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shafique wrote:

St.Lucifer wrote:
Coexistence, hmm. So Islam or its people dont believe or dont recognize or dont respect any new age religions?

No, we don't believe in following other religions or believe in the claims of the founders of the newer religions. That would be obvious, I would think.

However Islam teaches tolerance and freedom of faith and has practiced this in the past (and unfortunately many clerics are less than tolerant these days - insisting, for example, that apostacy is a crime punishable by death).

I respect other peoples right to believe in fairies or any other fairy tale or any other belief system. I have had cordial discussions with Wicans to Sikhs, Buddhists to Hippies - but at the end, where we disagree - we agree to disagree.

The Quran, for example, says that fighting is sometimes required to protect Churches, Synagogues and Temples (and puts mosques last in the list). I don't believe I have come across another religion which advocates the protection of other faiths - to the extent of fighting if necessary.

Cheers,
Shafique

Shafique... being born in India... u know, there are lots of things that u realize and understand in yoa day to day life. but more things keep u thinking and unanswered..
Hope you have heard of babri masjid issue.

It is believed that in 1530's Muslim invader Babur(who ruled many parts of norther India for years) ordered his commander-in-chief Mir Baki to destroy an existing temple at the site and construct Babri masjid.

Hindu's demolished the sacred masjid in Ayodhya on dec 6th, 1992.

There were nation wide fights, protests, killings, riots. It happens time and again and even special speaches on that day at masjids as well as temples. Many many Monuments and even a worldwonder supposedly belonged to Indian rulers and people of yesteryears... who ofcourse existed much before Islamic movement started in India. So Do u say its right to claim back these properties. in a way they are protecting their faith and temples. If u look the otherway.. many of them are mosques/ masjids now.. so muslims have their right to protect their place of worship.. both can even fight to protect their interests.

Makes me wonder... arent we all same.. humanbeings... and if religions were just personal practices.. which is more of self evolving kind and if all were just happy with what ever religion other may be following.. wouldnt it be a much better place. It would be. and I hope that day will come.

St.Lucifer wrote:I firmly believe that religions and the concept of God is very clearly 'created' by men. Animals dont have Gods and religions or do they have?? i dont know.. someone not born into a religion, never heard of God, never read any religious books.. would he start thinking of a supernatural force? to my understanding yes, what would happen then.. would he create a new set of rules a guide book of how he understands what God is ? this may lead to a new religion. just some random thoughts.

Now I really don't mean to hurt your feelings (and I am being sincere), but this above sounds like something a kid would say/ask. Kids are supposed to outgrow these very basic phases of questioning religion and their place in the universe....Hhhmm...And the rest of what you wrote is all over the place... Geesh. You clearly didn't try to understand my arguments, so it's quite useless to try to understand whatever it is that you think you believe in and whatever it is that you're not content in seeing others believe in. You remind me of another DF character, no matter what anyone says, the character only hears the voices in his head. Good luck with your new movement, I'm sure it will be a hit!

asc_26 wrote:It's my personal views. Why don't you just respect it instead of calling me a harlequin. I am not.

What you previously wrote didn't sound like coherent opinions, they sounded more like sweeping, rash, generalized and completely unsubstantiated statements. Like calling you a fool would be a rash statement, I guess it would be better to say: In my own opinion I respect the views of the Harlequin, as ridiculous as they might be.

I sense a fight brewing.

I know better than to step into two ladies having a lively discussion.

StL - yes I am aware of the Babri incident. A lot of harm is done in the name of religion, just as a lot of harm is done in the name of nationalism (Hitler, for example).

We can Imagine a world without countries and religion too , but philosphically, if you believe in Monotheism and the common humanity, don't you think God would have one message for the whole of mankind?

Remember also, cause and effect, just because a lot of bad is done in the name of religion by a minority, does not mean religion is the problem. It is convenient to label actions as 'Islamic' when they are just criminal - similarly, the barbarity done by man against man seems to know no religous bounds - even in the Dalai Llama's camp in India, monks killed other monks over the interpretation of scripture (this was a few years back when the Dalai branded the veneration of a particular saint as dangerous) - and we all know the examples of barbarity carried out by Christians, Hindus etc.

In all cases the violence was DESPITE the religious teachings and carried out by the minority of adherents of the respective religions.

