visa, it got rejected. this company is not giving any details of why it got rejected, but has told him to sort out any issues himself and they will try for the visa again.

Now, he never entered the UAE at all, so what are his options and what is the solution?

the old company is asking for money to "solve the problem".
Does he need an NOC from the previous company? or from dnrd?

Is this a labour ban? if yes, will it just get solved automatically if he just waits it out till 6 months of his previous visa's expiry?

difficult logic here (on the ban) - since he never entered UAE!

thanks for taxing your grey cells!
~Zaid

I don't have all the answers: wait for dxbsoul.

But it seems to me that the best solution is to pay the old company to "solve the problem" - so long as it is a reasonable amount. Think about it: that company spent money to obtain your visa ("your friend") and do all the adminstrative work so it would only be fair that they be reimbursed. Even if you did not enter the country the "ban" is on obtaining a visa so that a "NOC" would be helpful - since you already have a "visa" your new application was rejected (they use computers for that stuff nowadays!). More technically, you are not an "employee" unless you have an employment contract (and I imagine you do have that as the original visa was processed). The old company can give you a hard type regardless of the "technicalities".

The moral of the story: think before you accept any offer. I think you might have to pay something. It will cost you either way.

Good luck.

My buddy worked here on a visit visa. He quit just as the crappy company got him a 3-year proper visa. He was asked to compensate Dhs 6000 for it. They didn't ban him. I think that is the going rate for 3-year visas, unless your company wants more for "mental anguish" oe something.

Concord wrote:

But it seems to me that the best solution is to pay the old company to "solve the problem" - so long as it is a reasonable amount. ........ The old company can give you a hard type regardless of the "technicalities".

thanks for the info...

This guy has already paid close to 1000AED and they are asking him for another 1500AED. - & he's scared of losing his money!

You mentioned the old company can still give him a hard time... are there any further issues that the old company can still create?

his visa expired for entry in late January, so if we + 6 months, will he be a free bird after July??

ps... concs... it's really not me!

zaidinamdar wrote:i have a friend who was offered a job in dubai, he accepted the offer and his visa (EMPLOYMENT II) was issued by the company in december 06 (allowed to enter until end jan 07) but he didnt join as the company changed the terms just as he was about to leave for dubai.

now he has another better offer from a firm in dubai, but when they tried applying for a visa, it got rejected. this company is not giving any details of why it got rejected, but has told him to sort out any issues himself and they will try for the visa again.

Now, he never entered the UAE at all, so what are his options and what is the solution?

the old company is asking for money to "solve the problem".
Does he need an NOC from the previous company? or from dnrd?

Is this a labour ban? if yes, will it just get solved automatically if he just waits it out till 6 months of his previous visa's expiry?

~Zaid

Ok Zaid here goes....The reason your friends new company cannot file for a visa is beacuse the earlier visa is still active on the system

That old one has to be removed from the system before they can apply for a new visa. The old visa should really be valid for only 60days and then it lapses but doesnt get removed from the system.

Your new company would have to go to the immigration to sort this out.

Cheers

Also even if the old visa expires, expired visas still have to be cancelled and taken out of the system.

I don't think 1500Dhs is an awful lot to pay to sort it out. The company could have charged him the 5000 - 6000Dhs for a wasted visa.

zaidinamdar wrote:

Concord wrote:

But it seems to me that the best solution is to pay the old company to "solve the problem" - so long as it is a reasonable amount. ........ The old company can give you a hard type regardless of the "technicalities".

thanks for the info...

This guy has already paid close to 1000AED and they are asking him for another 1500AED. - & he's scared of losing his money!

You mentioned the old company can still give him a hard time... are there any further issues that the old company can still create?

his visa expired for entry in late January, so if we + 6 months, will he be a free bird after July??

ps... concs... it's really not me!

by "hard time" I meant if he/she did not pay. Just like when you pay for anything make sure you are covered. Can't tell you how to do it but I would write a letter. "Dear company as agreed in addition to the 1,000.00 dirhams paid to you on XXX enclosed is my check number xxxx in the amount of XXXX, in payment for you canceling my visa XXXX and providing me with a NOC letter, etc. etc." whatever you agreed to with them....

