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To Shafiq (coincidently my best friends name too ) and many others,
This post or question is not to hurt anyone's feelings or shackle anyone's faith, its just some random thoughts raised from experiences in life and thinking beyond. Religions and economic divide, 2 most imp things that r braking the world into pieces.

The Good and the Bad
I wouldnt say that any popular religion is bad or they teach wrong, because they all were formed to make this world a better place and educate its people about moral values. But in doing so it has lost its purpose... reasons, world grew smaller.. and people of different religions came together, they had to interact with each other. then , world started facing issues. and people have been tought and mislead to believe their religion is superior to others'.

The question of a Perfect religion, deepest faith

My arguments are multifaceted, to my understanding, faith and concept of God were created by men to find logic for unanswerable questions and to make human beings stick to moral values as acceptable to the majority of a society. A few good, noble men were catalysts in the structuring of new religions, in doing so they only had good faith and well being of people in mind. And then came the writings and scriptures of religions.

Sacred Books

All the religious books are so enticing and awakening to read. Be it be Quran, Bible or Vedas, Upanishads, and etc etc. All the popular religions believe that their scriptures were not man made or they are the teachings of God. Hindus believe that the Vedas are 'apaurusheya' (not human compositions) like wise the belief of other religions. An open mind can understand that these rules of life, teachings of God, rode to a good society were all created long, long back in time. Just as everything else in life, change has to happen to everything. To people's viewing of these scripts as well. Most of the concepts in these sacred texts are written in the form of parables, which were a very common and effective way of expressing ideas and educating the seekers in the era of face - to - face education or oral tradition. But sadly, trying to understand the written text and taking its meaning as it seems is the most common mistake followed by masses. Even if u give your time to understand what is meant by a parable, you would miss many a things due to the fact that these scriptures were written at a different time. and most of the teachings are dependent and concerned to that time. Due these reasons, religious scripts or for that matter most of the dated scripts are open to be interpreted and understood in many different ways, often only helping the reader to get the wrong message.

God and Religions
Sometimes, I feel sad for the fate of world. Ask about God to people of different faith, u'll know that most of them fail to understand the core concept of religions. These are the teachings of ways to reach God. But God as such is omnipotent, or to my belief is in everything, everywhere, in u and me.. everything in the universe. Again it may differ with an 's' in differnt faiths.. everything is GOD's or Everything is GOD. I believe God and Universe are the same. or just like I read from a book called mustard seed, the concept of God is like a mustard seed. the tiniest seed u can spot with naked eyes, yet it grows into such a big plant. If someone who had not seen a mustard seed comes and digs to see the mustard seed anywhere in the roots or branches, he'll only be disappointed. Faith in God, again a personal choice, is similar to that story. If people understand that Mr. Bush being addressed as Bushy.. by his friends, or as Booboo by his grandchildren or as Big.B by some dic, doesnt make him a different person. Its just the different names for the same reality.

Problems with religious Faiths

Performing rituals and following a faith should be strictly by choice. It shouldnt be forced up on to anyone. Politics, ruling and religions should never be mixed. Religions shouldnt promote such faiths and rituals that separate people from the society. They must try to unite in every possible way. In appearance, social life and approach.

Give freedom,education and love to the younger generation. Who knows, we may see yet another prophecy.

Problems with religious Faiths

Performing rituals and following a faith should be strictly by choice. It shouldnt be forced up on to anyone. Politics, ruling and religions should never be mixed. Religions shouldnt promote such faiths and rituals that separate people from the society. They must try to unite in every possible way. In appearance, social life and approach.

Agree 100%.


As to the title of the thread - Is Religion such an important thing? Yes it is.

Cheers,
Shafique

Y do u say so? Do u think moral values cant exist without being strictly religious.
Long preachings from religious authorities and organizations have only promoted people to believe that their faith is better than other ppl's and that is the best. Which leads to seperating people again. This has only lead to more problems. Instead, had these religious groups taken some effort to teach, that people, humanbeings and the moral values are more imp than proving their religion is best, then world would've been a much much wonderful place.

Don u think humanitarianism, and belief in all are equal regardless of their faiths would be good? Or Do u think, only the ways of Islam is right?

shafique wrote:
As to the title of the thread - Is Religion such an important thing?

