Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk Philosophy and Religion Forums

shafique · Nov 26, 2006

In another thread:

valkyrie wrote:What is your position on the politicaly controversial statements of your "holy text"?

Do you feel that homos.e.xuality is "sickening", or in the words of "Allah", "abomination"?

Do you think that women are "weaker" and "more easily fooled"?

Do you think that stoning is a just punnishment for "lewd thoughts"?

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/int/long.html

I haven't read the link, but here are my quick answers:

1. Yes, I believe the Quran's view on same gender relations - it is an abomination.

2. Women are physically weaker and are more easily coerced, yes I believe this to be the case. There are exceptions to this, but generally women do not compete in sports against men because of this biological fact. As to being intimidated/coerced - I do believe men have disproportionate power to influence women.

I don't think the word used is 'fooled' and the verses you are referring to are those which have women as witnesses and the requirement for a woman witness to have another woman as an aide (the other woman is not a witness, only the first lady is - the Quran is clear on this point). The philosophy is that it will be harder to intimidate two women than one.

3. There are no punishments for lewd thoughts in the Quran, certainly not stoning (However, if you post the verse which is being reported to have this punishment, I'll comment further). I know one misconception that the Quran says adultery should be punishable by stoning to death, when in actual fact the punishment is not death but lashing.

At the end of the day, I believe the claims of the Quran. It claims to be the literal word of God and is pure and guaranteed.

Some verses have a clear context (eg. the Quran says 'Do not pray' ..but it would be misleading to quote this in isolation when the full verse is 'Do not pray if you are not in control of your senses...etc' - so the context is important).

Cheers,
Shafique

kanelli · Nov 26, 2006

Only uneducated women are likely be to more easily fooled. Keep a woman away from good education and limit her experience in areas of life, and she would make any mistake that a man would make in the same circumstances.

jabbajabba · Nov 26, 2006

shafique wrote:There are exceptions to this

Yup i am sure fatima whitbread would kick my scrawny ass on any given sunday;

shafique · Nov 26, 2006

kanelli wrote:Only uneducated women are likely be to more easily fooled. Keep a woman away from good education and limit her experience in areas of life, and she would make any mistake that a man would make in the same circumstances.

As I said, I don't think the verse talks about being fooled but is more about intimidation/coercion where coercion is defined as the use of force to restrain, dominate or threaten.

As for Ms Whitbread - she scares me!

I think it also strange that our view of Russian women has moved from the 'Russian shotputter' to a totally different connotation these days!

Cheers,
Shafique

jabbajabba · Nov 26, 2006

shafique wrote:I think it also strange that our view of Russian women has moved from the 'Russian shotputter' to a totally different connotation these days!

I have too let you know my good man that fatama won them there medals under the red,white and blue of the UK

But do know what you mean - do you remember the ole dolph lungrand (spelt wrong i am sure) and his steriod antics in rocky. What was it the machine recorded 500 pounds of pressure per punch.

Still the rocky got his face cained in but still won the cold war in the ring.

I wonder if rocky will ever make a comeback against - bin laden? Perhaps not unless they gave him big muscles, but ole bin could be quick on his feet though and trained by ex- bare knuckled irish prize ring fighters it could be quite funny to watch him nip and skip round the rockster!

Anyway going off topic a bit here....

shafique · Nov 26, 2006

Jabba - yes, Dolphy boy killed Apollo Creed and then Rocky went training old school before winning. The scene where the Russian crowd end up chanting Rocky is precious!

I remember (vaguely) when Fatima won her medals - but Tessa Sanderson is more my era.

Cheers,
Shafique

jabbajabba · Nov 26, 2006

shafique wrote:Jabba - yes, Dolphy boy killed Apollo Creed and then Rocky went training old school before winning. The scene where the Russian crowd end up chanting Rocky is precious!

I remember (vaguely) when Fatima won her medals - but Tessa Sanderson is more my era.

Cheers,
Shafique

Ahh the tessa - fine women if you ask me.

I do remember that now - the communists saw the 'cheating' errors of there ways and came to see the american dream.

After that off he went to win vietnam single handedly - or was rambo before rocky? I can't remember now - hey the eightys eh?

