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This is an excerpt from Western Civilization Condemned By Itself by Maryam Jameelah (A Jewish convert to Islam in the 1970s).

Let it be known to all that we Muslims are not excessive in being modest, that we are not ashamed of our bodies or its physical functions. Sex is a natural and necessary function like eating, sleeping and going to the washroom. But it is incompatible with human dignity unless done in private. Now there is nothing wrong with answering the calls of nature, for if the body did not rid itself of its toxic waste products, it would soon die. Therefore going to the washroom is necessary and vital to the preservation of life. But when one answers his natural calls, he does it alone behind closed doors, is careful to clean himself and wash his hands afterwards. He doesn’t talk about it or brag about it in public, or write about it (except in medical works), much less display it in pictures in books and magazines, films and on television and if that was done, it would be dirty and obscene.

Islam is opposed to celibacy and subjugating passions by self-inflicted suffering and does not regard abstinence in itself as any virtue. Every Muslim is expected to marry soon after puberty and raise a family. Sex in the context of married love and parenthood is not only necessary but a positive virtue. If husband and wife derive physical pleasure from their intimacies, this is a good thing which helps strengthen the marriage bond, for if the couple were unsatisfied, this could menace their whole relationship and shatter family life to pieces. But we also maintain that sex belongs in the bedroom – not on the street. Public displays of nudity, promiscuity, eroticism, rapes, homosexuality and sodomy we declare without reservation as filthy, ing and degrading and that unrepentant trangressors deserve the harshest penalties society can inflict and the wrath of God in this world and the next.

Public displays of nudity, promiscuity, eroticism, rapes, homosexuality and sodomy we declare without reservation as filthy, ing and degrading and that unrepentant trangressors deserve the harshest penalties society can inflict and the wrath of God in this world and the next.

Why is God offended by Nudity to the point that someone should suffer the harshest penalties society can conflict and his wrath for eternity?

Did God create Man and Women and then post creation decide 'Put some clothes on now or I will have to punish you in this world and the next. In fact lets have society hang you from the gallows'.

What a load of nonsense.

Nudity is wrong in every sense-
Would you like your mother, daughter, sister to be nude? Clearly, NO since human nature abhors it.
And who changed the title of my post-

jabbajabba wrote:

Public displays of nudity, promiscuity, eroticism, rapes, homosexuality and sodomy we declare without reservation as filthy, ing and degrading and that unrepentant trangressors deserve the harshest penalties society can inflict and the wrath of God in this world and the next.

Why is God offended by Nudity to the point that someone should suffer the harshest penalties society can conflict and his wrath for eternity?

Did God create Man and Women and then post creation decide 'Put some clothes on now or I will have to punish you in this world and the next. In fact lets have society hang you from the gallows'.

What a load of nonsense.

jabba,

I don't think it was god/alah's decision to put clothes on us.
The snake told Edam and/or Eve to eat an apple, and it was them who decided to put clothes on.

SOTR, Oh please give us a break. There are hundreds of tribes the world over who wear virtually nothing, and it is seen as beautiful and natural. People the world over go to nudist beaches etc.

The human body is the most natural and beautiful thing, to hide it is the sin, not the other way around.

SheikhOnDeRun wrote:Nudity is wrong in every sense-
Would you like your mother, daughter, sister to be nude?

C'mon of course I would not like this..

But if some of my relatives really felt the need to display themselves naked in public - I would not want society to punish them with the harshest penalties and I do not believe for one second that God would honestly offended by his own creation to the degree that he would inflict his wrath in this world and the next.

SheikhOnDeRun wrote:"Clearly, NO since human nature abhors it"

Your nature may - but mine does not. I just think it's a naked body thats all. Some are Fat some are thin, some have bumps and spots some don't - on the whole they are what we are born in and are not to be ashamed of.

You may feel differently which you are entitled to do.

benwj wrote:I don't think it was god/alah's decision to put clothes on us.
The snake told Edam and/or Eve to eat an apple, and it was them who decided to put clothes on.

So it's the snakes fault then?

God was happy all along for us to wear nothing? But now he has changed his mind?

I once asked what is in it for women to go around in a state of undress - it raised some interesting views from the members here.

At the end of the day, men are very happy to see women walking around semi-nude or as the comedian I once quoted said 'wearing the hoe's uniform'

At the end of the day, I am pro-choice - women should feel comfortable enough to decide how they wish to go out and should not be pressured either to cover up or to not cover up - there is no compulsion in religion. But we have discussed this ad naseum before

Cheers,
Shafique

Shafique,

Thanks for pointing this out.