NOT REALLY. We can survive without religion.

St.Lucifer wrote:Y do u say so? Do u think moral values cant exist without being strictly religious.
Long preachings from religious authorities and organizations have only promoted people to believe that their faith is better than other ppl's and that is the best. Which leads to seperating people again. This has only lead to more problems. Instead, had these religious groups taken some effort to teach, that people, humanbeings and the moral values are more imp than proving their religion is best, then world would've been a much much wonderful place.

Don u think humanitarianism, and belief in all are equal regardless of their faiths would be good? Or Do u think, only the ways of Islam is right?

Basically, any religion that teaches you do separate or do harm to others is wrong - so that takes care of the social aspect.

Religion also (and some say primarily) addresses one's own wellbeing - my contention is that one cannot find true peace without religion.

It also hinges around what you define religion to be - I define it to be a set of rules by which one chooses to live one's life. Islam means following/submission to the will of God so that one finds peace - i.e. living by the rules that bring one to harmony with fellow mankind and also with the Creator of the Universe.

A person, in my opinion and experience, is not complete until they are at peace with themselves and the world - and this is what religion offers.

Cheers,
Shafique

asc_26 wrote:

shafique wrote:
As to the title of the thread - Is Religion such an important thing?

NOT REALLY. We can survive without religion.

Some people aspire to do more than just survive.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:

asc_26 wrote:

shafique wrote:
As to the title of the thread - Is Religion such an important thing?

NOT REALLY. We can survive without religion.

Some people aspire to do more than just survive.

Cheers,
Shafique

We can aspire more, dream more, achieve more even without religion. Religion will only make people more chaotic and confused.

asc_26 wrote:We can aspire more, dream more, achieve more even without religion. Religion will only make people more chaotic and confused.

Will only?

Sounds like preaching to me.

I respectfully beg to differ.

Cheers,
Shafique

Shafique, With no ill intentions, do you think islam is the best religion?

shafique wrote:
Basically, any religion that teaches you do separate or do harm to others is wrong - so that takes care of the social aspect.

Religion also (and some say primarily) addresses one's own wellbeing - my contention is that one cannot find true peace without religion.

FALSE: The non-believer and/or atheists are at peace even without religion.

shafique wrote:It also hinges around what you define religion to be - I define it to be a set of rules by which one chooses to live one's life. Islam means following/submission to the will of God so that one finds peace - i.e. living by the rules that bring one to harmony with fellow mankind and also with the Creator of the Universe.

All religions on earth are saying the same thing.

shafique wrote:A person, in my opinion and experience, is not complete until they are at peace with themselves and the world - and this is what religion offers.

We can be at peace so long you're not doing any harm against fellow human being. The atheists are at peace too.

shafique wrote:[quote="asc_26]
We can aspire more, dream more, achieve more even without religion. Religion will only make people more chaotic and confused.

[/quote]


Will only?

Sounds like preaching to me.

I respectfully beg to differ.

Cheers,
Shafique[/quote]

I am not preaching. It's just an opinion from what i see, religion, people who believe in religion, and people's way of life while believing in their religion. Sometimes, it doesn't make sense at all.

St.Lucifer wrote:Shafique, With no ill intentions, do you think islam is the best religion?

Yes.

It is the only religion that claims to be complete and final.

Also, from a logical perspective, it stands up to close scrutiny.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:

St.Lucifer wrote:Shafique, With no ill intentions, do you think islam is the best religion?

Yes.

It is the only religion that claims to be complete and final.

Also, froma logical perspective, it stands up to close scrutiny.

Cheers,
Shafique

St.Lucifer wrote:Shafique, With no ill intentions, do you think islam is the best religion?

i think no one should answer that question dude, what are you trying to do seriously

Bleakus wrote:

St.Lucifer wrote:Shafique, With no ill intentions, do you think islam is the best religion?

i think no one should answer that question dude, what are you trying to do seriously

I think it's a legitimate question and you will see above I have answered.

However, I have to say that you can't reallly answer the question without have seriously studied other religions and read from the original scriptures (or translations of them) AND sought the views of people who follow the religions. One should not judge a religion from only what the opponents of that religion say (actually that is a general principle of mine on any subject).