What a blast!

valkyrie · Nov 27, 2006

Allah turned the Sabbath-breaking Jews into apes. 2:65-66

Allah stamped wretchedness upon the Jews because they killed the prophets and disbelieved Allah's revelations. 2:61

Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell. 2:96

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2

Fight them until "religion is for Allah." 2:193

War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not. 2:216

Don't believe anyone who is not a Muslim. 3:73

All non-Muslims will be rejected by Allah after they die. 3:85

Don't be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to ruin you. 3:118

We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Their habitation is the Fire 3:151

valkyrie · Nov 27, 2006

Slavery

4:36 "(Show) kindness unto parents, and unto near kindred, and orphans, and the needy, and unto the neighbour who is of kin (unto you) and the neighbour who is not of kin, and the fellow-traveller and the wayfarer and (the slaves) whom your right hands possess."

4:92 "It is not for a believer to kill a believer unless (it be) by mistake. He who hath killed a believer by mistake must set free a believing slave, and pay the blood- money to the family of the slain, unless they remit it as a charity. If he (the victim) be of a people hostile unto you, and he is a believer, then (the penance is) to set free a believing slave."

23:5-6 "And who guard their modesty - Save from their wives or the (slaves) that their right hands possess."

24:31 "And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves."

24:58 "O ye who believe! Let your slaves, and those of you who have not come to puberty, ask leave of you at three times (before they come into your presence)."

33:25-26 "Allah repulsed the disbelievers in their wrath; they gained no good. Allah averted their attack from the believers. Allah is ever Strong, Mighty. And He brought those of the People of the Scripture who supported them down from their strongholds, and cast panic into their hearts. Some ye slew, and ye made captive some.

33:50 "O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war."

33:55 "It is no sin for them (thy wives) to converse freely) with their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or the sons of their sisters or of their own women, or their slaves."

shafique · Nov 27, 2006

Val,

The first set of arguements are not direct quotations and really don't need a reply from me - all of the verses cited are clear and if you go and read the verses themselves, the context and meaning are clear.

Let's just take a couple of examples:

Allah turned the Sabbath-breaking Jews into apes. 2:65-66

Actual translation:
[2:65] And surely, you have known the end of those amongst you, who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath. So We said to them, 'Be ye apes, despised.'
[2:66] Thus We made it an example to those of its time and to those who came after it, and a lesson to those who fear God.

'apes, despised' is a reference to them acting outwardly as pious people, but everyone knowing that they are only going through the motions. No one ever thought that this was literal - the verse starts by saying '..surely, you have known..' referring to known historical events - i.e. what became of the people being referred to.

A similar reference is in Chapter 7
[7:164] And when a party among them said to another party, 'Why do you admonish a people whom Allah is going to destroy or punish with a severe punishment?' They said, 'In order to be absolved from blame before your Lord and that they may turn to righteousness.'
[7:165] And when they forgot all that with which they had been admonished, We saved those who forbade evil and We seized the transgressors with a severe punishment because they were rebellious.
[7:167] And when they insolently rebelled against that which they had been forbidden, We said to them, 'Be ye apes despised.'

And the last one from the section:
A man cannot treat his wives fairly. 4.129

[4:129] And you cannot keep perfect balance between wives, however much you may desire it. But incline not wholly to one so that you leave the other like a thing suspended. And if you are reconciled and act righteously, surely Allah is Most Forgiving, and Merciful.

I don't think this verse needs much comment - merely stating that a man cannot treat wives completely equally, but must strive to not favour one wife over another too much. This is in the context of having more than one wife.

The verses on slavery apply when you have slaves or have positions of power over people. There are many verses which say that slaves should be set free, and I note none of these were quoted.

Similarly, all of the 'contradictions' are nothing of the sort - but I fear that in such a long thread (after so much cutting and pasting), not many will read my explanations. [sigh]

Suffice to say, any seeker of the truth can go and read the verses cited and can make their own minds up.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique · Nov 27, 2006

Valkyrie,

I forgot to mention that the Quran says that there are metaphors in the Quran:

Chapter : 3 (Al-`Imran) Verse : 7

He it is who has sent down to thee the Book; in it there are verses that are firm and decisive in meaning - they are the basis of the Book - and there are others that are susceptible of different interpretations. But those in whose hearts is perversity pursue such thereof as are susceptible of different interpretations, seeking to cause discord and seeking wrong interpretations of it. And none knows its right interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge; they say, 'We believe in it; the whole is from our Lord.' - And none take heed except those gifted with understanding -

The verses about apes for example say that Allah 'said to them.. be ye apes despised'

The verses do not say that they were turned into apes, which is what your quote said.

