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alexandra · Jan 29, 2007

i have read that article earlier today.
i think that before judging any woman who does that surgery it would be fair to know her reasons.
i feel the problem is more complex and goes beyond the the western-arab thing. it;s a matter of a personal choice and i agree that is also influenced by cultural norms, or religion.
in some parts of the world loosing the virginity is something "cool" something u can brag about with ur friends. in other parts keeping ur virginity is a cherished virtue.
something else: men who dream and wish of having a virgin wife, as they go and have sex with every woman available r such hypocrits :twisted:

same goes for women who sleep arround with men but before marriage they go "shopping" for a brand-new hymen :roll:

and i agree that if a man trully loves u he wont care more about a hymen rather than for who u really r.

ShahidSA · Jan 29, 2007

I was only joking about men in my ealier post, there was no such proc in my mind.
Now there is a bit of religious twist in the later threads and I therefore would like wiser men of this forum (I think one use ask Shafiq to reply who I hope has a lot of religious knowledge) TO provide the inside to the following Quranic Versus and what they actually set a standard or moral conduct?

Surah An-Nur:24-2,3
The adulterer marries not but an adulteress or a Mushrikah and the adulteress none marries her except an adulterer or a Muskrik [and that means that the man who agrees to marry (have a sexual relation with) a Mushrikah or a prostitute, then surely he is either an adulterer, or a Mushrik. And the woman who agrees to marry (have a sexual relation with) a Mushrik or an adulterer, then she is either a prostitute or a Mushrikah. Such a thing is forbidden to the believers.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

By the I did not like the way one write mentioned Kuran as just a book, it is not polite to talk about Kuran in that tone and I certainly did not like it and am not going to be apologetic in any way , it is The Book-Holy Kuran-final message of GOD to mankind.

Francheska · Jan 29, 2007

Men make the women like that.
The religion allows them to marry 4 wives at the moment. Moreover the divorce is very easy and simple. It takes to say 3 times "I divorce you" in front of two witnesses (who can be his drinking buddies). Eventually second divorce will follow and she is left on the street. If she is alone it's alright, but if there are kids, it's very complicated.
1. If she is alone, she has to find another one to marry. Otherwise, she has to go back home where she won't be very welcomed if the family is not wealthy and capable to take care of her.Please note: most of the Arab women are not used to work and depend on them self's. Most Arab women are raised with the believe that their husbands will provide for them. So this is why many opt for restoring virginity and not mentioning the previous marriage. I know somebody who first got married at 12 and by the age of 34, she was looking for the 6th husband.
2. If there are kids, it's a miserable life for all of them. The courts will give them very minor alimony and the woman has to struggle and eventually find her self a work in order to support the family. Many women leave their children with the fathers simply because they can't provide for them, not because they don't love them. :cry:

So the surgery in question in many cases can secure second or third chance for a woman.

Francheska · Jan 29, 2007

Francheska wrote:Men make the women like that.
The religion allows them to marry 4 wives at the moment. And if not at the moment, they remarry more often then usual (some 6 to 10 times). Moreover the divorce is very easy and simple. It takes to say 3 times "I divorce you" in front of two witnesses (who can be his drinking buddies). Eventually second divorce will follow and she is left on the street. If she is alone it's alright, but if there are kids, it's very complicated.
1. If she is alone, she has to find another one to marry. Otherwise, she has to go back home where she won't be very welcomed if the family is not wealthy and capable to take care of her.Please note: most of the Arab women are not used to work and depend on them self's. Most Arab women are raised with the believe that their husbands will provide for them. So this is why many opt for restoring virginity and not mentioning the previous marriage. I know somebody who first got married at 12 and by the age of 34, she was looking for the 6th husband.
2. If there are kids, it's a miserable life for all of them. The courts will give them very minor alimony and the woman has to struggle and eventually find her self a work in order to support the family or another man. Many women leave their children with the fathers simply because they can't provide for them, not because they don't love them.
So the surgery in question in many cases can secure second or third chance for a woman.

ShahidSA · Jan 29, 2007

Healing for a raped victim will not help by just restoring her hymen. Acceptance that she was a raped victim & it's not her fault will help her heal fast. Accept her past that she was raped & love her will make her feel good as a person. Hiding from the man that she was raped by restoring her hymen is not helping herself. It is making her the worst & not healing her soul.
===============================================

Well I totally concur with you but its easier said than done for those girls that have been raped. I am not in favour of such procedures but the fact is they are reality and happening, so what we do about it. We go on and talk about it as if we are living in an ideal environment, if we were, theses things would not happen or would not cause girls to go to that level as to repair.