Cheers,
Shafique

freza wrote:

St.Lucifer wrote:I firmly believe that religions and the concept of God is very clearly 'created' by men. Animals dont have Gods and religions or do they have?? i dont know.. someone not born into a religion, never heard of God, never read any religious books.. would he start thinking of a supernatural force? to my understanding yes, what would happen then.. would he create a new set of rules a guide book of how he understands what God is ? this may lead to a new religion. just some random thoughts.

Now I really don't mean to hurt your feelings (and I am being sincere), but this above sounds like something a kid would say/ask. Kids are supposed to outgrow these very basic phases of questioning religion and their place in the universe....Hhhmm...And the rest of what you wrote is all over the place... Geesh. You clearly didn't try to understand my arguments, so it's quite useless to try to understand whatever it is that you think you believe in and whatever it is that you're not content in seeing others believe in. You remind me of another DF character, no matter what anyone says, the character only hears the voices in his head. Good luck with your new movement, I'm sure it will be a hit!

asc_26 wrote:It's my personal views. Why don't you just respect it instead of calling me a harlequin. I am not.

What you previously wrote didn't sound like coherent opinions, they sounded more like sweeping, rash, generalized and completely unsubstantiated statements. Like calling you a fool would be a rash statement, I guess it would be better to say: In my own opinion I respect the views of the Harlequin, as ridiculous as they might be.

Hey Freza...

Hey I'm sorry for the way I write. Perhaps I'm not all that good at it... wow atleast..seems like I've found someone who understands the child in me ( now dont say thats from a movie). but dont b just like as a rough nanny who never cares for the kids or whatever they've to say.

shafique wrote:I sense a fight brewing.

I know better than to step into two ladies having a lively discussion.

StL - yes I am aware of the Babri incident. A lot of harm is done in the name of religion, just as a lot of harm is done in the name of nationalism (Hitler, for example).

We can Imagine a world without countries and religion too , but philosphically, if you believe in Monotheism and the common humanity, don't you think God would have one message for the whole of mankind?

Remember also, cause and effect, just because a lot of bad is done in the name of religion by a minority, does not mean religion is the problem. It is convenient to label actions as 'Islamic' when they are just criminal - similarly, the barbarity done by man against man seems to know no religous bounds - even in the Dalai Llama's camp in India, monks killed other monks over the interpretation of scripture (this was a few years back when the Dalai branded the veneration of a particular saint as dangerous) - and we all know the examples of barbarity carried out by Christians, Hindus etc.

In all cases the violence was DESPITE the religious teachings and carried out by the minority of adherents of the respective religions.

Cheers,
Shafique

Still the question and my quest continues... is religion such an important thing.

St.Lucifer wrote:

shafique wrote:I sense a fight brewing.

I know better than to step into two ladies having a lively discussion.

StL - yes I am aware of the Babri incident. A lot of harm is done in the name of religion, just as a lot of harm is done in the name of nationalism (Hitler, for example).

We can Imagine a world without countries and religion too , but philosphically, if you believe in Monotheism and the common humanity, don't you think God would have one message for the whole of mankind?

Remember also, cause and effect, just because a lot of bad is done in the name of religion by a minority, does not mean religion is the problem. It is convenient to label actions as 'Islamic' when they are just criminal - similarly, the barbarity done by man against man seems to know no religous bounds - even in the Dalai Llama's camp in India, monks killed other monks over the interpretation of scripture (this was a few years back when the Dalai branded the veneration of a particular saint as dangerous) - and we all know the examples of barbarity carried out by Christians, Hindus etc.

In all cases the violence was DESPITE the religious teachings and carried out by the minority of adherents of the respective religions.

Cheers,
Shafique

Still the question and my quest continues... is religion such an important thing.

NO.

asc_26 wrote:NO.

That was quick n tight.. I got the answer so fast .. just kiddin k.. Chill Asc..

I'm pro-choice, therefore if people want to follow a religion and think it's important, I won't presume to tell them they're wrong.

From an academic standpoint, empirically religion has done more good than harm and therefore mankind has benefited from religion. I just see what happens to societies that loose their moral compass when they move away from religious values to see the positive impact religious values has on society.

Pride in one's nation and desire for material wealth has created much more death and destruction than any religion. Very few wars have been fought to convert someone to another religion, but many have been fought to gain control over territories and people (and only a few instances of mass forced conversions - mostly in Europe).

Sorry, I meant to just say 'yes' - as I did in my first post in this thread.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:I'm pro-choice, therefore if people want to follow a religion and think it's important, I won't presume to tell them they're wrong.

From an academic standpoint, empirically religion has done more good than harm and therefore mankind has benefited from religion. I just see what happens to societies that loose their moral compass when they move away from religious values to see the positive impact religious values has on society.

