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I thought I'd share selected verses from the Quran.

Allah! There is no god but He,
-the Living,
the Self-subsisting,
Eternal.
No slumber can seize Him nor sleep.
His are all things in the heavens and on earth.
Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth?
He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth.
His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks.

And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

Allah is the Protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light.

Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones: from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be companions of the fire, to dwell therein (For ever).

Verses 255 to 257 of Chapter 2 of the Holy Quran. English translation by
Yusuf Ali.

No compulsion, just the implicit threat you'll burn in hell for eternity!

scot1870 wrote:No compulsion, just the implicit threat you'll burn in hell for eternity!

Ahh - but the Islamic concept of hell is not eternity!

But that is another kettle of fish altogether.

Hey - one more post until 1000... hmmm where shall I post next??


Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:

scot1870 wrote:No compulsion, just the implicit threat you'll burn in hell for eternity!

Ahh - but the Islamic concept of hell is not eternity!

But that is another kettle of fish altogether.

Hey - one more post until 1000... hmmm where shall I post next??


Cheers,
Shafique

To my thread at genchat.

In Concord's dog thread.

No compulsion, yet if you don't do things the islamic way you get screwed.

i.e: having sex before marriage = getting whipped.

With such punishments for things which are supposed to be completely up to the indivisual and his willing partner, you are forcing the islamic teachings on other muslims and non muslims who do not agree with your way or care about it.

PARANOID wrote:No compulsion, yet if you don't do things the islamic way you get screwed.

i.e: having love before marriage = getting whipped.

With such punishments for things which are supposed to be completely up to the indivisual and his willing partner, you are forcing the islamic teachings on other muslims and non muslims who do not agree with your way or care about it.

I feel sorry for you PARANOID. From your posts you seem to be a person who was brought up muslim but now have a major issue with the teachings and morality of Islam when it comes to s.e.xual relations.

I'm afraid that you will not be able to convince anyone who has a passing knowledge of religion that hom.o.se.xuality or fornication/adultery is something that can be condoned by a revealed religion. If you want to hold this against the religion - you are free to do so.

Most people in your apparent situation would just go out and do what they feel like doing and won't have any hang-ups about what other people are thinking. I've spoken with a number of Catholics who go around with a guilt-complex about not following Catholicism as much as their conscious would want them to, but you are one of the few 'muslims' who seem to share this trait.

You have as much chance of changing my considered views on fornication as a paedophile will have in trying to convince me that what he desires is natural and loving.

I hope you find peace with whatever path you choose.

Cheers,
Shafique

I've spoken with a number of Catholics who go around with a guilt-complex about not following Catholicism as much as their conscious would want them to, but you are one of the few 'muslims' who seem to share this trait.
Better a bit of guilt then joining a repressive death cult

Ahh - but the Islamic concept of hell is not eternity!

It sounds like it is:

Allah hath promised the hypocrites Men and women, and the rejecters(sic), of Faith, the fire of Hell: Therein shall they dwell: sufficient is it for them: for them is the curse of Allah, and an enduring punishment-- 9.68

According to dictionary.com, the definition of 'enduring' is--

1. lasting; permanent

valkyrie wrote:

Ahh - but the Islamic concept of hell is not eternity!

It sounds like it is:

Allah hath promised the hypocrites Men and women, and the rejecters(sic), of Faith, the fire of Hell: Therein shall they dwell: sufficient is it for them: for them is the curse of Allah, and an enduring punishment-- 9.68

According to dictionary.com, the definition of 'enduring' is--

1. lasting; permanent

I think shafique was talking about it in general, the verse you quoted is only speaking about hypocrites. There will be people in hell forever, but it is not same as current Christian concept of hell. People who don't know much about Islam usually mix the two. This link explains more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell#Islam

Another problem is that in Quran hell is not clearly spoken as eternal if you compare it to the statements given for heaven.

Eternal reward in heaven

It must be remembered that none could avoid the consequence of their deeds. The evil ones will thus not be able to escape the chastisement of the fire (Q2:167). This (non escaping) does not mean that sinners would remain eternally in hell without relief.