By the way out of curiosity how can the surgery repair whats lost, I mean i do not know the procedure but I feel obnoxious in asking it :-)

Cheers

sauron · Jan 29, 2007

I saw the article too and the bit that got me was the bit about having a proper, longer term job done or a bit of a temporary patch up a few days before the wedding!
For whatever reason they have it done, at least their damage can be repaired, unlike the thousands of women who are forced to undergo female circumcision...but maybe that's another thread.

shafique · Jan 29, 2007

Francheska you seem to have a chip on your shoulder about Islam.

Islam is not unique in advocating chastity before marriage, it is a part of all major world religions.

Islam does not say that only women should be chaste - men too are subject to the same commandments, and therefore those who sleep around are indeed hypocrites for wanting to marry a virgin. I know many Christian men as well as Muslim men who are virgins or were virgins when they got married - and I suspect there are many Jewish men in the same situation.

Now, for the topic at hand - I agree with observations that this is a deceipt being carried out - it is a fraud. Just because men can get away with sleeping around does not make it right - two wrongs do not make a right.

In my opinion, either choose to sleep around before marriage and find a partner that accepts you as you are, or choose to lead a chaste life and be faithful to the marriage. This goes for both men and women.

As for Islam or other religions being 'old fashioned' for advocating that coitus be limited to marriage, all I can say is that the men of the world are very grateful to the women who think this way.

Cheers,
Shafique

bear · Jan 29, 2007

I'm sorry, but I think you are very gravely misinformed about Isalm.

Francheska wrote:The religion allows them to marry 4 wives at the moment.

Do you have any concept of the reason for this? A man may take up to 4, however there are some governing rules that go along with it. The Qur'an says (translated and paraphrased):

"If you fear for the welbeing of orphans, then marry one or two or three of your choosing". Be fair and just between them. But you can never be fair and just between them so marry only one.

This can be interpreted any way one's mind sees it. The most common interpretation is that a man may take a second wife to care for widows and orphans. Why would he marry to take care of them? So that he may visit the family and care for them without the society they are a part of accusing either or them with an illicit relationship, thereby casting dishonor on the man or the family he is caring for.

I would gladly go into greater detail if you wish.

Francheska wrote:Moreover the divorce is very easy and simple. It takes to say 3 times "I divorce you" in front of two witnesses

You were almost correct with this. You left a little bit out though. True saying "I divorce you" 3 times before 2 witnesses is grounds for a divorce to be accepted. However, you did not mention the rules that go along with it. "Itlak" (spelling?) may only be uttered when the mind is not clouded by anger, and must be spaced out over a certain amount of time. I'm not sure of the time, someone else needs to clarify that.

Divorce is something that God made permissible, but is still a thing that is most hated by him.

Francheska wrote:in front of two witnesses (who can be his drinking buddies).

The people that you are speaking of in this comment may be Muslim by name and by word, but are not Muslims in conduct.

Regarding the rest of your post. You seem to have a very corrupt understanding of how women are viewed in Islam and of Islam as a whole. This again is why my argument is that you are using the name of a religion to describe the conduct of a culture.

gtmash · Jan 30, 2007

bear wrote:The people that you are speaking of in this comment may be Muslim by name and by word, but are not Muslims in conduct.

Exactly.

Bleakus · Jan 30, 2007

Francheska wrote:Men make the women like that.
The religion allows them to marry 4 wives at the moment. Moreover the divorce is very easy and simple. It takes to say 3 times "I divorce you" in front of two witnesses (who can be his drinking buddies). Eventually second divorce will follow and she is left on the street. If she is alone it's alright, but if there are kids, it's very complicated.
1. If she is alone, she has to find another one to marry. Otherwise, she has to go back home where she won't be very welcomed if the family is not wealthy and capable to take care of her.Please note: most of the Arab women are not used to work and depend on them self's. Most Arab women are raised with the believe that their husbands will provide for them. So this is why many opt for restoring virginity and not mentioning the previous marriage. I know somebody who first got married at 12 and by the age of 34, she was looking for the 6th husband.
2. If there are kids, it's a miserable life for all of them. The courts will give them very minor alimony and the woman has to struggle and eventually find her self a work in order to support the family. Many women leave their children with the fathers simply because they can't provide for them, not because they don't love them.
So the surgery in question in many cases can secure second or third chance for a woman.

dude, why dont you go study the religion before you write BS on this forum. If you see that that there are things that you see are wrong in the religion, why dont you read books about it that subject and ask why before saying things like these.

Every post you have posted so far was just bashing islam.....if you dont believe in islam, no body is pointing a gun at your face and telling you believe in it.

Either you go and understand the religion properly and argue about specific subject or stop spitting out crap which are untrue about islam.

your views about the divorce subject are wrong by the way...