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:

St.Lucifer wrote:Shafique, With no ill intentions, do you think islam is the best religion?

Yes.

It is the only religion that claims to be complete and final.

Also, from a logical perspective, it stands up to close scrutiny.

Cheers,
Shafique

Well, I've said a lot about the merits of atheism over my time on here and I stand by them. If you want to believe, it's up to you though, neither of us will ever prove otherwise. However, on the logic point, Islam still relies on a leap of faith like all other faiths, once you've made that leap I'm sure the logic seems sound but from this side of the fence there will always be flaws.

However, as the newest faith, it does beg the questions, just who did the Hindus, Christians etc. think they were talking to all those years ago???

shafique wrote:

Bleakus wrote:

shafique wrote:

St.Lucifer wrote:Shafique, With no ill intentions, do you think islam is the best religion?

Yes.

It is the only religion that claims to be complete and final.

Also, from a logical perspective, it stands up to close scrutiny.

Cheers,
Shafique

i think no one should answer that question dude, what are you trying to do seriously

I think it's a legitimate question and you will see above I have answered.

However, I have to say that you can't reallly answer the question without have seriously studied other religions and read from the original scriptures (or translations of them) AND sought the views of people who follow the religions. One should not judge a religion from only what the opponents of that religion say (actually that is a general principle of mine on any subject).

Cheers,
Shafique

Nice views Shafique. Bleak Dude.. The point is, just as you can see above, religion segregate people, or atleast thats what it does as in its form today. Remember, most of the religious people believe that their religion is the best. so what happens, arent they bound to be compared then? and what does it lead to? We have answers infront of our eyes.

If this world was to have only 1 religion, God would have made everyone in that religion. Or if u think thats your mission, to make everyone follow the religion u follow, where do u respect others' religion. If u have the ability to think above the biased mind, the teachings and think as a free spirit, thats the best and purest thoughts u can ever have. And thats when a man actually realizes himself.


(He, Man, You, your etc are used in a generic sense)

scot1870 wrote:
Well, I've said a lot about the merits of atheism over my time on here and I stand by them. If you want to believe, it's up to you though, neither of us will ever prove otherwise. However, on the logic point, Islam still relies on a leap of faith like all other faiths, once you've made that leap I'm sure the logic seems sound but from this side of the fence there will always be flaws.

However, as the newest faith, it does beg the questions, just who did the Hindus, Christians etc. think they were talking to all those years ago???

Scot, in my view Atheism requires a larger leap of faith - to not believe in a Creator requires belief in an impossibly small probability that we came into being without the intervention of an outside, rational force.

But seriously, I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.

As for Hindus etc - Islam teaches that all these religions were true and that all historic religions were temporal (bounded by time) and spatial (bounded by Geography). With the evolution of man - physically and socially - the needs of religion changed. The religion of Noah is different from Moses and Muhammad, only in complexity, not in the basics.

Islam is the only religion that acknowledges previous religions and religous founders as truthful - Krishna, Confucious, Buddha, Jesus etc are all founders of religions and taught the same basic message of worshipping one God. Sometimes you have to go back to their original to see this - but Islam teaches that all peoples were sent Messengers from God and logic tells us how to look back at history and identify these.

In all of the previous religions too, the teachings explicitly say that the religion is not finalised and that another Prophet/Teacher/Messenger is to come. Christianity and Judaism talk of a great law-bearing prophet after the Messiah (Jesus) - Deuteronomy 18.18 onwards. Hinduism talks of further appearances of Krishna, as does Buddhism (in the same way John the Baptist was the second coming of Elijah).

Islam is the first religion which brought a complete scripture that was dictated word by word as the utterances of God and which carries a promise that God will protect it. This promise has been fulfilled.

In this message, for the first time - religion is declared complete and final and we are challenged to examine the religion critically and use our intellect.

I have no issue with people choosing to believe in something else or nothing at all - I will actually fight to preserve this right. This is BECAUSE of what Islam teaches, not despite it.

Here endeth the sermon for today

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Scot, in my view Atheism requires a larger leap of faith - to not believe in a Creator requires belief in an impossibly small probability that we came into being without the intervention of an outside, rational force.