Most people assume that expressions and terms such as " khalideena fi ha ", " khulud ", " abada "... imply eternal reward in heaven as well as eternal punishment in hell. These words could be interpreted as "eternal" but could also imply "a long period of time" depending on the context. A detailed exposition of theses terms would not be appropriate here, but suffice it to consider the verse (Q11:107-109) where reference is made to the "long duration" of punishment in hell and the "long duration" of reward in heaven. The clear indication that heavenly reward is eternal while chastisement in hell is not, is clearly evidenced from the emphasis the Qur'an places on heavenly reward as " 'ataa an ghayra majdhudh " (unlimited volume and duration of reward) while no such expression is used regarding chastisement in hell.

Punishment in hell not eternal

The duration of punishment in hell is specifically expressed (Q78:22-24) through the term ahqaba , which lexicographers agree, clearly indicates a limited period, perhaps equivalent to a human lifetime. In a tradition documented in Bukhari, the holy Prophet (pbuh) is reported to have said that the inmates of hell will be set free and on the road to higher life. " Allah will command, BRING OUT OF THE FIRE ANY ONE IN WHOSE HEART THERE IS FAITH OR GOODNESS EVEN TO THE EXTENT OF A MUSTARD SEED. They will be taken out having burnt then they will be thrown into the river of life and will grow as seeds by the side of a river ."

Some sayings of the Prophet (pbuh) are explicit in asserting that every body shall eventually be taken out of hell and that hell will become redundant. In Kanzul 'Ummal we find the following statement of the Prophet : " Surely, a day will come over hell when it will be like a field of corn that has dried up after having flourished for a while. ". 'Abdullah bin Amr bin al-'As reports that the Prophet (pbuh) said; " There will come on hell a time when its doors will shut and none will be in it " (Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal).

Point to note: for hadiths authenticity is debatable.

I think shafique was talking about it in general, the verse you quoted is only speaking about hypocrites.

That's a rather wishy-washy response, as you can read for yourself the passage also refers to non Muslims i.e., 'rejectors of the Faith' as people who will spend an eternity in hell. So unless you have an esoteric definition of enduring that passage is straight forward. Moreover, the commentary on that passage states that: "Curse," here as elsewhere, is deprivation of grace and mercy, brought by the rejection of Allah by the Unbelievers. Which further shows that the passage is indeed referring to non Muslims.

It must be remembered that none could avoid the consequence of their deeds. The evil ones will thus not be able to escape the chastisement of the fire (Q2:167). This (non escaping) does not mean that sinners would remain eternally in hell without relief.

Here's what 2.167 really says-"...Thus will Allah show them (The fruits of) their deeds as (nothing but) regrets. Nor will there be a way for them out of the Fire."

In other words, that passage is ambiguous to the extent where two people can read it and take two extremely different meanings from it.

The duration of punishment in hell is specifically expressed (Q78:22-24)

78.23--"They will dwell therein for ages."

Not specifically expressed IMO.

Why worry about what's to come. Live in the now people.

valkyrie wrote:

I think shafique was talking about it in general, the verse you quoted is only speaking about hypocrites.

That's a rather wishy-washy response, as you can read for yourself the passage also refers to non Muslims i.e., 'rejectors of the Faith' as people who will spend an eternity in hell. Moreover, the commentary on that passage states that: "Curse," here as elsewhere, is deprivation of grace and mercy, brought by the rejection of Allah by the Unbelievers. Which further shows that the passage is indeed referring to non Muslims.

I stand corrected, the verse also referred to another group 'kuffar' which is translated as "rejectors of faith". There is misunderstanding over this word even among muslims. But it doesn't mean non-muslim in general according to the translator of the verse you are quoting. I'll make another thread for this.

valkyrie wrote:So unless you have an esoteric definition of enduring that passage is straight forward.

The problem I see is 'enduring' doesn't necessarily mean eternal or forever, it can also mean long-lasting or continuing without change for very long time but not necessarily forever depending on the context http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/enduring. Perhaps this word is closest to the concept about the duration of Hell given in Quran as there is no given duration of hell. It may or may not last forever, it is upto Allah. The following verses makes this clear:

Those who are wretched shall be in the Fire: There will be for them therein (nothing but) the heaving of sighs and sobs:They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as thy Lord willeth: for thy Lord is the (sure) accomplisher of what He planneth.
(011.107-108)
[Here are 3 other translations]
011.107
PICKTHAL: Abiding there so long as the heavens and the earth endure save for that which thy Lord willeth. Lo! thy Lord is Doer of what He will.
SHAKIR: Abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord please; surely your Lord is the mighty doer of what He intends.
KHAN & HILALI: They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord wills. Verily, your Lord is the Doer of whatsoever He intends (or wills).