Francheska · Jan 30, 2007

Bear,

my "very corrupt understanding of how women are viewed in Islam and of Islam as a whole'' is very strongly influenced by the reality that we face daily trough personal experience, mass media, relatives/family stories and all sorts of social interactions.
Yes, the book says that all the wives should be treated fair, but practically this is impossible as no one can love few people in the same way.
& is not only men who marries widows as second wives in order to protect them.
Women, children, land, cattle, gold, horses etc are considered beautifying for men (sura 3.14 Al Imran).
Until today many man are married to few women at one moment.
Example: guy from another emirate has his local wife from the arranged marriage at home. Apart from that he has another wife for the weekend in Dubai. If he is relatively honest, she will be legally married, but if he is not she is only a mistress. Usually it will continue for a year or few and new "wife" will be favored. What happen with the divorced wife??? In the tabloids there is an expression "toyboy", here is "toy wife"
Example: another one build on his own land 3 houses for his three wives and their children and they use the family car in turns after another. He is a good man and try to be fair, but one of the three really has captured his hearth. He spends money equally, but passes his time with the favored one. All of the wives and kids are provided.
Example: Indian Muslim has his 2 wives in one bedroom flat and takes turns to spend his nights with them. Imagine their feelings.One will try to run away, but she is not virgin any longer. Who will take her?
Typically the wife is useful and interesting until she reaches her 30 and by the time delivers few children. Many Arab women are getting divorced around that age. How they are supposed to continue their life???

Back to the subject: many of the women who opt for the surgery to restore their virginity are sill young and can find another husbands who will treat them better. But the husbands want "virgin brides" as everybody wrote and read and as the society and family demands. So what are those girls supposed to do?? Continue as widows only because they have been mistreated for a short period by irresponsible indecent men.
It may not be right and is not something that they like to discuss openly, but it is still an option. And if the deception is not known, is not considered as a sin.

I seriously advocate the freedom of choice. People shouldn't be forced by social stigmas and religious preaches which were relevant at the time when written, but hardly applicable today.
We don't live in the 15th or the 19th centuries that you guys are using in defence of your points of views.
We live in 2007.

Another strong argument: now that Dubai become so cosmopolitan city with well developed economy , what about the development in the human rights direction? All should go parallel. We cant progress if our minds are restricted.The double standard of living should be over.

Read this and think why it was written:

http://www.un.int/uae/Stde10-10-06.htm

P.S.: Muslim here with name Francheska as a mask.

Galactico · Jan 30, 2007

Either you go and understand the religion properly and argue about specific subject or stop spitting out crap which are untrue about islam.

That is So true

If you are a muslim Francheska then can you refer to "the book" has you state in your posts has the Quran becuase you are sounding disrespectful has your making out it is some normal book which you has a muslim should know that is not true.

Francheska · Jan 30, 2007

On the contrary, only due to high respect don't want to name it in a chat forum.

bear · Jan 30, 2007

And again I say

Bear wrote:The people that you are speaking of in this comment may be Muslim by name and by word, but are not Muslims in conduct.

If you are a Muslim, you should understand that.

Bear wrote:You seem to have a very corrupt understanding of how women are viewed in Islam and of Islam as a whole. This again is why my argument is that you are using the name of a religion to describe the conduct of a culture.

P.S. I'm a Texan using Bear as an alias.

shafique · Jan 30, 2007

Francheska - you seem to be missing the point that Muslim men that abuse women are doing it despite the teachings of Islam, not because of it. The majority of Muslim men are decent and not abusive to their wives - following the example of Prophet of Islam, may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him.

Also please note also that you need to differentiate between culture and religion - Malaysian, Indonesian and Iranian women are just as muslim as Saudi and Emirati women - yet the veil etc is not commonly worn and the women all drive, are politicians etc etc

Hypocrisy is something you seem to loathe - and on that point I am with you 100%.

Cheers,
Shafique

asc_26 · Jan 30, 2007

Francheska pointed out strong points especially the "reality & what's really happening now" and none of you response to that.

Really...really sad. Christianity teaches chastity and abstinence but not to condemn people particularly women who disobeyed it, because Christianity is more on FORGIVENESS. Thus, they don't need to opt for hymen restoration to deceit their husband to be.

Unless (in rare cases) they opt to marry a shallow man who will only accept her as virgin.

shafique · Jan 30, 2007

asc_26 wrote:Francheska pointed out strong points especially the "reality & what's really happening now" and none of you response to that.

Really...really sad. Christianity teaches chastity and abstinence but not to condemn people particularly women who disobeyed it, because Christianity is more on FORGIVENESS. Thus, they don't need to opt for hymen restoration to deceit their husband to be.