But seriously, I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.

As for Hindus etc - Islam teaches that all these religions were true and that all historic religions were temporal (bounded by time) and spatial (bounded by Geography). With the evolution of man - physically and socially - the needs of religion changed. The religion of Noah is different from Moses and Muhammad, only in complexity, not in the basics.

Islam is the only religion that acknowledges previous religions and religous founders as truthful - Krishna, Confucious, Buddha, Jesus etc are all founders of religions and taught the same basic message of worshipping one God. Sometimes you have to go back to their original to see this - but Islam teaches that all peoples were sent Messengers from God and logic tells us how to look back at history and identify these.

In all of the previous religions too, the teachings explicitly say that the religion is not finalised and that another Prophet/Teacher/Messenger is to come. Christianity and Judaism talk of a great law-bearing prophet after the Messiah (Jesus) - Deuteronomy 18.18 onwards. Hinduism talks of further appearances of Krishna, as does Buddhism (in the same way John the Baptist was the second coming of Elijah).

Islam is the first religion which brought a complete scripture that was dictated word by word as the utterances of God and which carries a promise that God will protect it. This promise has been fulfilled.

In this message, for the first time - religion is declared complete and final and we are challenged to examine the religion critically and use our intellect.

I have no issue with people choosing to believe in something else or nothing at all - I will actually fight to preserve this right. This is BECAUSE of what Islam teaches, not despite it.

Here endeth the sermon for today

Cheers,
Shafique

Shafique, you are wrong at couple of places. Krishna is not a religious leader. and islam is not the only religion that recognizes others. Infact that was news to me religions like Hinduism says, there will be other religions and faiths that come in, but they all lead to the same way. And Jainism and Budhism upto a certain extent are totally different faiths. Its not based on the trade off between Good n bad for Heaven n hell. So you may follow islamic scriptures of bible n yet b a hindu. Buddism and Jainism are purely based on spiritual and moral values. And most of the eastern religions are much more philosophical and open.

Hiduism for example, says
Truth is one(truth to mean God), the wise call it in many different ways.
and it also continues to say that the spiritual truths of the Vedas are eternal but continue to be expressed in new ways.
this is the very reason why the Hindu scriptural rules are not closed but evolving even today. Also I've felt that the harder and more spoonfed the teachings are, the lesser will be the ability for free thinking.

Interesting points St Luc - but I don't think I was wrong... let me explain.

Yes, Krishna is not viewed as a religious founder by the Hindus, however I do believe he was a mortal person who founded the religion. I believe he was elevated to the status of a god over time - but if you go back to his original teachings, it is monotheistic. In fact, the concept of Brahma in Hinduism is of an all powerful God.

As for Hinduism recognising prior religions and other prophets, I think you aren't right to equate the teachings of many paths to salvation with the recognition of other prophets and holy books. Ask a Hindu priest whether the Bible is a true word of God and whether we should follow the precepts in the Bible (including the dietary laws, for example). It will be interesting to see whether he agrees with your view that they recognise Judaism as a true religion that leads to the same goal. (You may also mischievously ask them why in ancient puranas the eating of meat was advocated as beneficial and it is clear that Brahmins kept and ate cow meat.)

For Buddhism - Gautama Buddha's original teachings are also monotheistic and do not reflect what the west understands the teachings of Buddhism to be (an eternal cycle, no God as such etc). I'll have to dig out the references and start a new thread on this.

Similarly the teachings of Jainism (which is aligned to Hinduism, sharing some concepts - but a separate religion) at source have monotheistic themes and have been re-written/added to over the years.

The striking point though is that none of these religions' holy scripture make the claim to being the final or universal religion. All maintain that there will be future messengers who will bring new messages (a fact you allude to in the development of Hindu scripture).

Islam claims to be evolutionary peak of the former religions - something other religions don't do.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:

St.Lucifer wrote:Shafique, With no ill intentions, do you think islam is the best religion?

Yes.

It is the only religion that claims to be complete and final.

Also, from a logical perspective, it stands up to close scrutiny.

Cheers,
Shafique

What's Islam's stance on Evolution - Do Muslims believe that humans evolved from animals?

