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This is an excerpt from The Four Imams by Muhammad Zahra regarding Imam Hanifa's intelligence and skill in debating.

CONVERSATION WITH ATHEISTS

Abu Hanifa was an observant man, and from the time of his youth, was fond of debate and argument in the quest for knowledge. He used to go to Basra, the home of Islamic sects, and debate with their leaders and argue with them about their views.
It is related that once he debated with the Dahrites (materialist atheists) and in order to call their attention to the neccessity of a Creator of the universe, he asked them, "What do you say about someone who tells you, "I saw a laden ship full of goods and cargo which it bore across the deap seas through crashing waves and veering winds, travelling straight through them without any sailor to direct and guide it or helmsman to move it? Would that be logically possible?""No," they said, "this is not logically possible and cannot be imagined." Abu Hanifa said,"Glory be to God! If the existence of a ship on an even keel without a mariner or helmsman is not concievable, how can it be possible for this world with all its different circumstances, changing matters and actions, and vast expanse to be without a Maker, Preserver and Originator?"

It was a ghost ship - obviously.

The only unanswered question is what triggered the big bang in the very first nanosecond. Various religions lay claim knowing the answer, scientists are working ever closer back to the moment and will probably disprove many religious theories in the future.

Everything else from that moment can be explained in science. Everything from the creation of Earth, the arrival of life and the evolution of man (I accept there are some holes at the moment, but we're 90% there and that's a whole lot more truthful than a bunch of millenia old allegories - of which every religion claims theirs to be true).

To whit, I couldn't conceive a ship sailing safely through a storm without guidance as it would defy the laws of physics. I can conceive a world without god easily.

Well unless it's in the Bermuda Triangle, because all sorts of unexplainable things happen there.

And yes you're right science can explain most things. Some things are just unexplainable and there are forces in this world (or others) that can be held responsible.

I have been reading a book by well known scholar. The book is "God Rises". Once I am done I will be posting excerpts from it. It is an excellent book. It will be able to tell you the the scientific way in deciding if God exists.
Regards

Do you have to? People can make up their own mind one way or the other.

SheikhOnDeRun wrote:I have been reading a book by well known scholar. The book is "God Rises". Once I am done I will be posting excerpts from it. It is an excellent book. It will be able to tell you the the scientific way in deciding if God exists.
Regards

Well while you're busy finding the answer to this all essential question, I will be busy wondering how this is allowed to happen.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/afric ... index.html

Should we also look up to the sky for a solution to this catastrophe or simply look at society, at governments that allowed and still allow this to happen today? Say you find your answer and prove without the shadow of a doubt that there IS a God. Then what?

Debates over the existence of God are pointless and people should realize very soon that you CANNOT prove or disprove His existence. And maybe start focusing their energy on more urgent matters.

People, this is just a debate, I hope that the author of this thread is not trying to convince anyone of anything. If this is a subject that does not hold your interest, then so be it, I personally find this subject fascinating.
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scot1870 wrote:The only unanswered question is what triggered the big bang in the very first nanosecond.

What we actually know about our universe is extremely tiny compared to what's out there. There are tons of unanswered questions, as if the question of what triggered the birth of the universe was not mind-boggling enough. We don't even know the true nature of gravity, we don't know if there are other dimensions and forces in the universe and what those are, we don't know what lies beneath the blanket of the universe, even some of the physics theories out there are known to contradict each other. Scientifically we don't know exactly how life began on earth. Interesting how many atheists would rather hold on to a purely speculative scientifically formed theory on the origins of life but they criticize anything alternative, non-scientific yet non-speculative. And this criticism stems mostly from the role that religion plays in the belief of God. It's too bad, because believing in a creator should not necessarily be associated with a religion. Believing in God involves believing that nothing can exist without a creator, nothing can choose to be born before it's created (not even a simple-celled organism) therefor any form of life can not just pop out of a puddle of mud - out of nothingness and randomly. And the belief in a creator encompasses the fact that duality exists everywhere, it exists in life, humans, in the universe, therefor the dual part of the physical scientifically rational world is the spiritual world.