Pride in one's nation and desire for material wealth has created much more death and destruction than any religion. Very few wars have been fought to convert someone to another religion, but many have been fought to gain control over territories and people (and only a few instances of mass forced conversions - mostly in Europe).

Sorry, I meant to just say 'yes' - as I did in my first post in this thread.

Cheers,
Shafique

One should look into the things that follows too..religious schools and orgs creep up behind every opportunity given, war, economic crisis et al.
I dont agree that religion as such has improved societies..empirical evidences, can be derived to show that as well..



I believe closing ones ideas on the issues of religion and philosophy and spiritual thinking would be just shutting down the entrance to knowledge, to knwo the truth.. There may b a huge age gap between us Shafiq, so may b u've already found what it means to u. But i guess everyone has to go through the quest and this journey .. but with an open mindset. not biased. Thats y I asked this question, and still ask it, coz to me, a human relations, moral values and principles are much more imp than religion. Or this should be the driving force of a religion or the teachings from it.

I don't equate religion with intolerance or being closed minded. That is certainly not what Islam teaches.

As for socitiety not benefiting from religious values, I would be interested in hearing your arguements for it being detrimental (empirically).

I would be particularly interested in hearing why you would believe that more people did not benefit from following a religion than those who were harmed by following a religion (which is what you are saying when advocating that religion does not benefit society).

I say let everyone choose what they want to follow - religion is, after all, only a set of rules by which one chooses to live one's life.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:
I say let everyone choose what they want to follow - religion is, after all, only a set of rules by which one chooses to live one's life.

It is like saying, people who believe in religion are limited cos they're put inside the box i.e set of rules, which they're bound to follow. It is also the same as, you are being dictated by the so-called set of rules on what you're going to do.

asc_26 wrote:

shafique wrote:
I say let everyone choose what they want to follow - religion is, after all, only a set of rules by which one chooses to live one's life.

It is like saying, people who believe in religion are limited cos they're put inside the box i.e set of rules, which they're bound to follow. It is also the same as, you are being dictated by the so-called set of rules on what you're going to do.

Huh?

Laws are sets of rules too. There are those who advocate we don't have any laws at all.

The whole thing about religion is that it is a recipe to achieve a certain goal. If you don't want to achieve that goal, then you are free to not follow the recipe. Just because you don't like to eat cake or don't believe there will be a cake at the end of the process, doesn't mean you should criticise those who want to follow the recipe.

mmmm - cake......

Cheers,
Shafique

Mmmm...Pancake, cupcake..geez!

mmm Doughnuts

(I haven't had any sweets or cakes for 6 weeks now... but strangely, no cravings unless I'm reading this thread )

Shafique, you are way too generous with the weak minded.

shafique wrote:

asc_26 wrote:

shafique wrote:
I say let everyone choose what they want to follow - religion is, after all, only a set of rules by which one chooses to live one's life.

It is like saying, people who believe in religion are limited cos they're put inside the box i.e set of rules, which they're bound to follow. It is also the same as, you are being dictated by the so-called set of rules on what you're going to do.

Huh?

Laws are sets of rules too. There are those who advocate we don't have any laws at all.

Laws of man is quite different from laws of God like what religious peeps are saying. Unless if the laws of the land were pattern from religious books. Hahah... made me laugh. Do government officials who implement the laws have rituals?

shafique wrote:The whole thing about religion is that it is a recipe to achieve a certain goal. If you don't want to achieve that goal, then you are free to not follow the recipe. Just because you don't like to eat cake or don't believe there will be a cake at the end of the process, doesn't mean you should criticise those who want to follow the recipe.

mmmm - cake......

Cheers,
Shafique

Recipe? I wonder what's the point of beleiving in religion (supposed preach goodwill), then curse people after saying a prayer. I wonder why my colleagues who pray everyday or even perform rituals, don't get promoted at work. I wonder what kind of recipe they're using to achieve their goal. Spiritual Goal? Again, leap of faith.

Remember: I am not imposing on people not to believe on religion. Let them be. St. L asked the question and so i aired by views.

You can find more consise and less emotional ways of giving your opinion asc. You straight out sound bitter. What happened to you? You prayed for a handsome prince and instead got a frog? It's not God's fault. ha! Don't worry, I'm sure one day you'll find a guy that appreciates you even with all your flaws

freza wrote:You can find more consise and less emotional ways of giving your opinion asc. You straight out sound bitter. What happened to you? You prayed for a handsome prince and instead got a frog? It's not God's fault. ha! Don't worry, I'm sure one day you'll find a guy that appreciates you even with all your flaws

My beau will be happy to read this freza. I don't kiss frogs before meeting prince charming. Uff...beau called, he's reading. Made him laugh.