Also please note I am not bashing Islam, I don't want that to come across like that in my posts. I have some great friends in Islam and they are lovely people - I also see bright, articulate and good natured folk on this forum who are the same, and whom I would no doubt get on with should we ever meet.

My main gripe is that I have personally seen some aspects of religious interpretation damage people and leave them living in shame for what is something god-given in the first place. So I just speak my mind, but unfortunately that may upset others sometimes.

But I should say it is not only islam - I hold the the same with my home religion. For instance when I was a kid I was told that if I played with my ding'a'ling, God would strike me blind.

Mind you when i tried, I remember thinking 'hey this ain't to bad, in fact feels quite good, perhaps I can risk just one eye and learn to live with restriction vision'

Jabba,

No probs - I didn't find anything offensive in what you wrote at all.

Interestingly, Islam was denounced a few centuries ago as being too liberal and the 'Oriental' was portrayed as being obsessed with s.e.x - a portrayal that continues to this day, overtly and subtly. There are more, per capita, more 'johns' in other societies - but the 'muslim' or 'arab' is often portrayed as being more lusty etc.

But coming back to the facts, Islam +is+ the most liberal religion when it comes to marital relations - it is not seen as a shameful act as in Christianity or Judaism, only one that should be enjoyed in a publically declared relationship (i.e. marriage).

A misconception is that Islam thinks the body is shameful and that is why it is covered up. This is a Christian hang up rooted in the Garden of Eden story in Genesis (referred to above).

Islam on the contrary views physical beauty as a precious commodity and it is viewed as disrespectful of this beauty to flaunt it - as we believe it cheapens it. Too much of any good thing makes one tire of it and look for different things - this is just human nature.

My question to people is - why not cover up if you want to? Why do people feel the need to display their assets? Should those that only wish to keep private things private be criticised or pitied?

Cheers,
Shafique

point of clarification - Islam is the most liberal of the trio of Abrahamic religions. I think a good arguement could be made for Hinduism to be more liberal than Islam in these affairs.

Chocoholic wrote:SOTR, Oh please give us a break. There are hundreds of tribes the world over who wear virtually nothing, and it is seen as beautiful and natural. People the world over go to nudist beaches etc.

The human body is the most natural and beautiful thing, to hide it is the sin, not the other way around.

Your logic is flawed. You would characterize the tribes that you refer to as "primitive" or "uncivilized". Civilization has guided men and women to put clothes on. So, Islam, through its dress code, is the ultimate civilization.

I went to Jumeirah beach twice in a row when I was in Dubai. Just sat there and watched all the half naked people- it is a beautiful sight. No kidding, it makes you happy.

MS wrote:

Chocoholic wrote:SOTR, Oh please give us a break. There are hundreds of tribes the world over who wear virtually nothing, and it is seen as beautiful and natural. People the world over go to nudist beaches etc.

The human body is the most natural and beautiful thing, to hide it is the sin, not the other way around.

Your logic is flawed. You would characterize the tribes that you refer to as "primitive" or "uncivilized". Civilization has guided men and women to put clothes on. So, Islam, through its dress code, is the ultimate civilization.

Another way to look at it, is to understand that these tribes do not view themselves as being 'naked' and think nothing of it.
They are not materialistic and only take what they need to survive.
The only sin that they can be acused of is the 'original sin'.
This makes them the most worthy of entering heaven.

benwj wrote:

MS wrote:

Chocoholic wrote:SOTR, Oh please give us a break. There are hundreds of tribes the world over who wear virtually nothing, and it is seen as beautiful and natural. People the world over go to nudist beaches etc.

The human body is the most natural and beautiful thing, to hide it is the sin, not the other way around.

Your logic is flawed. You would characterize the tribes that you refer to as "primitive" or "uncivilized". Civilization has guided men and women to put clothes on. So, Islam, through its dress code, is the ultimate civilization.

Another way to look at it, is to understand that these tribes do not view themselves as being 'naked' and think nothing of it.
They are not materialistic and only take what they need to survive.
The only sin that they can be acused of is the 'original sin'.
This makes them the most worthy of entering heaven.

I never said that these tribes will enter hell. As long nobody taught them anything, they are not accountable for anything. It is up to us to teach them though.

In any case, dressing up is still a sign of civilization, and walking naked is a sign of being "primitive" and "uncivilized" ...

shafique wrote:point of clarification - Islam is the most liberal of the trio of Abrahamic religions. I think a good arguement could be made for Hinduism to be more liberal than Islam in these affairs.

What about the Karma Sutra though - thats quite a collar adjusting , pictorial piece of erotic literature?