Interesting post Freza, and I agree it is an interesting debate. Much of scietific thought is based on theory, until proven. But couldn't the same be said of 'God'? Also someone can be spiritual, without believing in God or belonging to a religion. I'd rather people had faith in something, than belonging to organised relion, which I personally just don't believe in.

I mean you could go through your whole life, doing all the things religion tells you to, for there to be nothing at the end of it.

As for the 'Big Bang'. well sometimes things just happen, the right materials come together in the right quanitities to create things, it happens all the time.

The universe is so fast, and we are but a blink of an eye in terms of space and time. Quantum Physics - now there's a subject.

After Frez's post it would be ridicules to say

but we're 90% there and that's a whole lot more truthful than a bunch of millenia old allegories - of which every religion claims theirs to be true).

not even 10% of the truth.

Debates over the existence of God are pointless and people should realize very soon that you CANNOT prove or disprove His existence. .

CAN u prove the opposite.


It’s because of these catastrophes that ppl remain believing in God, now i don't care about the religions but there should be the hope of something divine out there. thank god there a is a God cuz humanity is dead long time ago. n its only this believe that's keep ppl surviving.

I think you misunderstood a quote there, whch was actually 'Can you PROVE or DISPROVE that God exists'. No-one can prove it either way - yet.

Personally I'd rather people believed in humanity and in themselves and their abilities. People 'kill' in the name of God, from all religions. To me that's ridiculous. There should be respect and love for your fellow 'human-beings'. Believing in a higher power, gives some the excuse to cause atrocities, and while that still happens, I'd rather not believe in such a thing. I think it's a man made creation to implement control and nothing more.

If there is a god, why does he/she let humans do such terrible things to each other and the environment? If we are his/her creation, why is he/she not looking after us and giving us more guidance? Why does he/she even let us believe in different gods with different religious texts? Why does god insist on being a mystery to everyone. Why does god let us discover and unravel the pieces of how our world is constructed, and then let us manipulate it with our advanced science? Is he/she really cool with that? All I can say is that if there is a god, he/she might have created the Earth etc. but then he/she left a long time ago, or is just watching to see what happens without intervening at all.

Brings a quote to mind, 'God is a child playing with a giant ant farm'. Probably not far from the truth. Or the moster race of aliens are waiting to come and save us all - maybe Scientology is the way to go after all.

freza wrote:Scientifically we don't know exactly how life began on earth. Interesting how many atheists would rather hold on to a purely speculative scientifically formed theory on the origins of life but they criticize anything alternative, non-scientific yet non-speculative

You're saying religion is non-speculative? Then why are there so many religions out there with their own speculation on how life began and what God is!?

We do have a very good idea as to how life formed and what conditions caused this, as shown by the recent speculation that running water on Mars could mean there's a high chance that bacterial life has formed. I don't know how evolution sits with Islam but in Christianity there are people that refuse to accept it when there is overwhelming evidence that we are descended from other creatures. The basic fact is that life can be created with the basic elements available in the universe - carbon, hydrogen, water, heat and electricity.

I actually studied quite a lot of physics in my time and am very well aware that a grand Unifying Theory as yet alludes us, but the 2 main supporting theories are advancing and it will come. We have a good understanding of the universe as it stands, what you're talking about is the visible universe which of course is tiny compared to what is out there but our reach is getting closer and closer to finding the big bang and analysing what happened.

As for "humanity is dead and religion is all that keeps us going", you may wish to take a quick look on the damage that has been done in the name of religion and revise your thoughts - wars, religious persecution, the spread of diseases (e.g. AIDS). In many respects, religion has killed humanity. If everyone was an aethiest the world would be a much better place

Great posts scot!

dudes, the existence of god is clear

or else there wont be an earth to live on and everything would go out of control.

am i right?

How is it clear Bleakus? You must have read up on other theories for the creation of the universe, as well as evolution? If you have only read up on religious explanations I can see your perspective.

Sorry Bleakus, but no, the existance of God is not clear at all. The world is in chaos and out of control now, and I totally agree with Scot when he says that people's belief in God and religions are the main causes of most of the problems in the world today.