Cheers,
Shafique

valkyrie · Nov 27, 2006

Simple questions shafique. According to the Koran how many days did it take Allah to create the heavens and the earth?

Six days?

7:54
Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days.

10:3
Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days.

11:7
And He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days.

50:38
We created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six Days.

57:4
He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days.

or eight days?

41:9-12
Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days ... He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days ... Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days....

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran ... wlong.html

http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/

shafique · Nov 27, 2006

According to the Quran:

Man was created from clay, i.e. inorganic matter (as opposed to 'fire'), into which God breathed in the life force to make it organic. In my view this is consistent with scientific view on the evolution of life from inorganic primordial soup.

The Holy Prophet, pbuh, did not fight any angels according to the Quran. Angels are beings which do the will of God and I am not aware of a 'fight' between the Prophet, pbuh, and angels (but again, if you have a reference, I'll happily look into this).

Cheers,
Shafique

valkyrie · Nov 27, 2006

shafique wrote:According to the Quran:

Man was created from clay, i.e. inorganic matter (as opposed to 'fire'), into which God breathed in the life force to make it organic. In my view this is consistent with scientific view on the evolution of life from inorganic primordial soup.

The Holy Prophet, pbuh, did not fight any angels according to the Quran. Angels are beings which do the will of God and I am not aware of a 'fight' between the Prophet, pbuh, and angels (but again, if you have a reference, I'll happily look into this).

Cheers,
Shafique

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran ... ought.html

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/contra/man.html

Water
And He it is Who hath created man from water... 25:54

Allah hath created every animal of water. 24:45

A Clot
In the name of thy Lord Who createth ... man from a clot. 96:1-2

Clay or Mud
We created man of potter's clay of black mud altered.... 15:26

He began the creation of man from clay. 32:7

When thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to create a mortal out of mire. 38:71

He created man of clay like the potter's. 55:14

Dust
And of His signs is this: He created you of dust, and behold you human beings, ranging widely! 30:20

Allah created you from dust.... 35:11

shafique · Nov 27, 2006

A quick Google came up with this article which deals with the creation verses in the Quran and answers a certain 'Mr Katz' who claims there were contradictions in the Quran concerning the creation of man.

http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=article&aid=102

I don't see any contradiction - rather different explanations of the origins of humankind and also explanations of conception (two different aspects of 'creation' of human beings).

Still intrigued about the fighting with angels though.

Cheers,
Shafique

valkyrie · Dec 02, 2006

chapter 4, An-Nisá section 3

"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way."

Notice the "(other) way" at the end. This leaves mans imagination to play around with it- whipping, stoning - and for what - s.e.xual desire and thoughts?

"If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful."

Complete and utter inequality.

shafique · Dec 02, 2006

Valkyrie,

Based on the evidence of my previous post linking to the answer to the question about creation of man, you should realise that whereever you are cutting and pasting from is guilty of quoting the Quran out of context.

I suggest you at least do us Muslims the courtesy of looking at one of the many websites that have English translations of the Quran (you can pick any one) and read the verses in context. Note I'm not asking you to look at the many commentaries about verses, but just see the verse in context.

Also note that English translations aren't always accurate - you need a commentary to explain some words which don't have an exact, one-word, translation into Arabic (eg. the verses you quoted have the English word 'lewd' - if you do a little research you will find other translations)

As you have acknowledged my previous post (about the creation of man which answers your cut and paste list of apparent contradictions), I am not inclined to explain these two verses, because you may similarly ignore the explanation and go to the next apparent contradiction.

If you go back to my posts in this thread, you will see that I have looked into all the 'contradictions' raised by opponents of Islam. I maintain that there are no contradictions in reality. Just read the verses in context (and read the commentaries which give you the arabic words and their exact meanings - if you want to be thorough). If still in doubt, consult an Arabic lexicon or non-Muslim arabic speaker for confirmation.

By all means you should critically examine any belief system - I know I do - but don't fall into the trap of believing what opponents of a belief system say about another, try and get the information from the source, then make up your mind.

Cheers,
Shafique

Dubai Forums Dubai Discussions Dubai Politics Talk Philosophy and Religion Forums

Islam And "Political Correctness"

Go To

Dubai Discussions

Dubai Expat Forums

Dubai Business

Dubai Tech Discussions

Dubai Classifieds