It is concise example freza and really unemotional for me as in really. In the meantime, lemme go to conference room first and finish something. See yah.

ummm, yeah, believe the voices in your head. Next you'll be telling us that you have great grammar, as in really great grammar. Tell your frog (is that your boss?), er, I mean, your beau to compliment you, so that you don't have to do it yourself on a forum. ha!

asc_26 wrote:
Laws of man is quite different from laws of God like what religious peeps are saying. Unless if the laws of the land were pattern from religious books. Hahah... made me laugh. Do government officials who implement the laws have rituals?

I wouldn't go by what 'peeps are saying' - unless, of course, you are referring to my comments.

Religion gives you rules on how to interact with others - so this is clearly the same as laws which limit what is allowed and not allowed. Religion says it is wrong to kill and thieve, for example.

asc_26 wrote:Recipe? I wonder what's the point of beleiving in religion (supposed preach goodwill), then curse people after saying a prayer. I wonder why my colleagues who pray everyday or even perform rituals, don't get promoted at work. I wonder what kind of recipe they're using to achieve their goal. Spiritual Goal? Again, leap of faith.

You do sound bitter.

I'm not sure what you are referring to as a 'ritual' - if it is the contemplation of the divine and supplications made to the creator (i.e. prayers) - then how is that harming you or anyone else?

I totally agree with you that if anyone prayers or meditates and has no benefit from doing so - then there is no point in doing so. I personally am calmed by my prayer and enjoy praying - and it gives me positive energy.

I think your comments about people cursing and not being promoted say more about you than about religion.

I wish you well though and hope you find peace.

Cheers,
Shafique

freza wrote:ummm, yeah, believe the voices in your head. Next you'll be telling us that you have great grammar, as in really great grammar. Tell your frog (is that your boss?), er, I mean, your beau to compliment you, so that you don't have to do it yourself on a forum. ha!

My boss? He's fired! Beau is working for another company and he's not complimenting me for this, he's just laughing, made his day as well. (I wonder why he is not busy like me today)

Grammar?! Out of topic duh! Freza is SOOO SMART!

asc_26 wrote:

freza wrote:ummm, yeah, believe the voices in your head. Next you'll be telling us that you have great grammar, as in really great grammar. Tell your frog (is that your boss?), er, I mean, your beau to compliment you, so that you don't have to do it yourself on a forum. ha!

My boss? He's fired! Beau is working for another company and he's not complimenting me for this, he's just laughing, made his day as well. (I wonder why he is not busy like me today)

Grammar?! Out of topic duh! Freza is SOOO SMART!

OK, let me explain this to you so that you can understand. You said that your comments were concise and "really" unemotional when they're CLEARLY aimless and quite emotional. Anyone can see this, it's that obvious. That's why I mentioned grammar; your grammar is not that great, but I wouldn't be surprised if you said that it is great, since you're in such a state of denial. Do you get this now? I'm not trying to be a smart-azz, but you really take the cake (!) as one of the most bitter and senseless people on here who just can't see their own shortcomings.

Your numerous " " seems like nervous laughter btw, I don't buy that this thread actually made you laugh...

Maybe next time you should have a vague idea about the subject before you contribute?

Anyway, I need to go. Shafique has given you some great advise, you should take it.

freza wrote:

asc_26 wrote:

freza wrote:ummm, yeah, believe the voices in your head. Next you'll be telling us that you have great grammar, as in really great grammar. Tell your frog (is that your boss?), er, I mean, your beau to compliment you, so that you don't have to do it yourself on a forum. ha!

My boss? He's fired! Beau is working for another company and he's not complimenting me for this, he's just laughing, made his day as well. (I wonder why he is not busy like me today)

Grammar?! Out of topic duh! Freza is SOOO SMART!

OK, let me explain this to you so that you can understand. You said that your comments were concise and "really" unemotional when they're CLEARLY aimless and quite emotional. Anyone can see this, it's that obvious. That's why I mentioned grammar; your grammar is not that great, but I wouldn't be surprised if you said that it is great, since you're in such a state of denial. Do you get this now? I'm not trying to be a smart-azz, but you really take the cake (!) as one of the most bitter and senseless people on here who just can't see their own shortcomings.