Jabba - I sort of had that in mind, although I think to be fair it isn't really a religious scripture.

MS, your argument is flawed, the Romans and the Greeks had the ultimate civilisations and did they wear lots of clothing - er nope!

And why do you assume that tribes are primitive? They don't have to be 'taught' anything at all.

As far as I'm concerned people can wear what ever they want, if they don't feel ashamed or embarrassed, why should anyone else be. There's nothing horrid about the human form.

Chocoholic wrote:And why do you assume that tribes are primitive? They don't have to be 'taught' anything at all.

By 'taught' I think that MS meant that they are heathens and it is our responsibility to introduce them to the good Lord...
Nuff said.

Looking at this from a religious point of view, in my opinion God is not offended by nudity. Adam and Eve were created naked, they started wearing clothes when sin entered into the world and with it the knowledge of good and evil. God is offended by lust (outside of marriage) which due to our own sinful thoughts is fueled by nudity. As to how much a person covers up I think that it is for each individual to decide and also depends alot on the society you are living in. One thing I don't understand is why Muslims focus so much on women covering up and not men. As though only women are desirable and only men experience lust... believe me that is not the case.

Strawberries wrote:Looking at this from a religious point of view, in my opinion God is not offended by nudity. Adam and Eve were created naked, they started wearing clothes when sin entered into the world and with it the knowledge of good and evil. God is offended by lust (outside of marriage) which due to our own sinful thoughts is fueled by nudity. As to how much a person covers up I think that it is for each individual to decide and also depends alot on the society you are living in. One thing I don't understand is why Muslims focus so much on women covering up and not men. As though only women are desirable and only men experience lust... believe me that is not the case.

Actually, it is the non-Muslims that focus on Muslim women and what they wear (in my opinion).

Everywhere the dress code for women is detailed in the Quran it is preceded by the dress code for men. Muslim men are also required to 'guard their private parts' ; 'cast down their eyes' and be righteous.

The different dress requirements only reflect the biological differences - women have a little more to cover up and have more responsibility than men for certain tasks whilst men have more responsibility than women for other tasks/functions - but on a spiritual level both are equal. Islam gives more importance to women than men - as we believe paradise lies under the feet of a mother.

In human societies the more importance is given to a person, the more protected the person is and the more hidden from view that person generally is - no one can just go in and see the Queen of England and her family, say, and they value their privacy on their estates. When they choose to go out in public, they are in control of what they wear and how they present themselves to the public.

Cheers,
Shafique

Personally I wish some men would cover up more. Really hairy blokes, and men with big fat bellies and man boobs, just shouldn't be allowed out.

I realized that some people like to think that Muslim women are forced to a certain dress code. This may be true in some (very few) places. the vast majority of Muslim women choose how to dress, and when they dress modestly, they have really chosen to do so. Just go around and ask.

Besides, why do some people focus on Muslim women? Local men cover up as much as women (shoulder to toes + hair). Why do some people like to think that Muslim women are discriminated against? They aer only respected!

In any case, discriminating against people based on their physical appearance (with regards to show body or not to show body) is not acceptable.

Actually, it is the non-Muslims that focus on Muslim women and what they wear (in my opinion).

Indeed non-Muslims do focus on what muslim women wear because it is obvious that for some it is different to non-Muslims whereas that is not the case with men. But I stand by what I said initially when I was refering to Muslims, in my experience many focus alot more on what women wear than men.

Everywhere the dress code for women is detailed in the Quran it is preceded by the dress code for men. Muslim men are also required to 'guard their private parts' ; 'cast down their eyes' and be righteous.

I am aware there is also a 'dress code' for men, but I am talking about what I actually see practised not what is taught. I see Muslim men not following this and nobody mentions it but when women don't follow it thats another story...
Also do you think I could visit all Muslim countries and wear what 'I choose' and expect men to "cast down their eyes and be righteous" ... this is not the case in the experiences of women I have spoken with, instead they talk about being "stared at and gropped" and the blame is put soley on the women. I do believe women have a responsibility but unfortunately the responsibilty that men also have is not emphasised enough! So how much choice do women have in some countries?... the choice of being gropped or not?

A close friend of mine did choose to start wearing Hijab several years ago and I still remember the comments she made afew weeks later... she quite excitedly told me that she gets even more attention from guys now (this is in a non-Muslim country). Despite her appearance, to us close friends she was known as being obssessed with guys and a tease. I'm not meaning to have a go at Muslims here or disrespect those wearing Hijab but I want to say that a persons conduct is more important then their appearance and often people blindly follow the 'rules' without understanding the values.