P.S. my bill is on the way...

Chocoholic wrote: The company could have charged him the 5000 - 6000Dhs for a wasted visa.

On what basis?

Concord wrote:

Chocoholic wrote: The company could have charged him the 5000 - 6000Dhs for a wasted visa.

On what basis?

Apparently that is what it costs for a 3-year visa. Can't say ti's inaccurate. Those thieves at Nakheel charge the same for 3-year investor visas.

Because they paid money for nothing. Many companies will make you pay the visa fees if you leave early.

Chocoholic wrote:Because they paid money for nothing. Many companies will make you pay the visa fees if you leave early.

I know that and said it in my post. I was refering to the amount 5K to 6K (gmash gave some explanation after).

The average visa costs a company around 5000 Dhs for each employee. There are still some companies that will make you pay the visa fees yourself.

Jeee! what a flurry of activity this morning, the weekend must be over

everyones a winner this morning. the reason is that there is still an active labour contract in the system, even if the residency visa has not been used.

the existing labour contract would have to be cancelled first. the ban would be imposed from the date that the labour contract is cancelled and is NOT based on the date of the residency visa.

the processing cost for a visa as well as a labour card (as well as the labour gaurentee) comes to about 5,000 AED per person.

now here is an interesting issue though. i think the employer may have only made application for the labour card on behalf othe the employee - quite possibly the paperwork is not yet completed. the final labour card and contract can only be registered once the employee has the positive results from their medical tests! obviously as he has not even entered the country yet, this could not have happened!!

additionally the full registed copy of the labour contract (the official one) has to be signed in person by the employee, this cannot be done by proxy. this would lead me to belive that processing on the application has started - but is in now way complete.

the long and short of it is that i also feel that it may be worth paying the employer to retract and cancell the contract - it is very difficult to try and work with the labour department if you are not even in the country!

sorry, another point.

make sure that all dealing with the company are by fax (not email), any agreement that is made should be in writing (on a fax) and signed and stamped by the company - else you may find that you are paying over money to a greedy PRO and not into the companies coffers!

emails are not accepted as legal documents where as facimile transmissions are. all official company documentation is to carry the official company stamp on it to be considered legal. remember the noc MUST be in arabic - english is not accpetable - this means that if you are not arabic speaking you need to get someone to translate it for you to ensure that it is correct.

the labour gaurentee paid by the employer is refundable to the employer, (or at best transferable to another new employee) - and for the purpous of your current situation should not be taken into account as part of the repayment to your "old employer"! don't let them try and tell you that they had to forefit it!
they would only forefit the gaurentee if you took up the position and absconded, or if on completion of the contract period you were unable to pay you own ticket home - that's when the gaurentee money is used.

thanks for all your replies... from the looks of it, i'll advise my friend to pay up.

1 follow up question:
as mentioned by dbxsoul, after paying up, the company will cancel the labour contract, this will commence the 6 mth ban - understood. Now if the old company issues an NOC (who is this noc addressed to? the empoyee or labour dept?) the new co. can process the visa. correct?

also from the replies, i understand that only the NOC is not sufficient, we need this cancellation too?

this seems to be the crux of the matter. in my opinion the labour contract has never been issued (due to the reasons i posted above), simply an application for a labour contract made on behalf of the employer and your friend.

i'm certainly not sure if the ban would be effected on this since the contract was nver officially concluded. this is the first time i have heard of any one in this situation. i cannot find anything regarding this specific situation in the labour law!

the other issue is that although there may be a labour ban placed (i'm not sure on this point), it is possible to pay the labour department to lift the ban - this in effect is a money generating scheme for the LD; they ban you, and then you can pay them (i think the going rate is about 5,000AED) to lift the ban so that you can work again within the ban period.

the noc is addressed to the labour department.
the new company will only be able to start processing the application once the previous application is cancelled.

the other item would be if your friend has another passport (with another pp number in it), the applications are posted on the basis of passport number, so if his new employer were to apply for a labour card using another passort (and passport number), the application would not be flagged!