Unless (in rare cases) they opt to marry a shallow man who will only accept her as virgin.

asc - you need to read the Bible a little more closely or speak to a priest. The emphasis on forgiveness is on those who repent, and in this regard Christianity is no different from Islam and other religions. The Bible is pretty clear on punishments and the Church is pretty strict on divorce, remarriage and the sanctity of marriage.

And the Church is pretty big on punishment for transgressors - millions have been killed after being condemned by the Church, and Christian countries have been (and continue to be) big on Capital Punishment (eg. the US today).

As for the fact that 'it is happening' - no one has avoided this issue. There always has been and always will be people who choose not to wait for marriage. Those that pretend to be virgins are hypocrites and deceivers.

I've not seen any evidence that these people are in the majority in any culture (those that pretend to be virgins and seek to deceive their partners).

For example, the Maoris in New Zealand have a big problem with wife battering - probably the highest incidence rates of any ethnic group - but I would still not assume that ALL Maori men are sadistic mysoginists, nor would I condemn their religion or culture because of the actions of these men. Yet when some Muslim men and women transgress, it seems fashionable to blame the religion! Go figure.

Cheers,
Shafique

Chocoholic · Jan 30, 2007

There was a really interesting documentary on this a couple of years ago, and much pressure actually comes from families, who still insist on taking the bed sheets used on the wedding night and proving there's blood on them, to make sure the bride was a virgin. Women from certain backgrounds actually have the surgery and have blood packs inserted, to make sure there is something to show.

Very sad really. The tragedy is..and we've discussed this before...that women can break their hymen at any time during their life, particularly if they're into sports. It's a total misconception about girls bleeding the first time the make love, 9 times out of 10, it just doesn't happen.

shafique · Jan 30, 2007

Chocs - well said, agree with you on this.

It's a cultural thing - the parading of the bedsheet occurs in many cultures around the world and is not something that any religion imposes. It's common around the mediterranean - amongst Greeks, Turks, Jews etc.

I wonder how many of the procedures are done with the knowledge of the future husband - I think a significant proportion would know and would go along with this for the sake of family 'honour'. Just speculation on my part though.

But as you say - Sad.

Cheers,
Shafique

fayz · Jan 30, 2007

Francheska wrote:Please note: most of the Arab women are not used to work and depend on them self's.

Hmmm tell that to the 300 odd local Emarati women I work with, some in senior positions that can buy and sell my sorry arse. Maybe older generations this was more the case but now I think most younger Khalijis go to work and can take care of themselves.

I enjoyed this thread, great way to start the morning, Bear loved your comments,

Bleakus · Jan 30, 2007

fayz wrote:Hmmm tell that to the 300 odd local Emarati women I work with

Are they single or married yet?

^ian^ · Jan 30, 2007

Interesting thread, but in the wrong section.

The mod of this section must be too busy watching Nu Zilland flogging Ukanistan.

^ian^ · Jan 30, 2007

Bleakus wrote:
fayz wrote:Hmmm tell that to the 300 odd local Emarati women I work with

Are they single or married yet?

You looking for a meal ticket?

Bleakus · Jan 30, 2007

^ian^ wrote:
Bleakus wrote:
fayz wrote:Hmmm tell that to the 300 odd local Emarati women I work with

Are they single or married yet?

You looking for a meal ticket?

maybe ill be lucky to find a beautiful wife (the 3 year plan remember?)

^ian^ · Jan 30, 2007

Bleakus wrote:
^ian^ wrote:
Bleakus wrote:
fayz wrote:Hmmm tell that to the 300 odd local Emarati women I work with

Are they single or married yet?

You looking for a meal ticket?

maybe ill be lucky to find a beautiful wife (the 3 year plan remember?)

Or you might get luckier and find a beautiful wife who earns megabucks! meaning you can stay home all day and watch Foxsports or play Wii.

fayz · Jan 30, 2007

Bleakus wrote:
^ian^ wrote:
Bleakus wrote:
fayz wrote:Hmmm tell that to the 300 odd local Emarati women I work with

Are they single or married yet?

You looking for a meal ticket?

maybe ill be lucky to find a beautiful wife (the 3 year plan remember?)

hehehe, Dude you have to come visit me at the office, you'd be in heaven.... many are married but i'd say 30% are single you still have pretty good odds

sage & onion · Jan 30, 2007

Warning - Warning

Thread Hi-jack in progress :lol:

Bleakus · Jan 30, 2007

sage & onion wrote:Warning - Warning

Thread Hi-jack in progress

hahahaha oh come on Mr. Sage, just having a little fun

cyrix · Jan 30, 2007

its very dissappointing to see some of the posts on this thread.

Bleakus · Jan 30, 2007

^ian^ wrote:Or you might get luckier and find a beautiful wife who earns megabucks! meaning you can stay home all day and watch Foxsports or play Wii.

you know me too well mr ian

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