The different dress requirements only reflect the biological differences - women have a little more to cover up and have more responsibility than men for certain tasks whilst men have more responsibility than women for other tasks/functions - but on a spiritual level both are equal. Islam gives more importance to women than men - as we believe paradise lies under the feet of a mother.

So on a spiritual level both are equal and yet more importance is given to women than men? how is this?

In human societies the more importance is given to a person, the more protected the person is and the more hidden from view that person generally is - no one can just go in and see the Queen of England and her family, say, and they value their privacy on their estates. When they choose to go out in public, they are in control of what they wear and how they present themselves to the public.

The more importance given to a person, the more protected that person is... the more protected they are the more hidden away they are... and therefore the less freedom they have which is something I greatly value. I for one am glad I'm not a Queen

Once again I'm not trying to have a go at Muslims and apologise if I've offended anyone. I just want to have a better understanding of Islam and I can't bring up these points with most Muslims I know for fear of offending them. But I also realize what is taught and what is practised often don't add up in many individuals of all religions.

Strawberries wrote:Indeed non-Muslims do focus on what muslim women wear because it is obvious that for some it is different to non-Muslims whereas that is not the case with men. But I stand by what I said initially when I was refering to Muslims, in my experience many focus alot more on what women wear than men.

Fair enough - I'll accept that in your experience muslims focus more on what women wear.

Strawberries wrote:
I am aware there is also a 'dress code' for men, but I am talking about what I actually see practised not what is taught. I see Muslim men not following this and nobody mentions it but when women don't follow it thats another story...

I'm not sure what your point about the dress code for men not being observed - we are instructed to cover up in public and wear clothes from neck to below the knee.

Most Muslim women do not wear a hijab or a veil (as neither are compulsory under Islam).

Strawberries wrote:Also do you think I could visit all Muslim countries and wear what 'I choose' and expect men to "cast down their eyes and be righteous" ... this is not the case in the experiences of women I have spoken with, instead they talk about being "stared at and gropped" and the blame is put soley on the women.

I do believe that on balance as a woman you'd be more respected in practice in a Muslim country than in a non-Muslim country.

And are you sure that Muslims blame the woman soley for a man groping a woman?

The yardstick should surely be whether women are bothered more or less in Muslim societies. I would submit that like most catholics would balk at even the idea of groping a nun in a habit, most Muslims would have the same view of groping a woman in a hijab or head covering. Are there, however, catholics who would grope a nun or muslims who are leches? Of course there are - but I would not categorise all of them for the misdemeanors of the few.

Strawberries wrote:I do believe women have a responsibility but unfortunately the responsibilty that men also have is not emphasised enough! So how much choice do women have in some countries?... the choice of being gropped or not?

Not emphasised enough by whom? Is there someone out there saying its ok to molest/harass women?

Strawberries wrote:A close friend of mine did choose to start wearing Hijab several years ago and I still remember the comments she made afew weeks later... she quite excitedly told me that she gets even more attention from guys now (this is in a non-Muslim country). Despite her appearance, to us close friends she was known as being obssessed with guys and a tease. I'm not meaning to have a go at Muslims here or disrespect those wearing Hijab but I want to say that a persons conduct is more important then their appearance and often people blindly follow the 'rules' without understanding the values.

Absolutely agree - wearing the hijab is just part of comporting oneself in society. I have many Christian friends who are ladies and comport themselves in a very respectable way and are indistinguishable in conduct with Muslim ladies in their demeanor and dress.

The point is that both sets of women do not flaunt their bodies - they at least cover up and act 'lady like'. The Hijab and veil are just pieces of cloth, after all.

Strawberries wrote:So on a spiritual level both are equal and yet more importance is given to women than men? how is this?

Spirtual matters = no difference - umm, how else can I explain this... all matters to do with piety, how we think, how we pray, how we will be rewarded for actions etc -all are equal (and explicitly equal) in the Quran.

Due to biological differences, society gives women and children higher priority/importance - this is not something that is solely found within religion. It happens in disaster situations (women and children first), it happens in law, in employment regulations (eg maternity) and also in more trivial matters such as sport.

Strawberries wrote:
The more importance given to a person, the more protected that person is... the more protected they are the more hidden away they are... and therefore the less freedom they have which is something I greatly value. I for one am glad I'm not a Queen

Most women would love to be cherished like the Queen or a precious jewel.

You are missing an important part of the whole ethos of Islamic modest dress - women cover up only when they come out into wider society where men who are not close male relatives may see them. The pieces of cloth are to allow them the freedom to participate fully in society and not to be locked away.