..... where there is a will ...... there is a dead realative

dbxsoul wrote:this seems to be the crux of the matter. in my opinion the labour contract has never been issued (due to the reasons i posted above), simply an application for a labour contract made on behalf of the employer and your friend.

i'm certainly not sure if the ban would be effected on this since the contract was nver officially concluded. this is the first time i have heard of any one in this situation. i cannot find anything regarding this specific situation in the labour law!

the other issue is that although there may be a labour ban placed (i'm not sure on this point), it is possible to pay the labour department to lift the ban - this in effect is a money generating scheme for the LD; they ban you, and then you can pay them (i think the going rate is about 5,000AED) to lift the ban so that you can work again within the ban period.

the noc is addressed to the labour department.
the new company will only be able to start processing the application once the previous application is cancelled.

the other item would be if your friend has another passport (with another pp number in it), the applications are posted on the basis of passport number, so if his new employer were to apply for a labour card using another passort (and passport number), the application would not be flagged!

..... where there is a will ...... there is a dead realative

Isn't the Dhs 5k ban-lifting fee only valid on some categories of occupation? And isn't a 1-year ban placed in case a contract is broken, depending on if the company makes it known to the ministry? Just asking for clarification, since I think I read these things in the "Ask the Law" section of Gulf News.

yes you are right on both accounts.

the "catagory ban" and "ban exemption" rule fell into diss-use about 24 months back - although they were still only implemented under certain provisions. they will however take your proffesion into account when applying the 5000 "lifting fee" - for instance if you were employed as a labourer you chances are zero.

Article 128

A non-National worker, who abandons his work without a valid reason before the expiry of his definite term contract, may not, even with the employer's consent, take up other employment until the lapse of one year from the date on which he abandons his work. No other employer may knowingly recruit such worker or keep him in his service before the lapse of such period.

Article 129

A non-National, who notifies the employer of his desire to terminate his indefinite term contract but abandons his work before the expiry of the statutory period of notice, may not, even with the employer's consent, take up other employment until the lapse of one year from the date on which he abandons his work. No other employer may knowingly recruit such worker or keep him in his service before the lapse of such period.

Article 130

The provisions of Articles 128 and 129 shall not apply to a non-National worker who, before taking up other employment, obtains the approval of the Minister of Labour and Social Affairs based on the consent of the original employer.

Article 128 outlines the 1 year ban, article 130 is in effect the No Objection Certificate (NOC).

it stands to reason that if you break the contract, or abscond - you don't stand much chance of getting an NOC from your previous employer.

I think the above query though really realtes to the status of the labour contract, i've re-read the posting a few times, and in my mind cannot see that the contract was actually concluded!

dbxsoul wrote:I think the above query though really realtes to the status of the labour contract, i've re-read the posting a few times, and in my mind cannot see that the contract was actually concluded!

I just realized you are right. For there to be a valid contract, the dude must've signed something or the other while still living abroad. Unless the company forged his signature. Or is it possible to take out employment visas without an actual signed contract in place from before (I don't really know).

no, but they can make a provisonal application based on the information and no doubt passport copy that he provides - this is done sometimes to speed up the labour approval process. this is enough to enter it into the system. when he arrives can then enter on an employment visa and not a visit visa. on arrival he has to do his medical, and once the results are cleared sign his labour contract before final submission is made (and the labour card issued).

I think they may have also forked out for the employment visa on this basis; so they are actually out of pocket on two accounts (the labour application as well as the residency visa). this is probably why they want some kind of compensation!

that's why i said if he had a second passport the chances are he could get into the country as his new employer would simply apply using the new passport number (the old one would simply remain in the system until it expired or was cancelled) - this would be his cheapest and fastest option. then simply tell his ernstwhile employer that he is taking up a position in another country alltogether and is not going to replay any more money!