Your numerous " " seems like nervous laughter btw, I don't buy that this thread actually made you laugh...

Maybe next time you should have a vague idea about the subject before you contribute?

Anyway, I need to go. Shafique has given you some great advise, you should take it.

Woo hoo.... Freza is so smart and grammarian. She's good at criticising people, not just good but very good.

She's not buying what i wrote here, but she keeps on replying. I was expecting shafique to reply to my post, but this girl is replying with more criticisms targetting the poster. This is what you usually do to poster who don't share your own views. I am bitter-sweet angel. blah!

It is only me who has a vague idea about the subject. Blah! By not believing on religion is a shortcoming. Blah! Grow Up girl.

Kanelli is right.

shafique wrote:

asc_26 wrote:
Laws of man is quite different from laws of God like what religious peeps are saying. Unless if the laws of the land were pattern from religious books. Hahah... made me laugh. Do government officials who implement the laws have rituals?

I wouldn't go by what 'peeps are saying' - unless, of course, you are referring to my comments.

Religion gives you rules on how to interact with others - so this is clearly the same as laws which limit what is allowed and not allowed. Religion says it is wrong to kill and thieve, for example.

asc_26 wrote:Recipe? I wonder what's the point of beleiving in religion (supposed preach goodwill), then curse people after saying a prayer. I wonder why my colleagues who pray everyday or even perform rituals, don't get promoted at work. I wonder what kind of recipe they're using to achieve their goal. Spiritual Goal? Again, leap of faith.

You do sound bitter.

I'm not sure what you are referring to as a 'ritual' - if it is the contemplation of the divine and supplications made to the creator (i.e. prayers) - then how is that harming you or anyone else?

I totally agree with you that if anyone prayers or meditates and has no benefit from doing so - then there is no point in doing so. I personally am calmed by my prayer and enjoy praying - and it gives me positive energy.

I think your comments about people cursing and not being promoted say more about you than about religion.

I wish you well though and hope you find peace.

Cheers,
Shafique

I have no further comments shafique. I respect that you're praying for your own good and that's what religion is telling you to do. You have all the right and i am not stopping you at all.

My posts are just my views. Sorry for those who were hit by my grammar error posts.

Ciao!

Oops that was sporty stuff there between the girls
Ok Shafique.. I'm just not finding enough time to get on to something that i've to explain to u.
Shaf n freza.. strong believers.. i never said belief is bad. now thats not some lame excuse..but I would always say it aint that important. Every time i mention this I get replies sayin every religion says human values are imp. u should respect others.. etc etc. but then y did I ask this question? coz thats not how people think and/or are being taught.. it would be very intersting to know the ratio of those who actually know the religion well..

y would one want to differentiate one's self from the masses, y would one want to show off to the world that one is a faith follower .. y does one want the world to know that one is following a particular religion .. ?


Gotttta go.. Freeeez

asc_26 wrote:By not believing on religion is a shortcoming. Blah!

Huh? I NEVER said that not believing in religion is a shortcoming. I've clearly stated that following a religion is a choice and I believe in freedom to choose what you like or what you don't like. I was referring to your personality's shortcomings and your denial of them because you hit this thread in a very emotional and biased way, which exposed your personality flaws more than your views about the subject (and then you denied it!) You know, there's nothing wrong in admitting your shortcomings...

asc_26 wrote:Woo hoo.... Freza is so smart and grammarian.

You still don't get why I brought up grammar? Wow! I was trying to make a correlation involving your self-serving but flawed statements. But geez, you're more busted-up than I thought. And you still wonder why you got the nicknames of "retard" and "dumb blonde" on DF?!

asc_26 wrote:I am bitter-sweet angel. blah!

It is only me who has a vague idea about the subject. Blah!

By not believing on religion is a shortcoming. Blah! Grow Up girl.

Do you see any irony in your completely childish statements followed by "Grow Up girl"? Of course you don't, what am I saying? Irony could hit you on the head and you still wouldn't see it.

I hope Shafique doesn't deal with the hopeless anymore, it's quite a wasted effort. I certainly don't have the inclination to reply to such any longer. 26, you look prettier playing games and writing sappy, pointless stuff. And I look prettier not saying absolutely anything.

Ignorance is supposed to be bliss, but it seems that ignorance = resentment, emotional baggage and inanity for some people... (and I'm certainly not referring to religion here, just talking about ignorance in general...)

"Is religion such an important thing?"