Countries are riddled with HIV and AIDS - why? Because religion bans the use of condoms and birth control.

People are blowing things up and killing others - why? In the name of God, because some believe theirs is the only religion and theirs should be the one 'everyone' lives by.

Just a couple of examples. But again I agree with Scot when he says the world would be a better place without the belief in God or organised religion, and people believed in humanity and themselves.

Scot, I never said religion was non-speculative, I said belief in God is non-speculative which means it is FAITH based. By faith I mean the unquestionable belief in a higher power even when science can not back up the existence of that higher power. My post attempted to extract God from religion, but yet you three seem to ONLY focus on religion. Why? Did you really not understand the point I was trying to make?

Choco, I'd rather that people be free to believe in what the want to believe in: whether not believing in God or whether believing - with the right to not be thought as backward or irrational (by certain people) for believing in a higher power.

Kanelli, these questions that you raised have been raised many times before. The oversimplified answer would be: Because God gave us free will and choice and he's not responsible for what we choose to do with our will, just like our parents, our earthly creators, are not responsible for our actions. You also fall into the same mistake of viewing God as one dimensional - as if he is only exists to bring justice, to have duties, to posses human-like qualities and to rule over religious doctrines. Religion was created by men, not by the creator himself - why fail to think of God in the logical sense?

I've noticed that some of you over-focus on the entire religion and violence themes. While it's no doubt disturbing to see any religious group being associated with violence, we forget that it's the misuse of religion that's the culprit, and mankind's role in religion, which means that as long as it's in the hands of mankind, anything will be imperfect as humans are and always will be imperfect.

But the focus here again is on God and not religion. And choco, the universe does not fall into the 5% margin of error of any given scientific experiment. The universe is precise to the minutest detail, scientifically measurable; randomness is less part of it than we might think. If things were "to just happen" in the universe, then imagine what our daily life would be like? Imagine living with uncertainty of what we know as the laws of physics? We wouldn't be able to wake up to the certainty of a sun that is rising or a day that ends when the sun sets. The birth of the universe was no accident...

Well, think about it. There are theory like the big bang that explains that the universe was created by a Big Bang of gases and stuff. Who created that...?? who created in such a way that planets and other galaxies were created and they all orbit around the sun in a controlled manner....who controls that and taught the planets to act that way?

My explanation is that everything in this world is under control by a being that is powerful. Without control, then there is nothing..

ok so u want us to believe that God doesn’t exist becuz of lack of evidence to support it.
yet u cant dismiss his existence entirely cuz ur theory also lacks the evidence to prove so. Shouldn’t ppl who scientificly justify everything have open minds n be speculative towards everything..


So if atheists rule the world there were never be wars no killings!!!!!if people are evil it has nothing to do with god, ppl kill mostly for politics n power should we dismiss both.

Ppl kill for justice n pp kill for injustice too. Some religious ppl live n die without harming a fly, how does that relate to God

Chocoholic wrote:Sorry Bleakus, but no, the existance of God is not clear at all. The world is in chaos and out of control now, and I totally agree with Scot when he says that people's belief in God and religions are the main causes of most of the problems in the world today.

Countries are riddled with HIV and AIDS - why? Because religion bans the use of condoms and birth control.

People are blowing things up and killing others - why? In the name of God, because some believe theirs is the only religion and theirs should be the one 'everyone' lives by.

Just a couple of examples. But again I agree with Scot when he says the world would be a better place without the belief in God or organised religion, and people believed in humanity and themselves.

dont be sorry dude, unless you saying sorry about shooting me in the face at paintball then yeah....

well saying that there is a god or not and talking about why war happens because of religion are too different subjects, but im happy at discuss after about that subject

ive posted my explanation already.... the quickest one for now.......i am so glad we are having this argument

I think very logically about god, and my logical conclusion is that there is no god.

If there is a god, what use is he/she to us? Is god even supposed to have a purpose for us? Even if we accept that a god exists, how should we deal with that? Should we be choosing a religion and following the teachings, preparing for some kind of afterlife? What is the point of faith and religion if it is man-made and may be misrepresenting god's real wishes? (Does god even have any real wishes for his creation?)