What has been discussed many times before is why a woman should not be free to choose to not allow other men to ogle her. Why should she not be allowed to dress modestly - the only person who is disadvantaged is the men who would look at the lady. Most men would not be bothered at all - they see a woman covered up and have to relate to her as a person for what she is and not for what she chooses to wear or not to wear.

Strawberries wrote:Once again I'm not trying to have a go at Muslims and apologise if I've offended anyone. I just want to have a better understanding of Islam and I can't bring up these points with most Muslims I know for fear of offending them. But I also realize what is taught and what is practised often don't add up in many individuals of all religions.

I hope that you get my point that it is grossly unfair to characterise a whole religion, race or gender for the misdemeanours of the minority.

Islam is not alone is advocating modesty in dressing and in mixing of sexes. Around the world you will be hard pressed to tell the difference between a Greek Orthodox, Iranian, Malaysian, Nigerian, Catholic etc etc lady just from the amount of flesh they cover up.

As I said before as well - many a man will thank the lady who decides it is a sign of freedom to dress s.e.x.ily in the uniform of the ladies of the night. I take my hat off to those men who managed to persuade the women to think this way.

Cheers,
Shafique

Thanks for your replies Shafique, you have given me a better perspective to consider things.

I guess where I am coming from is the fact that I have lived with Muslim guys the past 5 years and have not seen love and respect for women (except me). Instead I see them lying to them, using them and discarding them then laughing at the women for being that naive without any sense of responsibility for their own actions. However I know Islam does not support this behaviour and I agree it is unfair to characterise a whole religion by the misdemeanors of the minority. Their behaviour probably reflects the society they are living in but I don't believe thats any excuse and whether we like it or not we are all ambassaders of our own faith.

Also I want to go and live in a specific Islamic country but my husband does not think I can handle it... he says I would not be able to wear the clothes I wear here, I would not be able to leave the house alone and I wouldn't be able to use certain public transport (he grewup in that country). So it seemed to me that the unwanted male touching was on a larger scale then just the "misdemeanors of afew". I hope it is a reflection of society not Islam. I personally have not heard of this being an issue with Catholics... they seem to prefer little boys instead. Anyway I'm still keen to shift there and see for myself but we opted for Dubai instead.

Strawberries you sound like one paranoid, uninformed, fixated, and extremely judgmental individual.

Strawberries wrote:I agree it is unfair to characterise a whole religion by the misdemeanors of the minority.

Well duh!!! Are you just now realizing this? Seriously, is this something that a grown woman just realized now? Damn. You must be a really late mental bloomer. No wait, you have it against Catholics too; all Catholics are pedophiles if we go by your "reasoning"! Care to share what you think of Jews or is that an "untouchable" religion? Let's not stop at religion, why not mention races?

I think it's best that you go live in a crystal castle preferably in a religion-less country, oh Strawberry princess, there you'll protected from all those Islamic boogie men that are surely after your hotness. ha!

Next time you post, why not tell us a bit about yourself and your culture, so that we can bring out our generalizations and stereotypes and throw them your way, you know, an equal exchange. I'm sure you'll really enjoy it.

freza wrote:Strawberries you sound like one paranoid, uninformed, fixated, and extremely judgmental individual.

Sounds like someone else I know

jabbajabba wrote:

freza wrote:Strawberries you sound like one paranoid, uninformed, fixated, and extremely judgmental individual.

Sounds like someone else I know

Ouch! That hurts. But I'm certain that I'm only 16% of the above

Strawberries you sound like one paranoid, uninformed, fixated, and extremely judgmental individual.

Well duh!!! Are you just now realizing this? Seriously, is this something that a grown woman just realized now? Damn. You must be a really late mental bloomer. No wait, you have it against Catholics too; all Catholics are pedophiles if we go by your "reasoning"! Care to share what you think of Jews or is that an "untouchable" religion? Let's not stop at religion, why not mention races?

I think it's best that you go live in a crystal castle preferably in a religion-less country, oh Strawberry princess, there you'll protected from all those Islamic boogie men that are surely after your hotness. ha!

Hahahaha you need to take a chill pill Feza but point taken, reading back it was pretty insensitive. In future I'll keep my opinions and experiences to myself and just ask questions
I don't have anything against Muslims, I'm married to one. I don't have anything against Catholics either it was just a bad joke and a way to acknowledge that there are issues within followers of all religions.

Next time you post, why not tell us a bit about yourself and your culture, so that we can bring out our generalizations and stereotypes and throw them your way, you know, an equal exchange. I'm sure you'll really enjoy it.

I'm Australian and Open Brethren so go ahead be my guest... doesn't worry me, I don't take too much personally.