Nowhere it says that it will never end as opposed to the statement about paradise:

011.108
YUSUFALI: And those who are blessed shall be in the Garden: They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as thy Lord willeth: a gift without break.
PICKTHAL: And as for those who will be glad (that day) they will be in the Garden, abiding there so long as the heavens and the earth endure save for that which thy Lord willeth: a gift unfailing.
SHAKIR: And as to those who are made happy, they shall be in the garden, abiding in it as long as the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord please; a gift which shall never be cut off.
KHAN & HILALI: And those who are blessed, they will be in Paradise, abiding therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord wills: a gift without an end.

Hadiths further clarify the issue that there will be people who will leave hell when their punishment is over, but that doesn't necessarily mean either that all people will leave hell.

[b]i believe NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION MEANS ............ THAT U HAVE THE RIGHT NOT TO ACCEPT ISLAM AND CONTINUE LIVING AS CHRISTIAN OR HINDU OR WHATEVER ... AFTER THE TRUE MESSAGE HAS BEEEN CONVEYED TO YOU.......... IT'S YOUR CHOICE AND U HAVE TOTAL CONTROL ON WHICH RELIGION U CHOOSE........ Allah knows best...

shafique wrote:I thought I'd share selected verses from the Quran.

Allah! There is no god but He,
-the Living, ... (For ever).

Verses 255 to 257 of Chapter 2 of the Holy Quran. English translation by
Yusuf Ali.

Spirituality and Religion

Every Religion in this world wants you to get rid of bad qualities at least from today for the admission into that religion which is practically impossible. The reason is that these bad qualities were grown like hills for the past millions of births. This small human life is insufficient even to move them, not to speak of removing them. People can control the bad qualities to some extent by their efforts. These bad qualities are frequently sparking in the minds of even the most pious sages. If one says that he is good and he is devoid of all the bad qualities, it only cheating others, which in turn is cheating oneself. Due to this practically impossible condition, for the religious admission, people have developed allergy towards any religion because the eligibility for admission is impractical.

The religious preachers have confused the whole situation by fusing religion and spiritualism. Religion is the context of GOD to establish peace and justice in this world. In this context, you must control your bad qualities so that you will not disturb the peace and justice and will not harm any good person in this world. If you disturb the world by your bad qualities, God will punish you. But, in this context, it is sufficient if you control the bad qualities since you cannot remove them. The Religion ends here. Some religions strictly end here without any spiritualism.

The spiritualism is the context in which you have to make efforts to reach God. In this context, you need not even control your bad qualities because, God has no personal objection towards your bad qualities. These bad qualities cannot be obstacles in any manner in this context. Moreover, when you turn these bad qualities towards the God, they become your helpers. Any quality whether good or bad, is created by God only to help you in reaching Him. If you realize the original aim of all these qualities, good or bad, why should you control these qualities, which are with you as a helper? No fool controls his helpers. So, any quality when involved in spiritualism is used for its original aim, it becomes a good quality. So all your qualities become good in spiritualism and you need not put any effort to remove or even control them. When the qualities are not used for their original purpose, they become bad qualities. Therefore, whatever qualities turned towards the world, are bad qualities. In this spiritualism, there is no need of any effort even to control these bad qualities.

Then, for what, our effort should be made? Our effort should be concentrated to achieve “Bhakthi” which is the love on God. “Bhakthi” is achieved and is grown by the knowledge of God. For example, you came to know that Bombay City exists. This is the knowledge of existence of Bombay. By this you want to see Bombay. As you know the details of Bombay more and more, your desire to see the city becomes more and more. Knowing details about the Bombay City is again the further knowledge. So, knowledge is directly proportional to desire. First Rukmini heard that there is Lord Krishna on this earth. As she heard more and more about Lord Krishna from Sage Narada, her love on Krishna increased enormously. Narada means he who gives knowledge. Therefore, ‘Jnana”(knowledge) generates and develops “Bhakthi (devotion)”. Due to Bhakthi, the Lord is attained. Gita says the same ‘ONLY BY BHAKTHI I AM ATTAINED’ (‘Bhaktya………’).