Islam is the only religion that acknowledges previous religions and religous founders as truthful

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1'%C3%AD_Faith

Valkyrie,

I think we've discussed the Islamic view of creation and evolution before - when discussing the Quranic verses about creation - that life was created from inorganic material and water (dust and water) and that man and all living creatures did evolve.

We do not believe we evolved from modern monkeys (which is not what evolution teaches anyway) but that all life evolved over time from basic lifeforms to the more complex organisms of today. As an aside, it is this process of the development of complex life forms and the universe in general that means I cannot be an atheist - as I cannot have the faith required to believe this all came about by chance alone.

As for Bahaism and Babism (the original sect created by the 'Bab') - these are off-shoots of Shia Islam. I have read the Kitab-e-Aqdas and also the original book of the Bab (sorry, I forget the name of the book). Bab did not claim to bring a new religion and his followers considered themselves Shia Muslims, Bahai did declare a new religion and claimed to receive revelations.

Bahai was executed and hence suffered the same fate as the Mormon founder (who was also shot). As such, both Bahai and Joseph Smith fail the tests of true prophets laid down in the Bible and Quran (see Deut 18.20)

Anyway - both Bahaism and Mormonism(for example) are religious groups founded AFTER the rise of Islam - I said that Islam recognises the previous religions and founders and says that Islam is the final religion. No new religion will come from God according to the Quran (note, this hasn't stopped me studying Bahaism and the Mormon books).

Cheers,
Shafique

Shafique, I'd like refer to some of the issues stated here. Hinduism to its true believers is/has always been monotheistic.And just like Krishna, All the prophets were mere mortal beings, who had an enlightened heart, mind an soul, who strived to teach good to people and unite them. not to separate them.

I think I mentioned about Buddism n Jainism as references to being open and more philosophical faiths.. which gives freedom to individuals and promotes coexistence.

I'd like to point out n correct you that Brahma is not the all powerful god, but he's identified as the Creator and one of the Hindu Trinity( which are essentially believed to be different forms of God in carrying out different tasks)

It is Brahman(Greater Self),Parambrahman or Sat-Chit-Ananda(sacchidananda) that is considered as the God. but the notable difference is in the way it is mentioned, It is not the goodness or all powerful image of God that you get from other religions thats is attributed, but the Brahman( much more than our understanding of God) is

"Brahman is knowledge", (prajnanam brahma)
"The Self (or the Soul) is Brahman " (ayam atma brahma)
"I am Brahman" (aham brahmasmi)
"You are that" (tat tvam asi)
"All this that we see in the world is Brahman", (sarvam khalv idam brahma),
"Brahman is existence, consciousness, and happiness" (sachchidananda brahma).
Thus, Brahman is conceived of as the very essence of existence and knowledge, which pervades the entire universe, including every living being.

Interestingly, it should be worth noting that Islam and Christianity are strictly bound to good and evil, unlike concepts in Hinduism that says everything is One. And the faith is not bound to heaven or hell, its more oriented towards promoting moksha of the soul.

The goal of life is stated variously as the realization of one's union with Brahman, attainment of the vision of God, attainment of perfect love of God, realization of the unity of all existence, perfect unselfishness, liberation from ignorance, attainment of perfect mental peace, or detachment from worldly desires. The goal is to have the direct experience of divinity. The experience of divinity is the only thing that can give one true peace and happiness, and salvation from suffering and ignorance.

I could consider your suggestion of asking a hindu priest about following bible as the scripture . or i can just know about Islam from chowdry's and lots of other modern UK 'islamic pundits'. I think I've made my ponit clear.

Eating Bief, pork etc are mere personal choices for me I know lot of hindus, including brahmins who eat beef and muslims who eat pork well that may b just the speciality of Indian Muslims and so called liberated hindus .