It is to some - but not to me - albeit my far from being perfect as some of my posts clearly display

A couple of points shafique -

For Buddhism - Gautama Buddha's original teachings are also monotheistic and do not reflect what the west understands the teachings of Buddhism to be (an eternal cycle, no God as such etc). I'll have to dig out the references and start a new thread on this.

Buddhism (or rather the teachings of the pali text)) is far from monotheistic (unlike Judaism, Islam (Tawhīd) , Christianity).

Monotheism is belief in one supreme god - Buddha's teachings did not express opinion on the existence of a supreme god - more was said on God's (vedas) but never was reference made to the existence or non existence of a creator.

Similarly the teachings of Jainism (which is aligned to Hinduism, sharing some concepts - but a separate religion) at source have monotheistic themes and have been re-written/added to over the years.

The striking point though is that none of these religions' holy scripture make the claim to being the final or universal religion. All maintain that there will be future messengers who will bring new messages (a fact you allude to in the development of Hindu scripture).

I can only speak on the Buddhist Sutras (as I have not studied anything else). But the whole point of his teaching is that it is a 'way' to discover truth as opposed to outlining the truth;

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. "

So I would agree it is far from complete - it leaves itself open to expansion as the individuals experience reveals more.

jabba.. great view.
ofcourse that may b coz thats more like what I think.

freza wrote:

asc_26 wrote:By not believing on religion is a shortcoming. Blah!

Huh? I NEVER said that not believing in religion is a shortcoming. I've clearly stated that following a religion is a choice and I believe in freedom to choose what you like or what you don't like. I was referring to your personality's shortcomings and your denial of them because you hit this thread in a very emotional and biased way, which exposed your personality flaws more than your views about the subject (and then you denied it!) You know, there's nothing wrong in admitting your shortcomings...

asc_26 wrote:Woo hoo.... Freza is so smart and grammarian.

You still don't get why I brought up grammar? Wow! I was trying to make a correlation involving your self-serving but flawed statements. But geez, you're more busted-up than I thought. And you still wonder why you got the nicknames of "retard" and "dumb blonde" on DF?!

asc_26 wrote:I am bitter-sweet angel. blah!

It is only me who has a vague idea about the subject. Blah!

By not believing on religion is a shortcoming. Blah! Grow Up girl.

Do you see any irony in your completely childish statements followed by "Grow Up girl"? Of course you don't, what am I saying? Irony could hit you on the head and you still wouldn't see it.

I hope Shafique doesn't deal with the hopeless anymore, it's quite a wasted effort. I certainly don't have the inclination to reply to such any longer. 26, you look prettier playing games and writing sappy, pointless stuff. And I look prettier not saying absolutely anything.

Ignorance is supposed to be bliss, but it seems that ignorance = resentment, emotional baggage and inanity for some people... (and I'm certainly not referring to religion here, just talking about ignorance in general...)

Halleluliah, Mashallah! WOW! What a predictable reply.

I am not in the mood to feed you mi pescao y marisco. I just had my insulin shot (painful though). I lost the hook of the fishing rod. But don't worry, sooner or later somebody will come with more pellets to feed you my fish.

I thought you're leaving DF. If you aren't a retard, why are you wasting your time replying to post of senseless and aimless people on here? Hmm.. yummy fish, smart, eloquent, and over confident to correct grammatical error post but...with pronunciation babtize for the word baptize.

Ohh nemo, hope you are not going to dunk inside the toilet bowl before you find your place of people that make sense.

Jabba - good post.

I will not put myself as an expert on Buddhism, but what I was saying was that the original teachings of Buddha was monotheistic, and that this later was modified over time.

I draw parallels between Sufi teachings (very philosophical) in relation to 'orthodox' Islam, and the current Buddhist beliefs and the original teachings.

I'll try and dig out some references.

However, let me be clear that this is merely an intellectual exercise and that these issues do not (nor should they) change anyone's faith.

What one chooses to believe is, in my mind, totally up to the individual and should be assessed on whether it gives them peace or not. For me, for something to give me peace - it cannot be illogical, it has to sit well with my logic and not offend my logic. This is my personal test - and it is not a test I expect everyone else to follow nor will I wish to impose anything on anyone else.

Islam teaches that there is no compulsion in matters of faith - people are different and some value logic more than others, some value feelings above logic - neither are wrong, both feel what they feel and have to find their own peace.

Religion teaches empathy for others, teaches sacrifice and accountability. In short it teaches morals. Because of this, I believe religion to be extremely important - because you can't legislate for these factors.

Cheers,
Shafique