Religion has be used as an excuse for violence, there is no avoiding it. I don't see anything wrong with pointing that out. The simple fact remains - if there was no religion, there would be one less "group" to separate humans from each other. We already have skin colour, language, ethnicity, tribe, social status, gender etc. dividing us and creating conditions for violence.

Freza, I totally get what you're saying, and I do see your seperation between God and religion, and in fact I would prefer that people had 'Faith' as opposed to belonging to an organised religion, so on that I agree with you completely. Afterall a persons relationship with God (if it exists) is a personal one.

Mema - Atrocities would still exist, it's in mankinds nature to be destructive. But you still can't deny that fact that there are issues in this world because of religiong or a belief in God.

Bleakus - And why can't mother nature be responsible for these things? Why can't they 'just be'. You see very often when science fails to explain something or people can't explain something, it's all to easy to say 'it's the work of God'. Why does it have to be? Why can't it be natural evolution?

mema wrote:ok so u want us to believe that God doesn’t exist becuz of lack of evidence to support it.

well mema, even as a muslim you need enough evidence to be convinced that we are muslim and we believe in the islam and the quran....etc. Thats why we have a brain and we are allowed to use it. Or else we shouldnt have brain if we not suppose to think of subjects such as these....

i still think you are awesome though

Chocoholic wrote:Sorry Bleakus, but no, the existance of God is not clear at all. The world is in chaos and out of control now, and I totally agree with Scot when he says that people's belief in God and religions are the main causes of most of the problems in the world today.

Countries are riddled with HIV and AIDS - why? Because religion bans the use of condoms and birth control.

People are blowing things up and killing others - why? In the name of God, because some believe theirs is the only religion and theirs should be the one 'everyone' lives by.

Just a couple of examples. But again I agree with Scot when he says the world would be a better place without the belief in God or organised religion, and people believed in humanity and themselves.

dont be sorry dude, unless you saying sorry about shooting me in the face at paintball then yeah....

well saying that there is a god or not and talking about why war happens because of religion are too different subjects, but im happy at discuss after about that subject

ive posted my explanation already.... the quickest one for now.......i am so glad we are having this argument

OK, this post is about religion...

Kanelli, if you don't want to believe in God, then don't. Isn't it great that you have these rights to believe in what you want? But don't make judgments and oversimplifications about those of us that do have beliefs and about religions in general. You seem to be the religion hating type of atheists: The kind of people that think that they're open-minded except when it comes to people's right to believe in God or religion. It's interesting that you don't see the paradox in advocating personal freedoms while condemning the choices of people's draw to faith-based groups. Also, some of you have a preconceived notion of what religion is and does, you only see one side to it - the bad side - and much of it is fallacy and much of it is a front for plain old politics. Many of the current wars taking place in the world are not due to religious difference but to greed. Religion might be one of the many twisted aspects that some use as justifications for warfare and violence, but the main motivator is something else, it's mostly something primordial: Territorial conquest, control, power...
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What would be refreshing to see here is a more open-minded, non-judgmental atheists.

For me, people can believe whatever they want to, as long as they're not going to force their opinions on others then that's fine. Everyone's entitled to believe in whatever they want, or not as the case maybe.

If everyone was an aethiest the world would be a much better place

Highly simplistic statement that is based on absolutely nothing. Yes we live in world where many wars, many conflicts are caused by MEN in the name of religion (notice the way I put it? Religion didn't cause anything, this is the 1st thing that people need to understand).

So using a highly questionable logic, you deduced that removing religion altogether would make the world a better place. What do you make of all the people who actually do GOOD because of religion. Out of fear of this Higher Power, out of choice because they believe in an afterlife. Some people, because of religion, decide to dedicate their lives to help others. You can question the force that is driving them to do it all you want. Point is, there is good in religion. Plenty of it.

Again I will state, you want to fix things in the world today? Don't blame Islam, don't blame Christianity, blame MAN.

so Chocs is a "live and let live" mostly-non-believer, great, it's possible!

and I'm in shock that Nicolas and I actually agree on something!