The fact is the more one sticks to whats written, and believes that one's religion is the only one and the true. Issues are going to crop up and problems are never gonna end. And it is hight time that all the religions stop teaching religion and take up humanitarianism and free moral values.

shafique wrote:Valkyrie,

Bahai was executed and hence suffered the same fate as the Mormon founder (who was also shot). As such, both Bahai and Joseph Smith fail the tests of true prophets laid down in the Bible and Quran (see Deut 18.20)

Anyway - both Bahaism and Mormonism(for example) are religious groups founded AFTER the rise of Islam - I said that Islam recognises the previous religions and founders and says that Islam is the final religion. No new religion will come from God according to the Quran (note, this hasn't stopped me studying Bahaism and the Mormon books).

Cheers,
Shafique

Coexistence, hmm. So Islam or its people dont believe or dont recognize or dont respect any new age religions?

Thank for your clarifications.

I meant Brahman and not Brahma - thanks for highlighting the difference.

Islam is not bound by Good vs Evil - I'm not sure where you got that from, there is no fight as such. God created humans with the capacity of choice - evil is just the lack of goodness, like dark is the absesnce of light. To give humans the choice of doing good, by default evil is also created - by the choice not to do good. There is no fight between evil and good - just a struggle of intentions pulling to do good or not do good.

Also, thank you for reinforcing my view that Hinduism is at its core monotheistic and was founded by mortal men. Many people I have spoken to insist Hinduism is idolatrous at its core and polytheistic - raising its saints to the status of gods.

The great Monotheistic faiths - worshipping of one God - are all from the same source according to Islam, and were local religions with local rules. These were all superseded when Islam came along, fulfilling the prophecies in all of these religions of a new prophet/avatar/messenger.

I was being serious about asking Hindu priests to confirm your view about their acceptance of other religions as being truthful - I still maintain that only Islam allows for previous prophets and their messages being truthful and relevant for their time and their people. However, I am not all-knowing and if Hinduism does share this trait - then I will have learnt something.

Cheers,
Shafique

St.Lucifer wrote:This post or question is not to hurt anyone's feelings or shackle anyone's faith,

hahaha, are you serious???

St.Lucifer wrote:The Good and the Bad
I wouldnt say that any popular religion is bad or they teach wrong, because they all were formed to make this world a better place and educate its people about moral values. But in doing so it has lost its purpose... reasons, world grew smaller.. and people of different religions came together, they had to interact with each other. then , world started facing issues. and people have been tought and mislead to believe their religion is superior to others'.

umm, you're talking about nationalism, and politics as it has always existed NOT religion. Many a fight for conquest have been about territory more than religion, they're about a hierarchy and an economic and/or strategic gain more than anything. Religion has played a mostly symbolic or anecdotal role in conflicts. Or it has been an EXCUSE to inflict conflict in which case men have twisted and muddied the true purpose of their religion. In such cases religion is not to blame but, you guessed it, a group of men and their ulterior motives are to blame. And that group is usually separated by race or political affiliation or other motive, the twisted version of religion is just an excuse. Quite a simple concept really, I don't see why it's so difficult to understand. You can easily replace the word religion with "politics" or "race" in your long post here and you would have arrived at a more complete rationale.

St.Lucifer wrote:My arguments are multifaceted

If you say so! Love the way you flatter yourself!

to my understanding, faith and concept of God were created by men to find logic for unanswerable questions and to make human beings stick to moral values as acceptable to the majority of a society.

Ummm, concept of God created by men? This is akin to saying that a son created the concept of his mother. The mom exists with or without the son, whatever concept the son might have of her. God is the logical conclusion as to why the universe and life exists with or without humans, there is something out there that was not "created" (for lack of a better word) the same way that we were and it can exist without human rationalization

You're clearly not a fan of religion, so why do you worry your thoughts about it? Can't you see your own bias towards it? Cuz it's quite clear from where I'm looking at it....

For someone that doesn't care much for religion why even bother? I wouldn't if I were you, but if you like to talk about (against it) I would surely try to understand the concept of it a whole lot better....

asc_26 wrote:

shafique wrote:

asc_26 wrote:

shafique wrote:
As to the title of the thread - Is Religion such an important thing?

NOT REALLY. We can survive without religion.

Some people aspire to do more than just survive.

Cheers,
Shafique

We can aspire more, dream more, achieve more even without religion. Religion will only make people more chaotic and confused.

Does religion make you chaotic and confused and unable to survive? Oh Harlequin, you silly thing...

St.Lucifer wrote:
Coexistence, hmm. So Islam or its people dont believe or dont recognize or dont respect any new age religions?

No, we don't believe in following other religions or believe in the claims of the founders of the newer religions. That would be obvious, I would think.

However Islam teaches tolerance and freedom of faith and has practiced this in the past (and unfortunately many clerics are less than tolerant these days - insisting, for example, that apostacy is a crime punishable by death).

I respect other peoples right to believe in fairies or any other fairy tale or any other belief system. I have had cordial discussions with Wicans to Sikhs, Buddhists to Hippies - but at the end, where we disagree - we agree to disagree.

The Quran, for example, says that fighting is sometimes required to protect Churches, Synagogues and Temples (and puts mosques last in the list). I don't believe I have come across another religion which advocates the protection of other faiths - to the extent of fighting if necessary.

Cheers,
Shafique

freza wrote: hahaha, are you serious???

umm, you're talking about nationalism, and politics as it has always existed NOT religion. Many a fight for conquest have been about territory more than religion, they're about a hierarchy and an economic and/or strategic gain more than anything. Religion has played a mostly symbolic or anecdotal role in conflicts. Or it has been an EXCUSE to inflict conflict in which case men have twisted and muddied the true purpose of their religion. In such cases religion is not to blame but, you guessed it, a group of men and their ulterior motives are to blame. And that group is usually separated by race or political affiliation or other motive, the twisted version of religion is just an excuse. Quite a simple concept really, I don't see why it's so difficult to understand. You can easily replace the word religion with "politics" or "race" in your long post here and you would have arrived at a more complete rationale.

If you say so! Love the way you flatter yourself!

Ummm, concept of God created by men? This is akin to saying that a son created the concept of his mother. God is the logical conclusion as to why the universe and life exists with our without humans, there is something out there that was not "created" (for lack of a better word) the same way that we were and it can exist without human rationalization

You're clearly not a fan of religion, so why do you worry your thoughts about it? Can't you see your own bias towards it? Cuz it's quite clear from where I'm looking at it....

For someone that doesn't care much for religion why even bother? I wouldn't if I were you, but if you like to talk about (against it) I would surely try to understand the concept of it a whole lot better....

Nice post Freza..

Yea by all means I dont mean to hurt anyone's feelings. If u'd known me or my friends..you would've known what is happy coexistence and healthy arguments. oops I guess that was self flattering at best n good to know I'm good at it n peeps are liking it.

I firmly believe that religions and the concept of God is very clearly 'created' by men. Animals dont have Gods and religions or do they have?? i dont know.. someone not born into a religion, never heard of God, never read any religious books.. would he start thinking of a supernatural force? to my understanding yes, what would happen then.. would he create a new set of rules a guide book of how he understands what God is ? this may lead to a new religion. just some random thoughts.

Y do I worry about religion, may b to create a new movement.
well, the reason.. hurt by watching the world being segregated. Even with all the effort put in to educate people and make them understand about other religions, people are just starteing to draw boundaries on the basis of faith. I dunno if its a worldwide phenomenon, but I can clearly see people making use of it in different places that I know.

Call it politics, national interests, money or resources or what ever makes use of religion... thats y its so important to know y is it getting utilized. If everyone were same atleast there would b one less shelter for those bad guys . and this isthe point that I'm are trying to address.

So does it make me a religious person? Does it make me follow one particular religion? Hmm I'm still evolving there. And I dont think I would ever know these things very cery clearly. Coz I still found myself amazing which means.. I dont know/ cant predict myself very clearly and precisely. The day I knwo myself, and realize I'll get the answer to all

sheesh that makes me look like a dread n done pessimistic soul.

freza wrote:

asc_26 wrote:

shafique wrote:

asc_26 wrote:

shafique wrote:
As to the title of the thread - Is Religion such an important thing?

NOT REALLY. We can survive without religion.

Some people aspire to do more than just survive.

Cheers,
Shafique

We can aspire more, dream more, achieve more even without religion. Religion will only make people more chaotic and confused.

Does religion make you chaotic and confused and unable to survive? Oh Harlequin, you silly thing...

It's my personal views. Why don't you just respect it instead of calling me a harlequin. I am not.